Buying & Selling Real Estate
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback
Updated about 3 years ago, 09/30/2021
COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
@Bryan Beal
You’re exaggerating. I live in LA too and nobody’s being arrested for going outside. I go for a run everyday in a public park and half the people aren’t even wearing masks. I’ve yet to see anyone stopped on the street and told to go home. Go see your brother.
@Carolyn Fuller
The CDC is predicting that there will be 63,000
deaths this flu season, so how do you get that
Wuhan virus is rapidly becoming the number
1 killer in the U. S. And we don’t even have those as confirmed because if anybody dies from pneumonia or respiratory illnesses, they are
listed as wuhan virus.
#5 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Investor
- Greenville, SC
- 12,898
- Votes |
- 4,867
- Posts
#5 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Investor
- Greenville, SC
50% of Americans choose to not get the flu vaccine. 80+% of children who die from the flu are un-vaccinated. Most flu deaths that occur are a choice. COVID is 2.5x more contagious than the flu. COVID is 10x more deadly than the flu. Comparing the two is not appropriate.
Almost all people 70+ have "pre-existing conditions", even if un-diagnosed. Aging does this...it's not about being ill or unhealthy.
COVID mortality rates are extremely high per Dr. Gottleib (former head of the FDA):
- 1% overall
- 4% ages 60-70
- 10% ages 70-80
- 14% ages >80
- 1-in-250 to 1-in-550 for some his age (47) - said "that's enormous"
Even without death, the hospitalizing rate (15% of those tested) and critical care rate (5%) are extremely high...as is the hospitalization length of stay. We don't have anything close to adequate medical capacity without containment. This is by far the largest and least discussed problem with COVID. Without containment, people will get sick and have no access to medical care.
It's a complex issue and not binary...we do need to go back to work at some point soon. And the phase-3 therapeutic tests have been promising.
I don't feel at risk at all. But it's not about me. I stay at home for my wife and kids, for my parents who are in the upper 70s and therefore at risk, for my step-grandmother who is healthy and in her 90s but at risk, for my at-risk co-workers, and for my friends. For the heath care providers who are dying. For those who courageously worked without masks. For those who now wear masks all day and have indentations and open scabs on their faces from mask abrasion. For those who don't have COVID but require other medical care or hospitalization. For those who put their lives and their family's lives at risk helping the sick.
"With freedom comes responsibility." -Eleanor Roosevelt
people forget we have 37k deaths in 1 month WITH the measures in place. multiple that by 12 or take away the lockdown...see where the deaths could be..?
Originally posted by @Kathy Young:
@Scott Wolf if you want to make government
Larger and have more control of the people andtake away their rights, you place
fear in them. When the Spanish flu hit, the government did not shut down; not even when the second round hit. The CDC predicts there
will be 63,000 deaths this season due to the flu.
This has not made the news. The deaths have
been 36,000. These are not confirmed because
if someone dies from pneumonia or respiratory
problems, they are listed as the wuhan virus. New York has padded their numbers by 57%. So have other cities. What the increase in alcoholism, drug abuse, domestic violence, child abuse? I agree your rights can’t endanger other people’s rights; but I refuse to have the government tell me what business is essential; every business is essential to the person trying to support their family. I’m not wearing a mask when I go out in public. If other people want to, they can: then they are protected from me. The constitution was written for a reason and so was the Bill of Rights.
I’m not wearing a mask when I go out in public. If other people want to, they can: then they are protected from me.
WRONG! WRONG! So rude!
Public health experts have also emphasized that the potential benefit of wearing a face covering is not for your own protection but to safeguard others around you. “This is to protect people around you if you are infected but do not have symptoms,” according to the CDC website.
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
Here's where you went off the tracks ...
"The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories."
The truth is deaths have been documented from 3 months of age - essentially, newborns.
"The VAST Majority" does NOT equal 100%.
Disease does not know age, political affiliation, economic status, race, faith or any other boundaries. No one who has never had it before has ANY resistance or immunity. Period - end of statement.
While certain tendencies have been noted, the extent to which any individual will be effected is entirely unpredictable. Period - end of statement.
ANYone putting money ahead of human life needs to re-examine their values. Period - end of statement.
@Kathy Young The disease is Covid-19. Not sure how you can continue to think the stories coming out of Covid-19 hotspots around the country are not accurate. I can assure you that none of the stories paint a picture that looks anything like a normal flu season.
Good luck.
@Ana Marie B. What I think is interesting is that we’ve become a country who puts the needs of the few above the needs of the many. A small group wants to throw a temper tantrum - scream, shout, and yell when they don’t get their way and because they’re the loudest, we cater to it. Not because we should but because we’ve lost the ability to have a conversation about anything. In fact, there is no reasoning with the unreasonable - which I’ve seen a lot of. In my experience, the loudest one in the room is the weakest one in the room. Seems like there are a lot of screamers here. “Respectfully” call me selfish and spoiled, huh? Looks like you don’t know what “respectful” is.
Glad to see this thread turned into the normal tribal us-vs-them, we are right, they are wrong debate, with both sides not ever ceding one inch to the other, all in the name of being "right", which moves us all further from the truth.
This isn't an either-or scenario. This is a massively complex issue, spanning law, epidemiology, economic, healthcare, finance, politics, manufacturing...areas no one person can have mastery, with far reaching second and third order effects that can't be encapsulated in the low fidelity ideas of "Shelter in place= the only option" or "give me back my civil liberties NOW rah rah Ayn Rand"
Complex ideas require the ability to be nuanced and understanding that the other side may also have a point of view which you may not agree with because you don't comprehend it well.
I'm going to call out @Jim K. because I know he cares about the truth. Referring to people who have chosen to take a civil liberties view on this topic as swine and alluding to the idea that they have never offered “one iota of value” to BP is wrong, unproductive, and intellectual lazy. Further more it shuts to door to anyone who may hold a different idea than you, but wants to learn more. If you want to see others do well, why be unnecessarily polarizing?
We all have to admit to ourselves that, when it comes to COVID-19 and its impact, we are swimming in the shallow end of the understanding pool, together. It is only with the help of each other and the associated diversity of thought, that we will arrive at the best understanding of the problems and help form the best solution.
Seek to understand rather to than to be understood.
#1 Personal Finance Contributor
- Rental Property Investor
- East Wenatchee, WA
- 16,090
- Votes |
- 10,239
- Posts
#1 Personal Finance Contributor
- Rental Property Investor
- East Wenatchee, WA
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. .
Just as important as freedom to's are freedom from(s).
Freedom from slavery, oppression, religious persecution, being robbed or worse without consequence and freedom from being infected by people that think they are ok and willing to take the chance.
It's not you (or me probably) that needs protecting. It's the new baby, your parents, grandparents and others that aren't as healthy. It's bigger than us. Think of others.
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
You live in Los Angeles. Aren't your freedoms and civil liberties challenged every day you live in the Republic of California?
Originally posted by @Bill F.:
Glad to see this thread turned into the normal tribal us-vs-them, we are right, they are wrong debate, with both sides not ever ceding one inch to the other, all in the name of being "right", which moves us all further from the truth.
This isn't an either-or scenario. This is a massively complex issue, spanning law, epidemiology, economic, healthcare, finance, politics, manufacturing...areas no one person can have mastery, with far reaching second and third order effects that can't be encapsulated in the low fidelity ideas of "Shelter in place= the only option" or "give me back my civil liberties NOW rah rah Ayn Rand"
Complex ideas require the ability to be nuanced and understanding that the other side may also have a point of view which you may not agree with because you don't comprehend it well.
I'm going to call out @Jim K. because I know he cares about the truth. Referring to people who have chosen to take a civil liberties view on this topic as swine and alluding to the idea that they have never offered “one iota of value” to BP is wrong, unproductive, and intellectual lazy. Further more it shuts to door to anyone who may hold a different idea than you, but wants to learn more. If you want to see others do well, why be unnecessarily polarizing?
We all have to admit to ourselves that, when it comes to COVID-19 and its impact, we are swimming in the shallow end of the understanding pool, together. It is only with the help of each other and the associated diversity of thought, that we will arrive at the best understanding of the problems and help form the best solution.
Seek to understand rather to than to be understood.
What an outstanding post. This is spot on. We are dealing with a global health and economics crisis that has never been seen before and nobody has any idea how everything is going to play out in regards to unforeseen consequences. There is so much we don't understand and we are all moving in one big grey area. Black and white answers are out the window and treating ideas/decisions as absolutely right or absolutely wrong is both unproductive and distracting to the greater effort. Thank you for pointing this out Bill.
Whether you are pro quarantine or anti quarantine, it seems almost everyone can agree that the governments response has been an absolute **** show. That **** show could have easily been avoided. Anyone who has read my posts on here knows that one of my favorite topics is RISK. Risk premiums, analyzing risk, risk yields. Understanding risk to make informed judgments to deploy my capital based on thst risk.
Well everthing that has happened was completely predictable and is merely a factor of what some consider to be one of the 5 largest risks that face the market place currently. I personally feel it was the largest risk we faced.
Michael Lewis essentially detailed 3 years ago that this entire **** show would occur. What is the Fifth Risk? Project Management.
- Russell Brazil
- [email protected]
- (301) 893-4635
- Podcast Guest on Show #192
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
Originally posted by @Bill F.:
Glad to see this thread turned into the normal tribal us-vs-them, we are right, they are wrong debate, with both sides not ever ceding one inch to the other, all in the name of being "right", which moves us all further from the truth.
This isn't an either-or scenario. This is a massively complex issue, spanning law, epidemiology, economic, healthcare, finance, politics, manufacturing...areas no one person can have mastery, with far reaching second and third order effects that can't be encapsulated in the low fidelity ideas of "Shelter in place= the only option" or "give me back my civil liberties NOW rah rah Ayn Rand"
Complex ideas require the ability to be nuanced and understanding that the other side may also have a point of view which you may not agree with because you don't comprehend it well.
I'm going to call out @Jim K. because I know he cares about the truth. Referring to people who have chosen to take a civil liberties view on this topic as swine and alluding to the idea that they have never offered “one iota of value” to BP is wrong, unproductive, and intellectual lazy. Further more it shuts to door to anyone who may hold a different idea than you, but wants to learn more. If you want to see others do well, why be unnecessarily polarizing?
We all have to admit to ourselves that, when it comes to COVID-19 and its impact, we are swimming in the shallow end of the understanding pool, together. It is only with the help of each other and the associated diversity of thought, that we will arrive at the best understanding of the problems and help form the best solution.
Seek to understand rather to than to be understood.
Bill, the reason I'm calling these people swine is that I have never seen an iota of real estate investing value out of their posts, something that someone else might be able to take and apply to their real estate investing. They are here to find an avenue for their political posts, to get what they can from this site, not to offer what they can to this site. That's the body of contributions they've offered here.
They are here to talk about civil liberties, not about real estate. Other than the current topic and others like it, they have nothing or at least very little to contribute to these forums.
Show me where I'm wrong.
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
And then there's @Account Closed.
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Bill F.:
Glad to see this thread turned into the normal tribal us-vs-them, we are right, they are wrong debate, with both sides not ever ceding one inch to the other, all in the name of being "right", which moves us all further from the truth.
This isn't an either-or scenario. This is a massively complex issue, spanning law, epidemiology, economic, healthcare, finance, politics, manufacturing...areas no one person can have mastery, with far reaching second and third order effects that can't be encapsulated in the low fidelity ideas of "Shelter in place= the only option" or "give me back my civil liberties NOW rah rah Ayn Rand"
Complex ideas require the ability to be nuanced and understanding that the other side may also have a point of view which you may not agree with because you don't comprehend it well.
I'm going to call out @Jim K. because I know he cares about the truth. Referring to people who have chosen to take a civil liberties view on this topic as swine and alluding to the idea that they have never offered “one iota of value” to BP is wrong, unproductive, and intellectual lazy. Further more it shuts to door to anyone who may hold a different idea than you, but wants to learn more. If you want to see others do well, why be unnecessarily polarizing?
We all have to admit to ourselves that, when it comes to COVID-19 and its impact, we are swimming in the shallow end of the understanding pool, together. It is only with the help of each other and the associated diversity of thought, that we will arrive at the best understanding of the problems and help form the best solution.
Seek to understand rather to than to be understood.
Bill, the reason I'm calling these people swine is that I have never seen an iota of real estate investing value out of their posts, something that someone else might be able to take and apply to their real estate investing. They are here to find an avenue for their political posts, to get what they can from this site, not to offer what they can to this site. That's the body of contributions they've offered here.
They are here to talk about civil liberties, not about real estate. Other than the current topic and others like it, they have nothing or at least very little to contribute to these forums.
Show me where I'm wrong.
Fair enough, I hadn't thought about it from that point of view.
Just to make sure we are on the same page, when you refer to "I have never seen an iota of real estate investing value out of their posts" and "That's the body of contributions they've offered here" do you mean their posts in this thread or every post they have ever made?
I agree that this whole thread is a waste of time and should not be on BP. This is a RE site and this entire thread has nearly 0 value add to anyone's RE knowledge. The best thing in my view to do is to lock it an move on, but I'm not a mod, so its not my call.
If you mean all of their posts on BP, I think that is wrong, but I'm not going to go through all their posts to "prove you wrong; I have far better things to do than that. Then again, it is not my job to prove you wrong, that's not how rhetoric works. The burden of proof lies with the party who made the claim, you must prove you are right.
I have seen a noticeable uptick in new accounts that have a rapid fire number of posts in politic-ish thread whose tone and content tend to stoke pre existing divides. This has lead me to wonder if BP has reached a large enough size that they are the target of something like the Internet Research Agency.
Never the less, I believe that it is better to attack ideas and not people, since the worst case outcome is that you discover you were wrong and change your mind, which isn't a bad outcome at all.
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
Some random thoughts.
When this first broke I was for a complete shutdown for 14 days in order to find what we are up against, not 14 months. At any rate that 14 day universal lock down did not happen.
Stanford just released yesterday 20-50% in one county may have already had it with no symptoms. Which lowers death rate between .12 to .2 and the flu is at .1 %. Which poses the question how many deaths does it take to close down society? 60k flu deaths no closure, do we close down commerce if there are 80k deaths with corona? My question is what is the number that requires closure?
Here is one response I got back from an expert when I asked about the modeling. "Yes, I firmly believe that the modeling is way off, and I say this as a disease modeler"
It is still fluid data and it appears some experts are going to be revising some expertise. Half the deaths are in New York. Do we close down NYC if half the deaths are in South Dakota? It may not be one size fits all solution.
I still think everyone should still be practicing social distancing, masks and some of the more vulnerable isolation but is it becoming the cure is worse than the disease? There is a point where a person's ability and freedom to feed themselves is superior.
Good luck!
@Scott Passman
Well said. I although we were already in a bubble and the economy needed a correction way before the Coronavirus.
@Bryan Beal
Look man. These idiots where I live are not staying home. They are out spreading the virus. If the politicians could leave politics out of this then we could all stay home for two weeks and really get a good handle on this.
The thing is is we have way too many essentials that aren’t essential. I completely understand the small businesses that want to stay open to survive. I understand. We own a motel. We house construction workers. We are empty now and we were full before.
We need to as a nation bite the bullet and close everything except the hospitals and police and fire departments for 2 weeks. This would let us get out in front of this and buy some time. It would be a lot cheaper and easier in the long run. And we need to do an investigation on China and why and how we really got this bug. And hold them accountable. And I’m not talking about some bs commission like the 911 commission where it’s really just a fiction book that cost the tax payers a ton of money.
I am staying home. This virus is real. It is really killing a lot of people. We can’t just pretend like everything is fine. We do not need to go to sporting events.
One thing about this is if trump doesn’t make his voters stay home then they will just go out and get the virus. He will lose a lot of voters. Really how many people that didn’t vote for trump think that this isn’t really a big deal. Trump’s voters think that the media is making a big deal out of this. I believe that trump will lose a lot of voters to the virus because they will just not stay home.
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Originally posted by @Tanner Johnson:
@Jim K. You miss the point completely. The argument isn’t whether we should be social distancing or not, I am also “ all about social distancing.” But I am highly against government forcing liberty infringing orders on its people. To conclude, yeah Ben May have been all about social distancing, but I can assure you he would not have been all about government infringing on the liberties in the name of temporary safety. You’re missing the point completely.
Old Ben's DEAD. Just like all of us are going to be, sooner or later. I'd prefer it to be later.
Jim,
The CDC just issued a somber statement. Out of the 323 million population of the US, 323 million are expected to die. Sucks but 100% true. No one gets out alive. LOL
Godspeed,
Gary
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
Here's where you went off the tracks ...
"The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories."
The truth is deaths have been documented from 3 months of age - essentially, newborns.
"The VAST Majority" does NOT equal 100%.
Disease does not know age, political affiliation, economic status, race, faith or any other boundaries. No one who has never had it before has ANY resistance or immunity. Period - end of statement.
While certain tendencies have been noted, the extent to which any individual will be effected is entirely unpredictable. Period - end of statement.
ANYone putting money ahead of human life needs to re-examine their values. Period - end of statement.
Tell that to the millions of immigrants who risk life and limb trying to get to the "Land of the Free" for economic reasons. More people die of poverty then any virus.
Easy to say virtuous things if you have some cash in your pocket and an overstuffed fridge. Not so easy on everyone else.
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Here is one response I got back from an expert when I asked about the modeling. "Yes, I firmly believe that the modeling is way off, and I say this as a disease modeler"
It is still fluid data and it appears some experts are going to be revising some expertise. Half the deaths are in New York. Do we close down NYC if half the deaths are in South Dakota? It may not be one size fits all solution.
I still think everyone should still be practicing social distancing, masks and some of the more vulnerable isolation but is it becoming the cure is worse than the disease? There is a point where a person's ability and freedom to feed themselves is superior.
Good luck!
Matt, here's the study you're talking about:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1
"Background Addressing COVID-19 is a pressing health and social concern. To date, many epidemic projections and policies addressing COVID-19 have been designed without seroprevalence data to inform epidemic parameters. We measured the seroprevalence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 in Santa Clara County. Methods On 4/3-4/4, 2020, we tested county residents for antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 using a lateral flow immunoassay. Participants were recruited using Facebook ads targeting a representative sample of the county by demographic and geographic characteristics. We report the prevalence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 in a sample of 3,330 people, adjusting for zip code, sex, and race/ethnicity. We also adjust for test performance characteristics using 3 different estimates: (i) the test manufacturer's data, (ii) a sample of 37 positive and 30 negative controls tested at Stanford, and (iii) a combination of both. Results The unadjusted prevalence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 in Santa Clara County was 1.5% (exact binomial 95CI 1.11-1.97%), and the population-weighted prevalence was 2.81% (95CI 2.24-3.37%). Under the three scenarios for test performance characteristics, the population prevalence of COVID-19 in Santa Clara ranged from 2.49% (95CI 1.80-3.17%) to 4.16% (2.58-5.70%). These prevalence estimates represent a range between 48,000 and 81,000 people infected in Santa Clara County by early April, 50-85-fold more than the number of confirmed cases. Conclusions The population prevalence of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in Santa Clara County implies that the infection is much more widespread than indicated by the number of confirmed cases. Population prevalence estimates can now be used to calibrate epidemic and mortality projections."
People can still argue about how "truly" random their sample was, but nonetheless the numbers are interesting. My thoughts have always been that the virus has been here far longer than February and a lot more people have been sick and exposed to it already. Then, we also record people that die while being covid-19+ as a coronavirus fatality. Here's one Doctor's take on that (yes, he's a republican senator, but a doctor, still): http://www.citypages.com/news/sen-scott-jensen-takes-coronavirus-deaths-doubt-to-fox-news/569545501
regarding face covering. i'm surprised that the leading doctor on WH coronavirus team was saying we don't need those back in Feb and was downplaying the potential pandemic here (but now they've figured everything out and we need to trust them 100%):
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/
Study on home-made masks vs commercial.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_the_Efficacy_of_Homemade_Masks_Would_They_Protect_in_an_Influenza_Pandemic
"This study examined homemade masks as an alternative to commercial face masks. Several household materials were evaluated for the capacity to block bacterial and viral aerosols. Twenty-one healthy volunteers made their own face masks from cotton t-shirts; the masks were then tested for fit. The number of microorganisms isolated from coughs of healthy volunteers wearing their homemade mask, a surgical mask, or no mask was compared using several air-sampling techniques. The median-fit factor of the homemade masks was one-half that of the surgical masks. Both masks significantly reduced the number of microorganisms expelled by volunteers, although the surgical mask was 3 times more effective in blocking transmission than the homemade mask. Our findings suggest that a homemade mask should only be considered as a last resort to prevent droplet transmission from infected individuals, but it would be better than no protection. (Disaster Med Public Health Preparedness. 2013;0:1-6)."
I'm staying isolated, but once the dust settles, I hope we take a look back and see what could've been done better.
@Bryan Beal
It is fine to have a discussion about when to reopen the economy, about what constitutes risk and at what cost the lockdown....
That said i have seen the government do nothing whatsoever inconsistent with its role in protecting public health. Consider the measures taken in 1918, compared with which this situation is a minor inconvenience.
And yes, I am equally concerned with the consequences for our economy, and very very bored at home.
Those who think of government as unnecessary and taxation as theft would do well to consider how well their liberties and property would be defended if we were talking about Ebola instead of a particularly vicious flu. The problem is nobody knows how bad the problem is until it is far too late to stop.
To put things in perspective, try reading the introduction to the Decameron. Then read the rest of the book. It’s highly entertaining and you do have time.
- Rental Property Investor
- New Orleans, LA
- 454
- Votes |
- 620
- Posts
I agree @Bryan Beal. I had Corona and was bed ridden for 2 weeks but was not in any real danger and never went to hospital. My wife was only sick for 2 days and while my kids showed no signs of illness there is no way they didn't have it. The upside of this is I have had no symptoms for 2 weeks and feel fine now. I should have immunity and am not contagious so should be free to go about my business and get this economy moving again.
My 2 cents is that we have built lots of hospital capacity and should keep elderley and at risk people quarantined and let the rest of us get back to normal life. Once lots of us healthy people have had it and recovered it is not going to spread as easily as there aren't as many hosts. Now it will be safer for the at risk people. Don't let the cure be worse than the diseat
- Stephen Keighery
And why didn't they shut everything down during the Spainish flu pandemic? Every health care person that i have talked to says if we continue to dtay isolated, our bodies cannot build up antibodies for this. There is a different flu virus that comes out almost every season. People have a 50-50 chance if you take the vaccine. How long are we supposed to stay isolated? Child abuse has increased, domestic violence has increased, suicide has increased, drug abuse has increased, alcoholism has increased. What about their lives? The Wuhan virus, you may get, these that I just mentioned, are actually happening.