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Elaine Goepfert
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PLEASE HELP...being foreclosed on because property is upside down

Elaine Goepfert
Posted

Jan 2023 I purchased a property in Cape Coral, FL. I purchased for $395,000 and rehabbed for $70,000. I took out a hard money loan with Kiavi for one year. I put up for sale with no bites then transitioned to a STR strategy then Kiavi told me they don't refinance unless it's a LTR so I found a renter and went to refinance. Right at a year I start the process of a refi and quickly find out that the renter wasn't paying high enough rent to cover Kiavi's requirements so I had to relist the property. I lost the renters due to them not wanting to cooperate for showings. Despite all of this I was still able to find another lender to refinance until the appraisal came in at $445,000 and everything fell apart. When I purchased the property one year earlier Kiavi gave it an ARV of $610,000! I did all the repairs per spec and under budget and was even able to add four palm trees to the front, a pool heater and fence in the backyard which should have made the value go up! However, the area has plummeted in value and I'm now upside down on this house. I've had it listed for months with one showing and one offer of $380,000.


I have never missed a payment but Kiavi will not negotiate their terms and insist on foreclosure and they just informed me they are moving forward with the foreclosure.  I put in $50,000 of my own money not to mention months away from my three kids while working on the home.  I'm proud of the house I created, it's beautiful & I even have a 5.0 rating on Airbnb.  I honestly feel like I've done everything right and am completely stuck.  I'm devastated and if anyone has any words of wisdom here I would just SO APRRECIATE any help/advice I can get.  I just don't know what else I can possibly do.

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Jay Hinrichs
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Jay Hinrichs
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Replied
Quote from @Drew Sygit:

You could also approach lender about a deed-in-lieu of foreclosure IF they will agree in writing NOT to personally pursue you for any loss.


that would be a great outcome if they would do that Drew.. Although lender will need to get a title commitment on the DIL to make sure there are not any junior liens that only a foreclosure would remove from title..  I have been successful for other clients negotiating a get out of debt free card for the DIL.  But that was GFC  we are now it appears entering into an area at least with SW FLA were you may see much more of these upside down situations  anyone with 80% loans will be basically upside down  given sales costs to sell and erosion of values.  As Don mentioned above 20% or less of equity in a market that is flat or falling is NO equity if you need to exit.

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Elaine Goepfert
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Elaine Goepfert
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Let me clear a couple of things up just because this post is half to get ideas of what to do next which I got a couple great ones, thank you!  But also, I'm being super vulnerable as this is quite painful but I'm also hoping that someone else might benefit from reading this and learn from my experience.  

1. @Joe S. I definitely never intended to take an entire year to refinance. My first strategy was to STR the property and refi but the STR rents were less than 1/2 of what was projected. As mentioned in an earlier post, that area fell by 40% in STR in the last year. Then I tried to sell it I believe at $550,000 but no takers there and this is when I learned the neighborhood I bought in wasn't ideal. I live in MN and fully trusted my original realtor when he said it was a great area and I bought right after the hurricane so every corner had garbage and debris waiting for city pick up, now a year removed, it's much clearer that my neighbors are not interested in cleaning up their properties as other areas are now. I would caution anyone buying remotely to have a local realtor who has been in the area for a long time to weigh in and not someone who just moved there themselves. That is definitely a lesson I am taking out of this. Lastly, I switched to a LTR & because Kiavi said that they only refi on LTRs but I needed to establish that and just like that poof, a whole year gone. Yes, definitely would do it different and just sell at a loss had I known.

2. I think it's worth maybe saying that the overarching goal for me was to STR/LTR and refi and eventually move down there after my kids are done with school so it was okay to me to have it not be a homerun as a business because I was kind of looking at it as a second home that made some money. Of course, now I know better with a hard money lender to do it this way.

3. @Nicholas L. Kiavi has a cash requirement.  Meaning that your rent values has to cover all your expenses plus a certain percentage.  I don't remember exactly what it was now but like @Don Konipol they are looking at it like a business and if the property doesn't perform as a "healthy business" then they are out on refinancing. I didn't realize this until I started the refinance process and was locked into a rent rate that didn't meet these requirements. And yes, they won't even consider STR properties.

4. I DID call several lenders and did lock in a refi deal.  It was the crap appraisal value that made everything fall apart.  No one is interested in refinancing a home that appraisal rate is lower than what you owe on it.  

5. @Drew Sygit what is a deed-in-lieu?  I don't think I've heard this one before.

5. I guess I just want everyone to know that I'm not new either. I did flip two other properties just this year in MN. This is my first property not in my state and first one I attempted to refinance into a STR/LTR. I just have never heard of anyone talking about this happening before in recent years. I was around for 2008 and was a general contractor back in those days too but I wasn't investing yet.

Again, thanks for all the responses!  I hope this feed might help others too. 

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James Hamling
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James Hamling
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Replied

@Elaine Goepfert you say you "got", or still have offer to refi. That is still available, right? The only issue is the DSCR (debt service coverage ratio), correct?

Let's stop starring at the whole, and look at the simpler lessor amount, ok. 

To improve DSCR there is 2 simple functions, either MORE in rents, or LESS in loan.

So ok, how much LESS in loan is needed to make DSCR work? Is it $100k?

From what I read I assume $100k get's it all done, right? 

So ok, can you get that? If not, I'd say get out there and sell your azz off to get that private-$ to come in. Lot's of ways one can offer various ways to make it worth it to one, saying something to effect of making ___ payments, offering cross-collateralization etc etc.. 

To take a BK, a foreclosure, seems a really HUGE hit over what is effectively just $100k. 

And keep in mind there IS ways persons can lend that $100k via IRA's. There is a LOT of ways to raise $100k, there is.

That's where I would focus, not on BK or short-sale, those are X-Y-Z level plans and I'd focus on D-E-F first BUT..... But you gotta HUSTLE on it. Every waking moment, no joke. 0 time off, no TV, no hanging out, just eat, sleep, work, on THIS, repeat. 

Hell, you could offer 12% interest, interest only payments for 2-3yrs then agree to a balloon payment. It solves the now, and pushes the issue out with time to address it in full. And it's a lot easier to sort floating that monthly interest payment then a near $500k total right. 

My opinion, this is simplest approach, address the $ needed to make refi clear, and raise that capital. BUY TIME. 

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James Hamling
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James Hamling
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Replied
Quote from @Elaine Goepfert:

I did flip two other properties just this year in MN.  This is my first property not in my state and first one I attempted to.....


 Wait..... your in MN..... 

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Drew Sygit
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Drew Sygit
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Replied

DIL means you offer the lender the deed NOW instead of them spending time & money going through foreclosure process.

Since time is money, lenders sometimes do this.

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Jassem A.
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Jassem A.
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Contest the appraisal and find a lender that isn't abhorrent. No reason you should have to lose out like this when you did everything mostly right.

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@Elaine Goepfert

understood on the vulnerability and for the record I do think it takes courage to post these types of situations.

hopefully you are getting some ideas.

how much longer do you have with the short term loan - 1 month, 6 months?  i'd call a bunch more lenders and at least have one more appraisal done unless you truly feel you've exhausted the refinance path.

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    Quote from @Nicholas L.:

    @Jay Hinrichs

    @Chris Seveney

    this is not my area of expertise but OP said "they don't refinance unless it's a LTR"

    i don't understand this. if Kiavi gets paid off what does it matter, whether the property is an LTR or STR?

    maybe OP needs an attorney to look at whatever she signed?

     @Nicholas L. Kiavi will finance STR properties, BUT they require it to cash flow based on LTR rates. So, unless there is a history of STR income (usually at least 12 months), most guidelines won't allow STR income to qualify. However, there are some out there that will use AirDNA type sites to calculate income. At the end of the day, though, the appraised value might be the biggest hurdle at this stage in this scenario.

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    @Jon Dages

    understood.  i am assuming she is trying to refinance out of whatever loan she's in, into a new loan with a brand new lender.  we don't know how long she has left, or how many lenders she has called.

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    @Nicholas L.

    Issue is she is underwater on the property so no one will refinance her - even if it was $400k max she will prob get is $320k so she needs another $150k cash to bring to the table if she owes $470k

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    Mark Cruse
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    This area has had hundreds of thousands of dollars in depreciation over a few months?  I have never heard anything even close to that since the great recession. 

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    I am going to throw this out there , investing is always a gamble , you dont always win . I always have a back up plan with real estate . I am not going to get into different loans or rates . Me , I want to preserve my credit rating , ( and money ) if things go south , the best I can . ( Hasnt happened but I do prepare ) 

    My suggestion , consider selling your primary where you live and move to Florida . Hopefully you have equity in your primary and it will cover the difference . Dont know your total situation , this idea may suck big time , BUT , if this prevents a major hit on your credit or a bankrupcy , you still have a roof over your head and it gives you time to regroup . 

    I will never buy a property I wouldnt live in with my family , condition and location . Why ?  As time changes I may have too . Hopefully it wont , but its possible if things ever crash . 

    Sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done 

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    Replied
    Quote from @Matthew Paul:

    I am going to throw this out there , investing is always a gamble , you dont always win . I always have a back up plan with real estate . I am not going to get into different loans or rates . Me , I want to preserve my credit rating , ( and money ) if things go south , the best I can . ( Hasnt happened but I do prepare ) 

    My suggestion , consider selling your primary where you live and move to Florida . Hopefully you have equity in your primary and it will cover the difference . Dont know your total situation , this idea may suck big time , BUT , if this prevents a major hit on your credit or a bankrupcy , you still have a roof over your head and it gives you time to regroup . 

    I will never buy a property I wouldnt live in with my family , condition and location . Why ?  As time changes I may have too . Hopefully it wont , but its possible if things ever crash . 

    Sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done 


    YUP during the GFC I had to sell my  bad pad and move into one of my rentals :)  

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    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Mark Cruse:

    This area has had hundreds of thousands of dollars in depreciation over a few months?  I have never heard anything even close to that since the great recession. 

    More than just the Titantic has sunk. Don't focus on what you think may be true. That means things happen over and over again through time and we are approaching another huge equity drop. Just MHO.

     Im not focusing on it or worrying about it. Iḿ a senior level investor that´s been in the game for some time and leveraged appropriately. My point was, I had never heard of that before, at least from a credible investor. However, If you are advising others of this equity drop, maybe you should present your case or evidence as to where your theory comes from. This mass equity drop has been predicted for well over a decade every month. 

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    Mark Cruse
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    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Mark Cruse:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Mark Cruse:

    This area has had hundreds of thousands of dollars in depreciation over a few months?  I have never heard anything even close to that since the great recession. 

    More than just the Titantic has sunk. Don't focus on what you think may be true. That means things happen over and over again through time and we are approaching another huge equity drop. Just MHO.

     Im not focusing on it or worrying about it. Iḿ a senior level investor that´s been in the game for some time and leveraged appropriately. My point was, I had never heard of that before, at least from a credible investor (in recent times). However, If you are advising others of this equity drop, maybe you should present your case or evidence as to where your theory comes from. This mass equity drop has been predicted for well over a decade every month. 

    Likewise, please present your case that real estate always goes up. ;-)

    Mine is simple gravity. What goes up must come down, ballons pop, engines blow up. Ice cream melts. Hmmm, adding $1,000,000,000,000 in debt every 100 days, Ah schucks, ain't nothin' to worry about.

     Very scientific!  lol

    My stance was not that everything always goes up. As an experienced investor who is successful, it would be emphatically stupid for me believe that since I have lived trough crashes. My point was, I have never heard from any grounded, credible investor that any areas has dropped over 200k in a few weeks after they took on a flip. 

    Carry on lol ...............................................

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    Robert Ellis
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    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Minna Reid:
    Quote from @Elaine Goepfert:

    I've begged several times for them to please just refinance me.  I never missed a single payment and they made $50,000 in interest off of me over the last year so instead of foreclosing on me recking my credit for the next 7 years and them being forced to sell a house for less than what I still owe, it seems like a great win-win option but I was shot down over and over because the appraisal was just too low.  

    I did ask about short sale and they said they would need to see a HUD statement and purchase agreement to do that but I was confused how I would generate those two items without an agreement from Kiavi on the short sale amount? I could only agree to the purchase price if I knew that Kiavi would accept the short sale but Kiavi won't entertain doing a short sale without a purchase agreement. I've gone in circles on this. That's why I'm reaching out, I just don't understand how I can be so stuck??? I feel like I'm missing something. How can I put $50,000 and pay another $50,000 in interest and still be foreclosed on in one year? It's a nightmare.

     They cant approve your short sale because there is no sale to approve. Find yourself a real estate agent that understands short sales ASAP, list the house at a price it will sell, find a buyer and go under contract subject to the short sale approval. Then approach your lender with the short sale.  You are going to need help as you do not know what you are doing. An experienced short sale agent near you can handle all this for you.Find one today.  Feel free to PM if you need help finding one. 


     This is probably the route to go.

    And yes this does happen, SW Florida especially cape coral is a definition of a falling knife. I know @Bob Stevens guy is all  cleveland stuff but we've said this for the past 6-12 months-- this area is going to crash. Vegas was like this too but they're getting other industries in there too be more resilient.

     Very unfortunate what happened, hope you get out of this as easy as possible.

    V.G> the issue with this area Lee county.. has a lot to do with supply.. in the early 50s developers put in literally 500k lots.  Lehigh Acres has 250k lots itself. So there are thousands upon thousands of vacant lots and these lots have been traded since the 50s  at tax sales or land guys buying cheap and selling for more on terms etc etc.. Compared to Vegas and there is hardly any land left so you wont see the same dynamics to Vegas as you did in the Crash.. And Lee County just had a flood of folks come in because of all these vacant lots then folks marketing it the last 10 years hard. So right now its over built with way to much inventory and now prices are falling HARD


     not just prices but also the rental prices are falling. even better reason to switch from single family entitlements in this area and switch to 2 units and up those are in strong strong demand right now in Lehigh acres. I still don't get the florida duplex with garages all one story. people need to learn to build 2 stories especially for economies of scale, drop the garages to force additional equity, etc. jay is right about Lehigh and the main thing is there's no net migrations. I'm 31 I never met one person who moved to Lehigh acres under 50 years old. no jobs, infrastructure, commercial, etc and no utilities either. just a land play that a developer made millions on in the past 

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    @Elaine Goepfert

    I'm sorry you're going through this. Thanks for sharing so that others can learn from your experience.

    As far as the appraisal, were you present when the appraiser walked the property? I know you said you live in Minnesota. It was recommended to me to be there in person for an appraisal and have a print out of everything I renovated in the house. Can you get another appraisal? Not sure if it appraised for a little more than $445,000 if that would help? 

    I don't know anything about your financial situation but I agree with James Hamling's comment that filing bankruptcy would be a very last resort and foreclosure only if you exhausted other options. 

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    Crystal Smith
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    ModeratorReplied
    Quote from @Elaine Goepfert:

    Jan 2023 I purchased a property in Cape Coral, FL. I purchased for $395,000 and rehabbed for $70,000. I took out a hard money loan with Kiavi for one year. I put up for sale with no bites then transitioned to a STR strategy then Kiavi told me they don't refinance unless it's a LTR so I found a renter and went to refinance. Right at a year I start the process of a refi and quickly find out that the renter wasn't paying high enough rent to cover Kiavi's requirements so I had to relist the property. I lost the renters due to them not wanting to cooperate for showings. Despite all of this I was still able to find another lender to refinance until the appraisal came in at $445,000 and everything fell apart. When I purchased the property one year earlier Kiavi gave it an ARV of $610,000! I did all the repairs per spec and under budget and was even able to add four palm trees to the front, a pool heater and fence in the backyard which should have made the value go up! However, the area has plummeted in value and I'm now upside down on this house. I've had it listed for months with one showing and one offer of $380,000.


    I have never missed a payment but Kiavi will not negotiate their terms and insist on foreclosure and they just informed me they are moving forward with the foreclosure.  I put in $50,000 of my own money not to mention months away from my three kids while working on the home.  I'm proud of the house I created, it's beautiful & I even have a 5.0 rating on Airbnb.  I honestly feel like I've done everything right and am completely stuck.  I'm devastated and if anyone has any words of wisdom here I would just SO APRRECIATE any help/advice I can get.  I just don't know what else I can possibly do.



    I'm going at this late but have you considered asking the lender to take a Deed in Lieu to avoid the foreclosure on your credit and just move on.
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    Alex Gurvitz
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    A deed in lieu may be a good idea. I would suggest that you first discuss it with your attorney.

    Best of luck to you!

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    Hey Elaine, sorry to hear you're going through this stressful situation. Did it ended up going to foreclosure? Did it sell for more of what was owed? if so, let's chat.

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    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Mark Cruse:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Mark Cruse:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Mark Cruse:

    This area has had hundreds of thousands of dollars in depreciation over a few months?  I have never heard anything even close to that since the great recession. 

    More than just the Titantic has sunk. Don't focus on what you think may be true. That means things happen over and over again through time and we are approaching another huge equity drop. Just MHO.

     Im not focusing on it or worrying about it. Iḿ a senior level investor that´s been in the game for some time and leveraged appropriately. My point was, I had never heard of that before, at least from a credible investor (in recent times). However, If you are advising others of this equity drop, maybe you should present your case or evidence as to where your theory comes from. This mass equity drop has been predicted for well over a decade every month. 

    Likewise, please present your case that real estate always goes up. ;-)

    Mine is simple gravity. What goes up must come down, ballons pop, engines blow up. Ice cream melts. Hmmm, adding $1,000,000,000,000 in debt every 100 days, Ah schucks, ain't nothin' to worry about.

     Very scientific!  lol

    My stance was not that everything always goes up. As an experienced investor who is successful, it would be emphatically stupid for me believe that since I have lived trough crashes. My point was, I have never heard from any grounded, credible investor that any areas has dropped over 200k in a few weeks after they took on a flip. 

    Carry on lol ...............................................

    Lol My post wasn't for you. It was for the lurkers, of which there are many. Thumbs up.

    Hey Bob, ever heard of a little thing called inflation? 

    Look, Mark was pointing out that it's self-inflicted injury not some mysterious market factor, that's just reality of the math. OP is stating a >30% decline in <12mnths. 

    But most importantly it is not any decline, it's the REAL price doesn't match that pie-in-the-sky hoped for crazy comp OP started with on it. Which is a DD issue, not market price or market issue. 

    OP should have rock-solid comp's for ARV BEFORE entering flip. Every flip and I mean EVERY flip I have ever done I can tell exactly what ARV is projected at, why, and what justifies it. Including market vectoring at entry time.

    OP obviously randomly bought a place, using hopeium as primary power of analysis, and to no surprise things did not end well. 

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    Elaine Goepfert
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    @James Hamling I'd like to know what your opinion is on how to get a "rock-solid" comp? I was sent comps from my realtor supporting the ARV and surpassing it. Then to support that I received a appraisal supporting that number. So, to recap, I trusted my realtor and the comps sent to me by him and the lender and the ARV appraisal given to me by them.


    So outside of being a realtor myself, how would you have accomplished getting this "rock-solid" comp?  I'm here to learn.

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    James Hamling
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    James Hamling
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    Quote from @Elaine Goepfert:

    @James Hamling I'd like to know what your opinion is on how to get a "rock-solid" comp? I was sent comps from my realtor supporting the ARV and surpassing it. Then to support that I received a appraisal supporting that number. So, to recap, I trusted my realtor and the comps sent to me by him and the lender and the ARV appraisal given to me by them.


    So outside of being a realtor myself, how would you have accomplished getting this "rock-solid" comp?  I'm here to learn.


    That right there was your first mistake, you didn't do one, you blindly accepted what others told you. 

    And keep in mind, those others had a profit motive for seeing it appraise as it did, they were not impartial. 

    You never EVER do a flip without having done your own comp. This is paramount. 

    You yourself have to do the research. 

    And a flipper market comp is totally different, if done correctly. 

    Because your NOT just looking to get comps to peg a recent sold like if listing, no. 

    Your are ALSO doing comp's to peg exactly what value the market places for different conditions of that home, what value it places on say an updated kitchen vs outdated, or facelift vs full reno, high end vs mid level. And finding what components in what condition = what $ and time in sold. 

    Than your looking back 18 months at solds and your doing segregated comp studies of 18mnths ago, 12, 9, 6 and last 3 months. Yes, it's a lot of work but it's a lot of key data. When you do this you will KNOW not guess what the market values in components and condition, and how much they value it as. So you can peg if doing that is ROI or not, what holds how much ROI from reno.

    And your pegging market vectoring. When bisecting the historical comps you can see what trend is rising, falling, crested and descending or taking off. 

    because when you flip, your a housing fortune teller. You have to know at start what the end months away will be, you build today for tomorrow. 

    You did none of that. 

    2 people with a profit motive told you "a" comp for that day, with 0 data of the other things. WORTHLESS. 

    When I was "Mr Flip", I walked in day 1 of a property, folder under arm, my team trailing frantically taking notes because i was just walking room to room detailing every last detail of exactly what we were going to do, what I expected in finished product, and why we were doing it that way. 

    Yes, I knew everything to the last detail because I spent those hours before hand doing my homework, getting the data and the data told me what to do, what not to do, and how to do it, to what level. 

    And at end, I can't tell you how many people begged to know how I pulled off sold in 72hrs at my price. Were talking 2010,11,12 ok, and I was getting multiples in hours/days.     

    because, I put in the work. I was working FOR the market and I was listening to the market. 

    I had a one where a big name broker gave his thoughts and than I told him what it was going to be. He asked how i could possibly know to that detail how it would sell in coming weeks. I said "oh, you want detail, ok how about this" and I data dumped. I told him my buyer was going to be a white collar professional in late 20's to early 30's, 0-1 kid, income of this, credit of that, drives these types of vehicles, etc etc, ADN than the ballzy shot of shot's, I gave 3 places of employment. I kid you not. 

    A few weeks later, sold, he followed up and asked. Buyer was just about to turn 30, female, no kids, and worked at one of the employers I said, drove one of the cars I named....... 

    THAT is the power of data.  

    You give me access to enough data and I can tell you what you'll eat for breakfast in a week and what color clothes you'll pick for that day. 

    A flipper, a PROFESSIONAL flipper is NEVER surprised by the end, ever. Even the surprises are predetermined. 

    Data, data, data. 

    The hardest part when starting at it is keeping self 100% unbiased, just letting the data take you where it will. It's super easy to work to be biased in the data, way too easy. It's really hard to wash out all emotion. 

    I have an appraiser on my team and her job is to argue with me, literally, no joke. Her entire job function is to try and prove me wrong, find a flaw, argue the opposite. Yes, I pay a person to keep me humble, lol. That's the level of data dedication you must hold for accuracy. 

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    Bruce Woodruff
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    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Elaine Goepfert:

    @James Hamling I'd like to know what your opinion is on how to get a "rock-solid" comp? I was sent comps from my realtor supporting the ARV and surpassing it. Then to support that I received a appraisal supporting that number. So, to recap, I trusted my realtor and the comps sent to me by him and the lender and the ARV appraisal given to me by them.


    So outside of being a realtor myself, how would you have accomplished getting this "rock-solid" comp?  I'm here to learn.

    @Elaine GoepfertYour comment: "I was sent comps from my realtor supporting the ARV and surpassing it. Then to support that I received a appraisal supporting that number."

    Those that say you have to do your own comps are not professionals. A realtor's job is to properly advise you. A professional will take responsibility for what they did. 

    You did what you should do. You paid professionals to do their job. They failed you.

    The solution is to not use real estate agents in the future. Seriously.

    I have not used agents in 30 years because of this type of nonsense.

    You paid someone to do their job and they weren't up to the task and won't take responsibility. Don't fall for the trap that they blame you.

    True statement. I would rarely if ever trust comps that are provided by the realtor that you're using. They have a huge amount riding on simply getting you to agree with them, they don't have to be right and they don't spend any time trying to get the perfect comp numbers. 

    And my experience with appraisers is that they are all conservative and lowball the number. Remember their job typically is to make sure that the property will cover the loan amount. And that's all they care about, not the real value of the property.

    As James said, it's imperative that you learn how to do your own comps, the only person you should trust is yourself.

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    Chris Seveney
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    Chris Seveney
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    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Elaine Goepfert:

    @James Hamling I'd like to know what your opinion is on how to get a "rock-solid" comp? I was sent comps from my realtor supporting the ARV and surpassing it. Then to support that I received a appraisal supporting that number. So, to recap, I trusted my realtor and the comps sent to me by him and the lender and the ARV appraisal given to me by them.


    So outside of being a realtor myself, how would you have accomplished getting this "rock-solid" comp?  I'm here to learn.

    @Elaine GoepfertYour comment: "I was sent comps from my realtor supporting the ARV and surpassing it. Then to support that I received a appraisal supporting that number."

    Those that say you have to do your own comps are not professionals. A realtor's job is to properly advise you. A professional will take responsibility for what they did. 

    You did what you should do. You paid professionals to do their job. They failed you.

    The solution is to not use real estate agents in the future. Seriously.

    I have not used agents in 30 years because of this type of nonsense.

    You paid someone to do their job and they weren't up to the task and won't take responsibility. Don't fall for the trap that they blame you.

    True statement. I would rarely if ever trust comps that are provided by the realtor that you're using. They have a huge amount riding on simply getting you to agree with them, they don't have to be right and they don't spend any time trying to get the perfect comp numbers. 

    And my experience with appraisers is that they are all conservative and lowball the number. Remember their job typically is to make sure that the property will cover the loan amount. And that's all they care about, not the real value of the property.

    As James said, it's imperative that you learn how to do your own comps, the only person you should trust is yourself.

    I just had a call with one of the companies we use to sell our REO's. Over the past six months the realtor list price to final sales price was 30% delta which we told them flat out was unacceptable. They had every excuse in the book but these properties were cleaned out and there was nothing "hidden" and the agents they used were not ideal. Shame on us as well for not doing our own, but my point is, you need to look at everything everyone does for you.

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