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Updated about 3 years ago, 09/30/2021
COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
@Bryan Beal what bothers me is that the numbers are being exaggerated and falsified and that’s what I dont understand. On the CDC, they are basically saying if you have even one flu like symptom and pass away during this pandemic, they are counting it as a COVID 19 death. Many people have died with covid rather than dying FROM it. The media literally is scaring people! I take it serious, and take precautions because I have asthma and pregnant, however. Viruses are the most abundant in the world and something we will always have to deal with. The flu is SEASONAL which is also contagious, deadly with the vaccine and without it! I kinda agree that this might be something that we have to just try our best to avoid and our bodies will have to fight it off just like other viruses and diseases.
none of this is about 'protecting lives'... it's all political posturing... politicians beating each other to show who is taking action so they are safe for the next election. covid19 is just a flu+... where was the panic in 2018 when we had 80000 death.... all that overburdening the health system is all bs.
@Bryan Beal I agree with many points that you have made, as well as those made by those who have disagreed with you. I have a deep sympathy for all those affected by the virus as well as everyone indirectly. I can understand the need to have the lock down, but I find myself asking the same questions over and over. What happens to those who have lost their jobs, their businesses and their way of life, how will they provide for their families well being etc. I also find myself thinking how bad the economic situation might become once everyone's benefits runs out.. will crime rates rise, will suicide rates rise, will your neighbors out of necessity become your enemy?
I personally would much rather be responsible for mine and my families well being than the government, but again that is my personnel opinion, and I can also understand everyone elses view point as well.
I have many friends who are small business owners who's lives have been changed instantaneously in a week, some even loosing up to 75% of profit within a week or two, and I worry for their well being and their families.
I look at the current statistics and many times it also just does not make sense to me when compared to past viruses or other issues, but consider what if we lift the lock down too soon and it becomes catastrophic.
I'm not sure what the right answer is anymore, Not saying anyone is any less important than anyone just sharing some thoughts and concerns, and am open for conversation.
@Bryan Bealhttps://www.banned.video/watch?id
@Bryan Beal
Your privilege to express your freedom is blatant disrespect for all the front line health care workers in this country who are risking their lives to help victims of this virus. Think about that.
Also- as other users noted- this is a real estate website. Take your politics about your selfish and privileged “freedoms” elsewhere. Your freedoms come at the expense of others, and you’re a true a** to not realize that.
California will not miss you.
@Bryan Beal
I've read your posts and yYou really don't understand what this GLOBAL PANDEMIC is about. This disease is a highly contagious respiratory disease, and if you get it, you have a 18% chance of getting the Type II which if it become necessary to require a respirator, you have a 82% chance of dying.
Economic loss you can recover from,... Dying you cannot recover from.
Your basic argument is that everyone's life has an economic value to the State and that for the good of the State that value can be cashed in if it does not suit your value of whats good for you. That's the very definition of a Totalitarian State
Remember that when YOU or YOUR family member come down with Covid19 virus and there is not the hospital space or equipment needed because your local hospital is overflowing , then YOUR death was good for the State.
lots of sensationalization here... human life is not priceless... look at the death tolls this year... far more deaths from traffic accidents, alcohol and smoking... why are we not banning cars, sigs and alcohols.
Originally posted by @Don Zou:
none of this is about 'protecting lives'... it's all political posturing... politicians beating each other to show who is taking action so they are safe for the next election. covid19 is just a flu+... where was the panic in 2018 when we had 80000 death.... all that overburdening the health system is all bs.
The daily death toll was 2,405 on Tuesday, according to the Johns Hopkins tally.
with social distancing.
2,405 * 365 = 877,825.
Where do you get your facts /news?
do u believe we landed on the moon? Do you believe in Italy the health care system was overwhelmed?
Originally posted by @Kirk R.:
Originally posted by @Don Zou:
none of this is about 'protecting lives'... it's all political posturing... politicians beating each other to show who is taking action so they are safe for the next election. covid19 is just a flu+... where was the panic in 2018 when we had 80000 death.... all that overburdening the health system is all bs.
The daily death toll was 2,405 on Tuesday, according to the Johns Hopkins tally.
with social distancing.
2,405 * 365 = 877,825.
Where do you get your facts /news?
do u believe we landed on the moon? Do you believe in Italy the health care system was overwhelmed?
so you conveniently multiply by 365, for a disease that clearly will peak then diminish... check worldometer death tolls.
@Libby Truesdell what a mature, well thought out and constructed response. We should all aspire to be of such intellectual engagement - I disagree so I'm going to call you names. Lovely. San Fransisco is the perfect place for you and they are just so lucky to have such a progressive thinker like yourself.
Originally posted by @Brian Van Pelt:
Such a straw argument, try again.
traffic accidents is not contagious
alcohol is not contagious
smoking is not contagious
you are dead you are dead, doesn't matter contagious or not... number is the number.
you can argue contagious or exponential all you want... you cant exponential to infinity... check worldometer.. death toll is far less than many of the other risks people take everyday.
you try again... or maybe not, with your limited IQ points.
@Bryan Beal Do you want to have open discussions with the idea of learning from others and considering another position or just to argue your point? Because so far nobody really agrees with your "my life isn't going to be as good as it was" tantrum of a post. And I completely agree with them.
We're all feeling it in one way or another. You clearly don't have anyone close to you who've suffered or succumbed to COVID. At some point you have to understand massive loss of life is the priority, with economy a distant second. Yes, a distant second. Businesses will be lost, people will struggle financially, but they'll be alive with their loved ones to continue the struggle.
We aren't at a point to safely loosen government restrictions. If we attempt to get things back to normal (not gonna happen for years) too soon it will only result in another spike of the curve, which will negatively impact the economy longer!
We need testing! This is paramount.
Listen, I'm sure we've all had the private thought of whether opening up the economy is worth having more people die if it gets ppl working and businesses making money again. It's not.
Originally posted by @Don Zou:
Originally posted by @Kirk R.:
Originally posted by @Don Zou:
none of this is about 'protecting lives'... it's all political posturing... politicians beating each other to show who is taking action so they are safe for the next election. covid19 is just a flu+... where was the panic in 2018 when we had 80000 death.... all that overburdening the health system is all bs.
The daily death toll was 2,405 on Tuesday, according to the Johns Hopkins tally.
with social distancing.
2,405 * 365 = 877,825.
Where do you get your facts /news?
do u believe we landed on the moon? Do you believe in Italy the health care system was overwhelmed?
so you conveniently multiply by 365, for a disease that clearly will peak then diminish... check worldometer death tolls.
ok. FROM YOUR SOURCE:
What are you looking at?
only way this peaks & diminishes is from behavior change. While you say it's political posturing....... yeah it really looks like it's peaking & diminishing (sarcasm)
Another straw argument
traffic accidents are not contagious or exponential to infinity either or possible to affect world population
alcohol is not contagious or exponential to infinity either or possible to affect world population
smoking is not contagious or exponential to infinity either or possible to affect world population
coronovirus is contagious up to the global population and can mutate to do it again year after year.
Your turn "stable genius"
@Bryan Beal
Agree with you Bryan. People need to get woke. As others have said, the deaths from other causes of harm from the economy being shut down will vastly out way the covid deaths. If we can even trust those numbers - I’ve heard some questionable things from doctor friends about being given guidance to count even suspected covid deaths as such.
Sadly, I feel the root of this is the fear of death, and the media’s desire to sensationalize, because it sells. So, some wrong models and predictions at the beginning blew this way out of proportion, freaked us all out and now we don’t know what’s going on. Glad to see Texas is opening up. People in my home state have started protesting to be allowed back to work to pay their rents and mortgages and put food on the table.
I find it sad how quickly people get down right nasty when anyone questions a belief held by the majority. Right now it’s covid. Last year if you said vaccines you were liable to get shot. Whatever the topic is, if you’re not in the main, you’re a lunatic, hater, terrible person who is selfish and doesn’t care about any one else. Some peaceful disagreement and debate would be nice once in a while.
@Bryan Beal - I appreciate your point of view. I live in New Jersey. One the managers at my job died from COVID-19, one coworker has it and another’s spouse has it (so he probably also got it.) Testing is still very hard to come by unless you exaggerate your illness or actually already have pneumonia. Reported fatalities are like 7% in my area and cases are about 10,000 per 1m pop (1/100) have had or currently have it. Extrapolating to an estimated actual 2% fatality rate means approx 3.5x more people have already had it, or approx one in four people. At some point soon we’ll have a vaccine or have herd immunity. I just don’t want my spry 88 year old grandma to die from pneumonia because she visited with my teenage nephews who met up with some friends at the playground. If immunity actually exists, it would be valuable to develop a population with herd immunity ASAP aka swine flu or whatever. The disease has to run its course or a vaccine needs to be developed and distributed, or both. Plenty of consequences exist from the tactics to save lives (so you’re not forced to die at home from pneumonia because the hospital is full). Because of emergency shutdowns, a huge number of Americans were laid off and also incentivized to be laid off by the extremely generous unemployment benefits (close to 10,000 bonus pay). With formerly ineligible 1099 contractors like myself who are agents being incentivized to file unemployment claims, those rates will continue to skyrocket. Ultimately I understand there’s a place where the medicine is worse than the pain. Regardless of which way you believe, the country’s leadership will be “wrong” no matter what they do. Florida just reopened its beaches and I’m sure there will be a spike in cases. As long as there are enough hospital beds that’s probably fine. After the disease tears through the world, unless it mutates, it should become a non issue. It is amazing the loss of civil liberties, reduction in travel, etc. especially the insidious “just closed for 15 days to slow the spread” marketing and the poor testing. I bet there would have been even less initial compliance with a “you’ll be home for 2-4 months” mandate. At least we can still go places wearing masks. The guys at Costco said that employees kept testing positive. I’m sure amazon warehouse, Walmart and Target workers and grocery cashiers will continue to catch it and spread it both symptomatically and asymptomatically. I watched a video of “day in the life of person in Wuhan” and the twenty something lady hadn’t been out of her apartment complex in like 12 weeks. It’s a moral and ethical dilemma to let people choose to take risks as the uninformed will always blame you for not teaching them, not providing them with masks/ppe etc. What if schools are open? Then any family of a teacher or admin who dies maybe will sue for wrongful death. There will be so many bankruptcies from medical bills, car/credit/rent debt bills, etc. As real estate investors we are partially hedged against monetary inflation (overall prices go up, usually rents go up). Good luck and be safe everyone.
Originally posted by @Llewelyn A.:
I have to say that sometimes, we should think a bit outside the box.
During the time when the Spring Breakers were doing their thing, AND we knew they were spreading the Virus.... What do you think was the WORST thing to do?
SHUT DOWN the spring Breakers at the time that they had all passed the virus to themselves and tell them to go home to where ever they came from.
Imagine you had 50 Petri dishes.
One of those dishes, call it Florida, had a spreading red spot and all the others were very clear and stable.
Then you took a drop of the Florida dish and put a tiny drop in all the other 49.
I think we can clearly see that this is probably the WORST policy one could have imagined to have done.
The BEST policy would have been to just allow the Florida dish to turn red and then after two weeks, turn back to Clear.
So, if you think about it, instead of spending several TRILLIONS of dollars to try and contain 50 dishes from getting to a red state.... it would have been much better to spend less than a Trillion to let the Spring Breakers enjoy themselves for the 2 or 3 weeks locked down in their party place while they developed the HERD Immunity.
In fact, I don't even think you would need more than a Billion or even less to make these Spring Breakers Happy and keep them contained for 3 weeks!
You would have contained the virus and made a whole bunch of Spring Breakers happy... and probably got a few babies out of that as well.
The Funny thing about this way of thinking is that if you had thrown MORE money to let the Spring Breakers have MORE freedom to party, we could have actually slowed down the spread of the Virus much better than forcing them to go home to the other 49 Petri Dishes.
In this way, I agree with Bryan. Thinking to shut down everything when we knew the Virus was spreading only made it WORSE, not better.
Allowing the Party Animals to Party, giving them Money to continue under the lock down in those areas, seems to be a WIN-WIN scenario. The Party Animals win as they are happy to Party on our dime... the nation wins because the Party Animals develop Herd Immunity BEFORE they go home.
Or am I way off here?
BTW, there are lock down related deaths that are NOT being counted. For instance:
1) Increased Child Abuse deaths due to the fact that School closures resulted in higher cases of Child Abuse
2) Domestic Violence Deaths as Families are force to stay together without respite generally from going to work
3) Increased Suicide from the Stress of losing jobs
etc.
Count ALL the deaths... not just the Coronavirus related deaths. The lock down related deaths should be compared to the Coronavirus related deaths. If it gets close in comparison, then you have to wonder if the lock down was worth it.
This is very well said and insightful. I agree with you. This is actually only the tip of the iceberg though.
@Bryan Beal
Not sure if you changed your mind later, but theres plenty of people that go out knowing the risks involved. Those people are called trash , why would you knowingly spread a disease with no vaccine.
I 100% disagree with your logic those who want to go back to work should and those who dont shouldn't. It wouldn't work like that if you're "essential" and not important essential like medicine and food.
You're already forced to work at risk.
If it was optional, businesses would stay open and not pay the workers who choose to stay at home unless they got infected.
Personally the economy and businesses can go bankrupt and be forgotten for all we care as long as mitigating infectious diseases potentially saves any amount of lives.
People who arent turning a profit right now can take out a business loan or find a temporary corporate job. There are risks in running a business this is a risk that owners should take economically not workers with their lives.
You're talking just like the college students who went on vacations and to parties because YOLO who cares we know the risks and it doesnt seem that bad, but maybe I'm being harsh. The point is a total shutdown for an extended period of time would mitigate the situation.
Mortality rate is up in the air.
You quote .11%
Sure if you look at total infected vs deaths it might be that low, but people who get COVID don't immediately die upon infection.
Why dont you take a look at mortality from the recovered vs deceased patients. It paint's a bit worse of a picture.
But then again this isn't just another opinion I throw out into the internet debating morals and opinions.
I care about it, but it's hard to change anything unless you're in the right government position with connections.
The bottom line is who cares about the economic ramifications, for the most part anything that will effect quality of life,will stay in tact.
The country and world will continue to function and equally imperfect as it has been. Why not stop the spread a bit , give people vacation s who will work most their lives and watch some businesses burn it'll teach people important lessons
Originally posted by @Peter Rodriguez:
@Bryan Beal
Not sure if you changed your mind later, but theres plenty of people that go out knowing the risks involved. Those people are called trash , why would you knowingly spread a disease with no vaccine.
I 100% disagree with your logic those who want to go back to work should and those who dont shouldn't. It wouldn't work like that if you're "essential" and not important essential like medicine and food.
You're already forced to work at risk.
If it was optional, businesses would stay open and not pay the workers who choose to stay at home unless they got infected.
Personally the economy and businesses can go bankrupt and be forgotten for all we care as long as mitigating infectious diseases potentially saves any amount of lives.
People who arent turning a profit right now can take out a business loan or find a temporary corporate job. There are risks in running a business this is a risk that owners should take economically not workers with their lives.
You're talking just like the college students who went on vacations and to parties because YOLO who cares we know the risks and it doesnt seem that bad, but maybe I'm being harsh. The point is a total shutdown for an extended period of time would mitigate the situation.
Mortality rate is up in the air.
You quote .11%
Sure if you look at total infected vs deaths it might be that low, but people who get COVID don't immediately die upon infection.
Why dont you take a look at mortality from the recovered vs deceased patients. It paint's a bit worse of a picture.
But then again this isn't just another opinion I throw out into the internet debating morals and opinions.
I care about it, but it's hard to change anything unless you're in the right government position with connections.
The bottom line is who cares about the economic ramifications, for the most part anything that will effect quality of life,will stay in tact.
The country and world will continue to function and equally imperfect as it has been. Why not stop the spread a bit , give people vacation s who will work most their lives and watch some businesses burn it'll teach people important lessons
Closing all the roads, confiscating all automobiles, and banning driving would certainly save many lives. Why don't we do that too?
@Andrey Y.
I mean if you really want to
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's easier to solve than a virus.
Autonomous driving would solve that issue.
Those deaths are preventable. A cure-all panacea on the other hand is a lot harder to make.
But I like your enthusiasm you've got spunk.
Originally posted by @Peter Rodriguez:
@Andrey Y.
I mean if you really want to
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's easier to solve than a virus.
Autonomous driving would solve that issue.
Those deaths are preventable. A cure-all panacea on the other hand is a lot harder to make.
But I like your enthusiasm you've got spunk.
Answer the question straight please. Why don't we do that? Are you in favor of that? Let's close the roads and forgo most of the sectors of the economy, and just pay people to sit at home with printed money. This would probably save more lives than letting people sit at home social distancing. Yes I am an enthusiastic person.
First off I wouldn't compare covid deaths to auto accidents that just silly.
Second off it was your idea , maybe not the smartest idea. Dont let me spoon feed you. Tell me why you want to shut down automobiles?
Ok, this thread has gotten out of hand rather quickly. So I'll do my part to bring it back to reality and away from the political crap flinging. I originally provided an argument with some data thrown in but apparently this has devolved into a political thread based upon emotions and not logic. Let's all just take a deep breath and leave the political wrangling to the talking heads on TV where it belongs and return this to RE since this discussion has turned into a mess.
To those who have rentals here, how many of your April rents have you received? It's over halfway thru the month and thus all of your April rents should be accounted for, or confirmed as not going to be paid. Also, has construction and some other normal RE maintenance activities returned in your neighborhoods?