All Forum Posts by: Keith Lewis

This might seem a little picky but I really want everyone reading this post to understand. Joe you mentioned laminate above. This is not laminate. The chart refers to LVT(LVP) products ( though the Adura may be a WPC which would be an engineered product). The older laminate had MDF or HDF core, basically pressed wood which indeed would be affected by water. LVP is all vinyl, like a raincoat, so no water issue in regards to swelling. ALL LVP is waterproof, it's the INSTALLATION that is water resistant. Many products are now putting disclaimers  regarding standing water. The WPC and similar products usually mention nor more than 3 days tops. Spills are never an issue with these new products, it's always how many days the water remains or how well the planks were locked together to start. I've always told clients if you can see a black line no matter how thin between the planks they are installed properly and need a little attention. The Unilin 2g locking system is one of the most efficient ones on the market.

I 100% agree the the subfloor/ underlayment/ substrate being attached to as well as how  it was attached to the builder floor(naturally we're not talking cement) is usually the problem in a failed installation.

Nice Chart, The unfortunate part of your chart is that there are many more products out there that don't sell to Home Depot or Lowes for various reasons that I won't discuss here. In addition, not all rigidcore products are constructed the same. The majority are extruded to hep the manufacturer reach certain price points. A small number use the hot press process that is distinctly superior in my opinion in overall strength in dimensional structure and durability.Your chart does note finish which is an excellent point as it's the finish and not the wearlayer that gives a product it's scratch resistance( AO and Ceramic Bead being one of the best but it also depends on how many coats are put on which many makers do not detail). Also the pad only serves one true purpose (sound deadening, NOT WARMTH and certainly not improved comfort underfoot that is not discernible to most clients), the more level the floors the less need for the pad). I also note you've charted mostly SPC/rigidcore and not WPC products which while quieter in many cases has a greater tendency to dent.

Something that no one really looks at is the amount of limestone is used in rigidcore/spc products. Some boards are like concrete with a photo attached while a few still have some flexibility which helps avoid locking issues when going over unlevel substrates.

When you charted info regarding sunrooms and gluing down click lock, this can be a two edged sword. While using a glue with a floating floor will help with separation issues in variable temperature. If one does not do their due diligence and test for hydro-static moisture, the plank could release in different areas causing heaving of the installation. (Have inspected this more than once). Also NEVER use a pressure sensitive glue unless you are using it as a wet set which is a permanent install. A hard set adhesive works much better.

One thing I see you didn't chart and all users of floating floors need to check their installation instructions before purchasing if whether the product is warrantied for installation on stairs, many are not. In addition for those that are AND HAVE AN ATTACHED PAD, you need to strip part or all of that off before gluing it to the step(you can't float on a step). Gluing the pad to the step might cause it in time to delaminate(since it's glued to the plank with a pressure sensitive) and release from the step especially when people are coming down the steps.

Your chart covers a lot of the bases but not the ones that can't get you in trouble namely concerning the install. I hope this fill in some of those gaps. Best regards and good luck.

Not sure who Jeff is but it doesn't seem like he's had a good experience with vinyl. I've been in the flooring industry for over 30 years selling to the people that sell to you so let get you some facts.

OLDER LVP click lock floating floors need space around them because houses breathe, usually no more that 3/16" of an inch. The newer products, especially rigidcore based ones, still require that but are much more forgiving when it comes to uneven subfloors. 

ANY installation of ANY flooring product, carpet included , is only as good as the installer that day. Click lock floating floor systems are easier and usually cheaper to install(even DIY). I DON'T recommend the drop and lock system as a rule because you can't repair them as easily as the 2G or 4G locking systems.

NEVER  buy a floating floor less than 4mm thick(not including the attached cushion). Thinner products tend to show the unevenness of the floor as well as dent easier. NEVER buy a product with less than a 12 mil wearlayer for residential(22mil is commercial) but IN ADDITION it MUST have a FINISH for scratch resistance of aluminum oxide or ceramic bead. The surface should be textured not smooth; again for scratch resistance.

Hope this starts you on your way. Check back with me if you have any questions.

Replacing the carpet is the way to go as long as you are on a main floor. On a second or higher floor, then sound deadening comes into play as well as local ordinances for it. LVP(luxury vinyl plank) is a better value but search for one that has these traits; At least 4 mm thick by itself not including whatever pad might be attached for sound deadening. If scratching is an issue don't go less than a 12 mil wearleayer (22 mil is better ans commercially rated but it could be overkill). The BIG factor is making sure the product has a better scratch resistant FINISH over the wearlayer, preferably aluminum oxide or a ceramic bead and two coats if possible. The product should have a rigidcore base  but still have some slight flex for any irregularities in the subfloor. Stay away from WPC based products. While a good item it has a tendency to indent with heavy load and doesn't do well in high heat situation like picture windows without drapes. If the product you chose does NOT have a attached pad the n find the Omnichoice underlay from Healthier Choice. It has a 73db sound rating, one of the highest for a cushion type underlay.

Hope that all helps.

Just to add to your information. Omnichoice underlay by Healthier Choice works with all lvt and wood products as well as ceramic. It has a sound deadening rating of 73 under LV Click Lock products and comes in 3 foot or 6 foot rolls. You can also get it with or without a vapor barrier. I've had nothing but success with it.

It really depends on the insurance policy you have. I have had insurance companies honor that in hte past and some refuse; some will pay part not all. Since they cannot put yopu back the way you were( called making you whole) most insurance will go ahead in stead of facing the cost of a judge who would probably rule in your favor.

The biggest issue is that it's more than difficult to replace the product. Wears well from what I've read but if you are trying to do a spot repair nothing beats a traditional gluedown lvp with  a aluminum oxide finish. Nothing under 3mm overall thickness. Use a pressure sensitive adhesive. If you're going over concrete make sure to check concrete temperature and  moisture content; both affect the bonding process during the life of the floor. Floating floors cut you cost in the short term as a proper subfloor many times is not as strict as a glue down. The problem is unless you are a true pro in flooring installations you can't just take it apart to repair it. You'll damage more than you are repairing. Good luck.

Any grip strip product is literally impossible to repair easily. You end up replacing major sections. The easiest floor to repair is a lvp glue down with a pressure sensitive adhesive. Any salesperson who tells you that its easy to replace a plank in a floating floor by just taking it apart has NEVER tried to do it in a real life situation. Floating floors are great to keep up front cost down because you normally don't need sub floors but if you are looking for sustainability and extended use you can't beat a good quality 3-4mm thick LVP with an aluminum oxide scratch resistant finish.

Looks like this group has a pretty good handle on when to use Click Lock and when not. To just add a few bits of info;

1) with Click lock try and stay at 4 mm thickness NOT including the pad if your subfloor isn't the smoothest . Anything thinner will telegraph the highs and lows. 

2) if you need or want to glue down and heat or moisture is a issue, DON'T use a pressure sensitive adhesive EVER! Use a hard set that sets up fast (you can't spread the whole floor) and roll constantly during the install  to make sure your plank in in the glue when it sets. Hard sets are basically dead once set(cured) and very hard to remove from a floor but everything stays down if you install properly.

3) Please give yourself at least a 3/16" space around the perimeter of a floating floor install to eliminate call backs from peaking planks due to movement; Houses breathe so they expand and contract.

4)Always buy a floor with ha good FINISH. Wearlayer is NOT finish. Even a 6mil with perform very well in residential settings with a good Aluminum oxide finish.

Good Luck and good installs.

As everyone ahead of me has said, the price is completely out of line except for the person who really doesn't want your business any longer or there's something regarding the site you're failing to mention. One thing I haven't seen is this a first floor or upper install? If it's an upper and you intend on doing a floating floor make sure you check with the local building ordinance regarding soundproofing to make sure your get a proper underlayment to deaden the noise. You won't need that with a glue down as the air pockets that transmit the noise should be minimized as long as you get a 3mm or thicker product; don't buy 2mm products as they show every imperfection in the subfloor unless that's not a concern. Some contractors are using a pressure sensitive glue with floating floors(if the warranty allows it) in stead of a pad to deaden the sound. It also helps with call backs for floor panels that weren't totally locked together.

The most important thing for longevity is making sure the new floor has a good FINISH (not wearlayer) for scratch resistance and maintenance. I prefer Aluminum Oxide but Ceramic Bead works also. Also glue down is less costly to repair than a floating floor. Anyone that tells you you can just take it apart has never done it, especially with the new drop and lock system; you will damage at least 30% or more of the floor's locking system. Trust me 30 years in the industry with client in it even longer and this has been the result. The only way to repair a floating floors is to cut out the bad piece and glue the new piece to the subfloor.