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All Forum Posts by: Jay Hurst

Jay Hurst has started 7 posts and replied 1514 times.

Post: How to get fixed rate loans on investment properties?!

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042
Quote from @Karina Busch:

Thank you for the replies. To clarify, I'm not having trouble getting loans for my LLC, I just see posts and hear on the podcasts about people getting "up to 10" conventional mortgages for properties they buy as investments and don't live in. I am not seeing those options where I am looking. So the main advantage of a DSCR in this case is just the fixed rate?

 @Karina Busch  Any competent mortgage broker or mortgage banker can do this for you. You are speaking to the wrong folks. The banks you are speaking with either do not originate conventional loans or the LO simply does not know how to originate them.  

Post: Purchase under an LLC or not?

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042
Quote from @Charlie Martin:
Quote from @Jay Hurst:
Quote from @Charlie Martin:

Hello, I'm hoping to buy my first property next year, and am wondering if I should create an LLC to do so. The reason is I want to separate my personal debt to income ratio from my real estate investing "business" and of course reduce personal risk. Is complete separation even possible? Thanks!


Your business (the LLC) is still owned by you. The income/loss flows to your personal tax return. An LLC has no effect negatively or positively on how a full doc lender will calculate your income. A real estate business is not different then any other self employment income.

Neither for that matter will a DSCR loan when/if you go to get a full primary home loan for example for the same reasons. The income/loss still flows to your personal return. IF you cannot qualify for a full doc loan then a DSCR loan does NOT look at your returns. But, understand DSCR loans are only for investment properties, not for a primary home you might want to buy in the future.

But, nothing of this really should matter. You are planning on buying cash flowing properties correct?  If so, the income on your tax returns will be positive so the whole rational of trying to avoid the income is moot. 

Thanks for the insight, Jay! I think my biggest worry is that buying an investment property before buying a primary home would affect how lendable I will be when that time comes for the latter. What if the investment property is only breaking even and not necessarily cash flowing? Was curious how separated I could make the two, but doesn’t sound like it’s that simple. 

 @Charlie Martin  You cannot separate the two as the real estate business will be on your tax returns one why or another. So, the only way to buy a primary home without providing tax returns is if you are self employed and use a bank statement type loan. Again, have to be self employed to do this AND rates are higher on these loans.

You will be able to add back your paper losses on your rental business by your lender using this form (if they are competent which not all when it comes to investment real estate) :  https://content.enactmi.com/documents/calculators/Form1038.C...

 The majority of investors I work with after using this form more or less break even on the rental business which makes it a non event and very little impact to your debt to income ratio. Just make sure you file your taxes correctly. I do see mistakes where the property was rented  for 6 months in a tax  year but the tax returns state it was rented for 12 months. That can skew the numbers the wrong way.

Post: To cash-out refinance -or- keep positive cash-flow on a rental

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042
Quote from @Bruce Schussler:

A lot of Podcasts and Youtuber's say to cash-out refinance to keep rents balanced with payment; (PITI) then use those funds strategically to re-invest either in more real estate or just put into a high interest bearing account or money market account...

Here's some of my thoughts and comparisons;

Cash-out refinance with new loan so rents balance with payment:

- The cash-out refinance is 100% tax free

- The funds can be put into a money-market account off-setting a portion of the interest charge of loan

- The loan balance gets eventually destroyed by inflation

- The liquid cash eventually gets destroyed by inflation 

- The interest on the new loan can be deducted from the rent income

- The refinance costs are 3-4% of the total

- There is less equity in the property and LLC that can be attached in case of a lawsuit

- The break-even on cash-out refinance with current interest costs on the new loan is around 12 years
 

Vs.

Paid-off property with positive cash flow:

- The positive rent income is 100% taxable minus only depreciation and property tax

- There is more equity in the property and LLC that can be attached with a lawsuit

- The break even is not until after 12 years at today's interest rates

- There is a rate risk in today's inflationary environment where interest rates on bonds keep rising

*It appears to me that the cash-out refi is in the best interest for a property investor; (Dave Ramsey would strongly disagree!) I've crunched the numbers on a typical 300-400K mortgage and the "break even" on refinance costs and rising rents is about 12-years.  A lot can happen in 12-years and we are currently in an inflationary environment where the rates don't seem to be going down with the Fed lowering short term interest rates.  

Any inputs or additional thoughts would be appreciated!

 @Bruce Schussler   I am always suggest my borrowers stop at 60% loan to value when utilizing this strategy.  60% is the loan to value where the loan would qualify for the best possible rate. It also potentially still allows you cash flow for future capex on the property while not over leveraging yourself. Of course this only works if you have a lot of equity. 

Post: Purchase under an LLC or not?

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042
Quote from @Charlie Martin:

Hello, I'm hoping to buy my first property next year, and am wondering if I should create an LLC to do so. The reason is I want to separate my personal debt to income ratio from my real estate investing "business" and of course reduce personal risk. Is complete separation even possible? Thanks!


Your business (the LLC) is still owned by you. The income/loss flows to your personal tax return. An LLC has no effect negatively or positively on how a full doc lender will calculate your income. A real estate business is not different then any other self employment income.

Neither for that matter will a DSCR loan when/if you go to get a full primary home loan for example for the same reasons. The income/loss still flows to your personal return. IF you cannot qualify for a full doc loan then a DSCR loan does NOT look at your returns. But, understand DSCR loans are only for investment properties, not for a primary home you might want to buy in the future.

But, nothing of this really should matter. You are planning on buying cash flowing properties correct?  If so, the income on your tax returns will be positive so the whole rational of trying to avoid the income is moot. 

Post: Advice For After College (CONDO v.s. HOUSE)

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042
Quote from @Charlie Krzysiak:

Hey you guys would love your advice below!

I am graduating college next December and am moving to Dallas to work full time. My brother currently lives in Dallas and pays an arm and a leg to rent an apartment (He is married so cant house hack). To me it does not seem worth it and would love to hop into real estate right out of school rather than pay crazy rent. Because of this, I have been running the numbers on many properties and doing my research in the Dallas area. I am from Dallas so I am familiar what areas would be considered "ideal". After my internship this summer I will have about 20k in the bank. 

However, upon research I have discovered it is really hard to find cash flowing HOUSES in good areas in my price range. 


What are your thoughts on condos as a first investment? I am finding some that are below 200k that are not that bad in condition. Are condos are good way to get your foot in the door? In my mind a condo will provide me:

-CAPEX is controlled by HOA (I only have to pay, not dedicate time)

-Low down payment

-Cheap financing payment

I plan to live there for 3-5 years and after could expect a NIAF around ($200). Is that really that bad if I will be getting equity and plan to live there for 3-5 years? Assuming rents will increase surely it will cash flow at some point correct? Also I know HOA fees can be outlandish.

Or, would you guys recommend me keeping my money in my pocket, getting a cheap apartment my first year of work, and watching for a 300-400k HOUSE while saving?

Clearly there is a lot of competition in the Dallas market. Do you guys think there is an option to find a property in my price range that will cash flow in a good part of town? I could also look at suburbs to find better deals. 

Thanks for input,

Charlie

@Charlie Krzysiak It was touched on above but condo's are completely different then single family/townhomes and even 2-4 units multi family properties. The reason for this is the condo project it underwritten just as hard if not harder then you are. This is because the financials of the condo project will directly effect the value of the real estate as a collective, as compared to just your financial health on other types. For example, buying in Dallas, we have a ton of hailstorms. What is a storm rips through and trashes the roof, BUT the condo project does not have enough insurance coverage to fix it, the value of the all the units in the project just went down. or, even if they are able to fix it but the coverage premium doubles so the HOA has to double the monthly HOA dues but half the complex can not afford it? You see the picture.

So, because of this a lot of the "affordable" condos you will see in DFW have financial issues and you cannot get a mortgage loan on them, and have to pay cash. or, maybe get some sort of non conventional financing that is much more expensive requiring 25%+ down.  I tell folks all the time if you cannot get someone experienced (Fannie/Freddie for example)  to give you money  to buy the condo you do not want to buy it. 

Post: Due Diligence on a wholesaler

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042
Quote from @Carsten Mortensen:

I have bought all of my deals with an agent through the MLS. You see all the time that the best deals come off market, and wholesalers find the best deals. You also see a plethora of cautionary tales "Do your DD on a wholesaler" What does that mean to you, what are good questions to ask a wholesaler?

 @Carsten Mortensen If you are buying a house of MLS what do you do? You find your own comps and come up with a scope of work with your GC if rehab. You do all of your own due diligence on what to offer based on the data. You do not simply take the seller's word for it right? The seller has a motivation to sell to you at the highest possible number so you do not simply take their word for the price etc.

There should be no difference from a wholesaler (that you do not have a long standing relationship with anyway). They want to sell you the house. So, why would you use their numbers without verifying yourself and doing your own due diligence? As a lender it is a big red flag for me when I ask a potential borrower what the ARV and rehab budget is and have them say "well, the wholesaler says xyz". I do not care what the wholesaler says, but what are the ACTUAL numbers.

Post: Off market deals! It’s easy find yourself some off market deals!

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042
Quote from @Kristi K.:
Quote from @Joe S.:

I got a “just listed an hour ago” text from a new western agent in San Antonio on Tuesday this week, we jumped in the car because it was only 15 minutes from our house and we were looking around the inside of the house when I got a text from the agent saying that it just sold. 


 LIkely dodged a bullet on missing out on a New Western deal...

Post: What goes into cash to close? What are closing costs and what are pre-paid items?

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042

There is a lot of confusion about what comprises closing costs and prepaids and understandably so. I see a lot of posts on Bigger Pockets asking if I should refinance because my closing costs are XYZ. Often, these numbers sound incredibly high relative to the loan amount. But when you dig into the numbers a little deeper, you find that the borrower is lumping closing costs and prepaids all together. In reality, these are two very different things, but they add up to what we call “cash to close”.

Let's define the difference between closing costs and prepaid items:

  • Closing costs are one-time fees that you will ONLY incur if you purchase or refinance a property. These can be further broken down into lender closing costs and third party closing costs.
    • The lender closing costs can include underwriting fee, processing fee, funding fee, origination fee, credit report fee, and tax service fee among others. You may also see a discount fee which means you are buying down your mortgage interest rate in exchange for higher upfront cost. Again, these fees are charged and paid to the lender to complete and fund the mortgage.
    • Third party closing costs include title company fees - including the actual title policy, escrow or closing fee, tax certification, and other title fees; governmental charges – including recording charges, intangible, and transfer taxes (depending on your state). Like the lender fees above, these would just be incurred if you refinance (or purchase.)
  • Prepaid items are the other part of cash to close total, (or what people colloquially call closing costs). These are very different than the fees outlined in the paragraph above. They are called “prepaid” for a reason because you were going to pay them whether you refinance or not. Prepaid items are comprised of property taxes and insurance and prepaid interest.
    • Property taxes and homeowners’ insurance will depend on whether or not you have an escrow account, when you are closing, and when those items are due. If you close towards the end of the year you will have to pony up more taxes because most jurisdictions have the tax bills due at the end of the year. If you choose an escrow account on the new loan, you will need to fund the account to pay the full tax bill and insurance bill when they come due. The cost of insurance will depend on when your renewal date is. If you are refinancing within 60 days of your renewal date, you will likely have to pay the first year's premium at closing. Also, if you have anything in your existing escrow account, you will get that back within a few weeks of closing. This should be more or less the same as the amount that you are putting in.
    • Prepaid interest is the interest (or mortgage payment) for the month you are closing. If your loan funds on the Nov 15th, the pre-paid interest will be from the 15th to the end of the month. Your next payment will not be due until Jan 1 as mortgages are paid in arrears, so the Jan 1 payment is paying the interest accrued in December. This will feel like you are skipping your December mortgage payment, but it will all be contained within your prepaid interest and your mortgage payoff.

           Since insurance and property taxes are something you are going to pay whether you refinance or not. These are NOT closing costs.

It is very important to understand these differences in closing costs and prepaid costs when deciding if a refi makes sense or not. In high property tax, high insurance states like Texas, you may see $20,000 in cash to close while you are saving $250 a month to refi. Well, if it was $20k in closing costs then it would make zero sense to refinance. But once you see that $16,000 of the $20,000 are prepaid homeowners’ insurance and property taxes (that you'll be writing a check for shortly anyway), you determine that the actual one-time closing cost is only $4000. Once you can determine the actual closing costs, you can quantify that the closing costs will be paid back in 16 months and the refinance now makes a lot of sense.

Post: Creative investment proposal: What do you think of this deal?

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042
Quote from @Stephen Hood:
Quote from @Jay Hurst:
Quote from @Stephen Hood:

I have a property that I want to move into and  purchase but am running into a challenge with the offer being contingent on selling our current property. So I had an idea to get a loan from a Private lender for 400K (just under the asking price of the home) this house is already appraising for over the asking price but need some TLC. I would give the lender a 1% origination fee and payback the interest on the loan in 2K/monthly payment. At the end of the 12 months, I would refinance at 500K after fixing up the property and investing the profit from selling my current home in the new property. (I think this is realistic because many property with the same sq footage in the area with upgrades are going close to 600K). I would pay off the remaining 416K by getting a mortgage and hopefully have about 100K in equity.

Anyone have thoughts or holes in this idea? Or know any investors interested in this proposal?


 You just need a bridge loan. Commonly done. It will cost you more then you are proposing but not that much more. 

Thank you Jay. I think that would be the simplest way to go. Have you seen people who are weary of contingent contracts be willing to offer more in concessions at closing to help cover the bridge loan?

 I cannot say I see that on a lot of our bridge loans, but I will also say all they can say is no. Does not hurt to ask. 

Post: Creative investment proposal: What do you think of this deal?

Jay Hurst
#3 Creative Real Estate Financing Contributor
Posted
  • Lender
  • Dallas, TX
  • Posts 1,561
  • Votes 1,042
Quote from @Stephen Hood:

I have a property that I want to move into and  purchase but am running into a challenge with the offer being contingent on selling our current property. So I had an idea to get a loan from a Private lender for 400K (just under the asking price of the home) this house is already appraising for over the asking price but need some TLC. I would give the lender a 1% origination fee and payback the interest on the loan in 2K/monthly payment. At the end of the 12 months, I would refinance at 500K after fixing up the property and investing the profit from selling my current home in the new property. (I think this is realistic because many property with the same sq footage in the area with upgrades are going close to 600K). I would pay off the remaining 416K by getting a mortgage and hopefully have about 100K in equity.

Anyone have thoughts or holes in this idea? Or know any investors interested in this proposal?


 You just need a bridge loan. Commonly done. It will cost you more then you are proposing but not that much more.