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Morris Invest Case Study
I want to apologize ahead of time for the long post but there are a lot of members asking questions about @Clayton Morris , with Morris Invest ( morrisinvest.com ) and not much information out there. I wanted to provide a case study on my time with the company and hopefully provide an unbiased “face based” documentation of my dealings with the organization.
In early July 2016 I heard about Clayton Morris, through his BiggerPockets Interview, which led me to the Morris Invest Podcast. I had bought a duplex a few months before and while it was a positive experience, traditional bank financing took forever so I decided to use cash for my next purchase. I spent a few weeks on vacation, listening to every Morris Invest podcast and over 30 of the BiggerPockets podcasts and decided I was going to buy another rental house.
When I got home from my vacation I looked on the Morris Invest website and couldn't find an available phone interview with Clayton for almost 3 months. I looked again a few days later and low and behold, a spot had opened up the next day. I immediately schedule the phone consult and impatiently waited.
I didn't end up talking to Clayton but I did get to talk to Dave (Client Specialist). He was courteous and intelligent and walked me through the process. I didn't get pressured to do anything and after our conversation I felt comfortable moving forward. Dave explained that he would send me details on a property and the first to claim the property would have the right to purchase.
The next day,I received a picture of a house in Indianapolis, with a sale price of $20k, projected renovations of $20k and projected rental price of $700 per month. I spent 24 hours trying to conduct my due diligence but by the time I was done, the property had already been sold to someone else. Two days later I received an email for a a $30k duplex with $30k projected rehab cost and projected rents of $1,300. I jumped on this deal and immediately go the house under contract.
The purchase only took a few days and by July 17, the house was mine. I was immediately handed over to Nicole, the Operations Manager, to start the rehab. She explained that 50% of the rehab was due up front, 25% after the crew was complete with half of the rehab, and the final 25% once it was complete. At first, email contact with Nicole happened very quickly, but as the renovations started it took longer and longer to receive a reply. I was able to get a scope of work (after a few requests), paid 50% of the rehab cost and everything seems to be going smoothly.
Aug 19 - I received my first set of pictures of the rehab and things look good. They crew built new kitchens, bathrooms, electrical, and replaced the flooring and new interior paint. I still haven't receive my deed or any official documentation that shows that I own the house other than a contract and purchase agreement. I also payed another 25% to continue the rehab.
Sep 24 - Received my second set of pictures showing the new plumbing and more of the interior. Everything looks good so I ask for some exterior photos and more information on the status of my deed and paperwork and am told the house should be ready in the next few days.
Sep 30 - have still not heard back from Nicole with the final pics of the rehab, status of the paperwork, and if we are ready for tenants.
So far, we have had a few hiccups and communication is getting slower and slower. We are over two months in and I do not know if the house is ready for tenants and I only have email contact information so I am in “wait mode”.
I will keep this forum up to date as I continue through the process so people can use it as a case study for Morris Invest. Please let me know if you have any questions.
Originally posted by @Rita Wasley:
Just wanted to contribute our experience with Morris Invest. We had enjoyed their videos and podcasts, so were eager to talk to them about purchasing property. There isn't much information on their website, so they give you no choice but to schedule a call for more information. I had reservations about them after reading the posts by @Ian E. and @Tyler Jahnke and @Gregory Washington and @Brian Freeman
We had our initial 30 minute call with Larry, their representative on 1/3/18. We was friendly and answered our list of questions below.
Q: How long has your company been in the turnkey property business?
A: 2-3 years
Q: In what states/areas are your properties located?
A: Indianapolis, IN - Detroit, MI - Jacksonville, FL
Q: Are the properties you sell below, at or above the market value?
A: They are at or below market value.
Q: Will the renovation be finished when we purchase the property or do we need to wait for the contractors to do the rehab before renting it out?
A: You will buy the property and the rehab is planned but not started. There will be a 6-12 weeks to do the rehab.
Q: Can we get a complete record of the property purchase documents and what the rehab costs were?
A: Yes, you will get an itemized list of the repairs and photos of the before and after the rehab.
Q: If anything goes wrong down the line with the work, can we contact the rehab contractor?
A: There is a guarantee for 1 year for defects and materials.
Q: What is the usual turn-around time needed for the purchase of a property?
A: There are three phases. The first is the purchase agreement - each property is sold to first client who returns signed Purchase Agreement. You will then be put in contact with the title company and schedule the closing. Need to have LLC and bank account ready to put up the money for property. They will pull out cost of property and leave the cost of construction. Then they will pull out the cost of rehab in stages as they finish. They will then put you in touch with an insurance company and property management company.
Q: Can we come and do a walk-through of the property before buying?
A: No, it is too hard do arrange because the properties sell quickly. If you want to see the property before the close or after the rehab, they will do it.
Q: Will the property be rented or do we need to work with a property management company to get a renter?
A: After the rehab the property will be advertised by the property management company. You have to use the property management company they set you up with - at least initially. Since it is on a year-to-year basis, you can switch to another PM later.
Q: Can we get a property inspection from a neutral third party before purchasing?
A: Not good to do, as it's a lot of extra work and time.
We did not like some of the answers we got. It appears that MI is not really "turnkey", since you have to wait weeks for the rehab construction before you can even place a tenant. Plus they discourage you from looking at the property. We decided to not invest with them.
There is another turnkey provider in the same city that has a better approach, and is truly turnkey with finished properties that have a tenant in place. A couple of the members here at BiggerPockets recommended them and we were very impressed with their professional website, business model, and all of the information they provide. We will definitely invest with them instead of MI.
Um.... you might want to take a look at this ASAP
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/523577-oceanpointe-investments-llc
Just as an FYI - Clayton Morris' wife is a licensed real estate agent, but not sure in which state. They may have partnered with OceanPoint for property management and other activities, but were not knowingly doing any unlawful transactions. On the other hand, Clayton Morris has a video where is says he learned the real estate wholesale business from his mentor Tom Krol. Tom Krol has a class action lawsuit against him for teaching fraudulent activities, including illegally brokering without a license. Buyer beware.
Originally posted by @Rita Wasley:
Just as an FYI - Clayton Morris' wife is a licensed real estate agent, but not sure in which state. They may have partnered with OceanPoint for property management and other activities, but were not knowingly doing any unlawful transactions. On the other hand, Clayton Morris has a video where is says he learned the real estate wholesale business from his mentor Tom Krol. Tom Krol has a class action lawsuit against him for teaching fraudulent activities, including illegally brokering without a license. Buyer beware.
Those were good questions and an insightful exchange on many levels. How he could answer some of those questions without being the actual company doing the rehab is wild. There is also no representation for the buyer on these deals so every buyer was partially screwed before the game even started. Apparently Oceanpointe did not have a brokers license inorder to be property managers and then Larry ( Morris Invest rep ?) states you have to go with the illegal property management. Yikes.
Maybe BP should at least try to get these Morris victims some PM help in an organized way.
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@Matt R. I don't think this is a BP issue at all.. BP can't be the gate keeper.. with all the information on this site about how to buy rental houses.. How anyone would buy with out looking or at least having their own inspections their own apprasials first and fall for that line of sale tactics its really on the buyer.. and you have to hand it to Morris he came on the scene with star power ( like TV guru who sell education) so he had a huge leg up.. and then you have many of these folks are first time investors who got caught up in his hype and jumped on.. there are also many like the post above who called BS and came to that conclusion on their own..
@Steven Gesis I have personally seen this inventory its going to be a rocky road for many of these folks in the coming years.. these folks simply did not know what they did not know.. its apparent that the ground partner in this instance failed big time and Morris just steam rolled through with sales .. kind of like throw it up on the wall lets see what sticks.. deal with complaints.. and keep making those commissions..
pretty weird stuff frankly.. but as you know in the industry.. many many who got into selling rental properties to out of state investors.. started in the hood like this.. but most moved right out of it within a year or so when they found it untenable from a management standpoint.. And they simply did not want to deal with it.. :) either and they upped their game.. unless you have like a hedge fund of professional money guys come into your operation and say Hey I want 200 of these with this metrics most simply won't deal with this end of the real estate spectrum.. these types of properties only work 90% or more of the time for locals who want to get in the trench's with this tenant class and like to tinker on their houses.
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Matt R. I don't think this is a BP issue at all.. BP can't be the gate keeper.. with all the information on this site about how to buy rental houses.. How anyone would buy with out looking or at least having their own inspections their own apprasials first and fall for that line of sale tactics its really on the buyer.. and you have to hand it to Morris he came on the scene with star power ( like TV guru who sell education) so he had a huge leg up.. and then you have many of these folks are first time investors who got caught up in his hype and jumped on.. there are also many like the post above who called BS and came to that conclusion on their own..
@Steven Gesis I have personally seen this inventory its going to be a rocky road for many of these folks in the coming years.. these folks simply did not know what they did not know.. its apparent that the ground partner in this instance failed big time and Morris just steam rolled through with sales .. kind of like throw it up on the wall lets see what sticks.. deal with complaints.. and keep making those commissions..
pretty weird stuff frankly.. but as you know in the industry.. many many who got into selling rental properties to out of state investors.. started in the hood like this.. but most moved right out of it within a year or so when they found it untenable from a management standpoint.. And they simply did not want to deal with it.. :) either and they upped their game.. unless you have like a hedge fund of professional money guys come into your operation and say Hey I want 200 of these with this metrics most simply won't deal with this end of the real estate spectrum.. these types of properties only work 90% or more of the time for locals who want to get in the trench's with this tenant class and like to tinker on their houses.
BOOM! Totally right!
Nothing to be shy about, my first ventures were in the hood, but not for long, I found it unsustainable, it has been my work to refine and enhance the investor experience, especially for out of state owners -
#1 Reason we sold our property management business years ago, it is just too daunting to chase homes that are in decent condition and have lower-lower middle-class tenants.
Now, ever since we shed our retail management division, the boutique TK experience is something that is repeatable, owners and tenants alike that we serve are able to receive not only our undivided attention but actual measurable and consistent results - that's what counts - you have to have a process, you have to have a STANDARD and you must be disciplined to achieve maximum results, everytime!
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@Steven Gesis this reminds me a little since this is exactly what the west coast marketing companies do they team up with the sellers of these homes in their markets..
but I remember one post when someone was complaining and the west coast marketer came on and said YUP sorry bout that we had a lot of complaints about that provider and we no longer use them.
I thought well is that not just great.. they got all their fee's ( which are substantial ) and the poor investor is left holding the bag for the remainder of the investment.. and had to go through the west coast marketers learning curve...
There are going to be a lot of tears shed over the years as all these people realize maybe not today because they had the first year tenant pay.. but over the years as they realize these are tough tenants houses need extensive cap ex which was never done and they are just losing money left and right.
I mean the first time I saw this thread was Tyler Jenkhe talking about his property and how he was getting a full turn key for 9500 rehab budget LOL.. then he posted pictures of his house.. and in no way can you do a full rehab for 9500... NO WAY NO how ... so that was the first red flag.. they may have spent that.. but Tyler got on here and with the social media pressure I suspect Morris had to actually do more than they were intending.. but will see.. and of course then you get the false sense of security when you do have a fresh rehab or turn over which is paint and flooring and you get that first tenant in and sure they pay rent for 6 months or a year .. and you post every month when you get a check .. but hey most deals first year are fine.. so it gave again a lot of people a false sense of security because they want to believe so badly.. Hey tyler bought one he got 6 months of payments must be good I am going to jump in now.
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Steven Gesis this reminds me a little since this is exactly what the west coast marketing companies do they team up with the sellers of these homes in their markets..
but I remember one post when someone was complaining and the west coast marketer came on and said YUP sorry bout that we had a lot of complaints about that provider and we no longer use them.
I thought well is that not just great.. they got all their fee's ( which are substantial ) and the poor investor is left holding the bag for the remainder of the investment.. and had to go through the west coast marketers learning curve...
There are going to be a lot of tears shed over the years as all these people realize maybe not today because they had the first year tenant pay.. but over the years as they realize these are tough tenants houses need extensive cap ex which was never done and they are just losing money left and right.
I mean the first time I saw this thread was Tyler Jenkhe talking about his property and how he was getting a full turn key for 9500 rehab budget LOL.. then he posted pictures of his house.. and in no way can you do a full rehab for 9500... NO WAY NO how ... so that was the first red flag.. they may have spent that.. but Tyler got on here and with the social media pressure I suspect Morris had to actually do more than they were intending.. but will see.. and of course then you get the false sense of security when you do have a fresh rehab or turn over which is paint and flooring and you get that first tenant in and sure they pay rent for 6 months or a year .. and you post every month when you get a check .. but hey most deals first year are fine.. so it gave again a lot of people a false sense of security because they want to believe so badly.. Hey tyler bought one he got 6 months of payments must be good I am going to jump in now.
Exactly-
Let's be real $9,500 rehab ("every risk has some hope")? Where on earth? To do things the right way, it costs money, like it or not, it's a simple truth -
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@Steven Gesis Yup .. I know when we had breakfast last year and I was eating my oatmeal.. we got into a discussion on rehab.. and I believe we talked about a true rehab for long term viability is 20 to 40k.
this is why when these guys advertise these homes for 40k as turnkey I just want to jump out of my chair.. the logical conclusion when you back into it. is one.
either they are not doing the true rehab ( which its now evident they were not)
and two they are buying the assets for under 10k wholesale.. simple math that these buyers just cant fathom.. is hey everyone needs to make money.
you have the asset.. ONe of the big wholesaler jumped on another thread offering to go drive by and made the comment ( hey I probably sold them the house) OK so wholesaler makes money
contractor makes money.. don't think oceanpointe was doing this a charity someone had to own these and want the owner profit.. then you have the marketing company and you and I know what they make.
So you add that all up and there is not enough gross revenue to feed all the mouths.. so what gets done is you buy the worse hood rats for next to nothing.. market them like they are top shelf investments.. sell them to a bunch of newer or newbie investors who don't know what they don't know but because you have this huge social media presence they are inclined to trust you. And get fed this line of total BS about some freedom number LOL... selling dreams breaking hearts that's all this is doing.
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Matt R. I don't think this is a BP issue at all.. BP can't be the gate keeper.. with all the information on this site about how to buy rental houses.. How anyone would buy with out looking or at least having their own inspections their own apprasials first and fall for that line of sale tactics its really on the buyer.. and you have to hand it to Morris he came on the scene with star power ( like TV guru who sell education) so he had a huge leg up.. and then you have many of these folks are first time investors who got caught up in his hype and jumped on.. there are also many like the post above who called BS and came to that conclusion on their own..
@Steven Gesis I have personally seen this inventory its going to be a rocky road for many of these folks in the coming years.. these folks simply did not know what they did not know.. its apparent that the ground partner in this instance failed big time and Morris just steam rolled through with sales .. kind of like throw it up on the wall lets see what sticks.. deal with complaints.. and keep making those commissions..
pretty weird stuff frankly.. but as you know in the industry.. many many who got into selling rental properties to out of state investors.. started in the hood like this.. but most moved right out of it within a year or so when they found it untenable from a management standpoint.. And they simply did not want to deal with it.. :) either and they upped their game.. unless you have like a hedge fund of professional money guys come into your operation and say Hey I want 200 of these with this metrics most simply won't deal with this end of the real estate spectrum.. these types of properties only work 90% or more of the time for locals who want to get in the trench's with this tenant class and like to tinker on their houses.
I understand they can't be the gate keeper although they used to have a criteria at one point and ask for guests that had min 10 years experience. I was thinking since we have a gaggle in the same boat in the same city it would be nice to do something good. All the actual results still rests on the investor 100%. It is a bit of a mess, we got guys in mid rehab, in middle of winter, in vandal locations...whoever can help out would be awesome.
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Matt R. I don't think this is a BP issue at all.. BP can't be the gate keeper.. with all the information on this site about how to buy rental houses.. How anyone would buy with out looking or at least having their own inspections their own apprasials first and fall for that line of sale tactics its really on the buyer.. and you have to hand it to Morris he came on the scene with star power ( like TV guru who sell education) so he had a huge leg up.. and then you have many of these folks are first time investors who got caught up in his hype and jumped on.. there are also many like the post above who called BS and came to that conclusion on their own..
@Steven Gesis I have personally seen this inventory its going to be a rocky road for many of these folks in the coming years.. these folks simply did not know what they did not know.. its apparent that the ground partner in this instance failed big time and Morris just steam rolled through with sales .. kind of like throw it up on the wall lets see what sticks.. deal with complaints.. and keep making those commissions..
pretty weird stuff frankly.. but as you know in the industry.. many many who got into selling rental properties to out of state investors.. started in the hood like this.. but most moved right out of it within a year or so when they found it untenable from a management standpoint.. And they simply did not want to deal with it.. :) either and they upped their game.. unless you have like a hedge fund of professional money guys come into your operation and say Hey I want 200 of these with this metrics most simply won't deal with this end of the real estate spectrum.. these types of properties only work 90% or more of the time for locals who want to get in the trench's with this tenant class and like to tinker on their houses.
I understand they can't be the gate keeper although they used to have a criteria at one point and ask for guests that had min 10 years experience. I was thinking since we have a gaggle in the same boat in the same city it would be nice to do something good. All the actual results still rests on the investor 100%. It is a bit of a mess, we got guys in mid rehab, in middle of winter, in vandal locations...whoever can help out would be awesome.
Very tough, you have to hunker down and dig in - it is not an easy process and it is not a forgiving climate
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@Steven Gesis if the heat is too high on the seller of these properties and there are too many claims and they are now out of business in Indy.. next step is simply file chapter 7 and move on..
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Steven Gesis ...
I mean the first time I saw this thread was Tyler Jenkhe talking about his property and how he was getting a full turn key for 9500 rehab budget LOL.. then he posted pictures of his house.. and in no way can you do a full rehab for 9500... NO WAY NO how ...
It's hard to hire out a lipstick rehab for $9500 - just doing paint and flooring using people that get paid will cost more than that in most places for any rental that isn't tiny.
Originally posted by :@Jay Hinrichs
I mean the first time I saw this thread was Tyler Jenkhe talking about his property and how he was getting a full turn key for 9500 rehab budget LOL.. then he posted pictures of his house.. and in no way can you do a full rehab for 9500... NO WAY NO how ... so that was the first red flag..
That's barely lipstick on a pig!
Originally posted by @Jacob Carlson:
Now that it has been a few months with renters in your property how are things going? I am interested to hear. My wife and I also got a property from Morris Invest. Would you get another investment property with them?
How long ago did you work with them? Is it going smoothly so far?
@Denny McKown I started working w/ Morris Invest mid January 2018. I waited for a deal that looked good to me to come along and I accepted it. I have the title and my LLC name is on the property on the county website. The rehab was pretty big on this property as it was the worst one on the block. We are hoping it appraises for $55+ and can do another one. Rehab should be done in Late April/May and things are going smoothly so far for us.
i just got a post rehab inspection on my property last week. Here is the video. https://youtu.be/_jn6G6cZsdE
@Gregory Washington
Any updates for us on your investments with Clayton Morris / Oceanpointe ? Have any of you had independent 3rd party inspections of your properties? Verified rehabs were done and the work is suitable? Verified units are rented and leases reflect accurate rents? Has anyone had to challenge them for shoddy rehab work and tested the 1 year guarantee for defects and materials? Did they stand by their work? @Brian Freeman Any ongoing lawsuits/ outstanding management issues? @Ian E. were you able to do a cash out refi as planned? Curious to hear more about long term results from investing with Morris Invest, any additional info from actual investors with Morris Invest greatly appreciated thanks.
I am also interested to see if there are any updates.
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Originally posted by @Colin Zhu:
I am also interested to see if there are any updates.
colin were you suppose to have some milestone done by today as well.. have you sent anyone out as a neutral 3rd party to do an inspection ?
@Jay Hinrichs we're quickly approaching the 2-month mark since our close back in Feb 14th and I haven't gotten any significant updates from them yet other than they kicked out some squatters and have finished with the demo phase and are putting in electrical/plumbing.
I was able to get in touch with them last week and they're supposed to give me a status update this week. I will call them on Wednesday if I don't hear back from them.
I've also found someone on CL to take photos for me every 2 weeks to track their progress. So far, the exterior looks untouched. I'm getting more photos tomorrow so we'll see if there's any more progress.
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Originally posted by @Colin Zhu:
@Jay Hinrichs we're quickly approaching the 2-month mark since our close back in Feb 14th and I haven't gotten any significant updates from them yet other than they kicked out some squatters and have finished with the demo phase and are putting in electrical/plumbing.
I was able to get in touch with them last week and they're supposed to give me a status update this week. I will call them on Wednesday if I don't hear back from them.
I've also found someone on CL to take photos for me every 2 weeks to track their progress. So far, the exterior looks untouched. I'm getting more photos tomorrow so we'll see if there's any more progress.
Depending on how much you really want to protect your investment.. simply getting pictures on a drive by is not going to cut it.
I would suggest you find a construction inspection company like the HML ers use we use and banks use.. normally about 50 to 100 an inspection..
so what you want is at demo phase they go through and check it out quickly and make sure you did not buy a complete wreck with a lot of structural defects that can easily be hidden.
then from there once they do electrical and plumbing before they cover those us get it inspected..
then have them come back after sheet rock and kitchen bathrooms etc.
then once its done hire a normal home inspector to go through the whole house to make sure its up to code and everything is working.. the first inspectors just say yes there is plumbing and electrical the last inspector make sure its all to code your GFI's are in your hot water works etc etc.
the other thing you want to do for SURE is get a sewer scope all those old houses unless its evident there is a new waste line the second someone moves in your probably going to find your sewer wont work right and it will be an emergency replacement and cost you 2X to 3X what it would cost if you fix it now..
Remember sewer wont back up with just a home inspector flushing the toilet a few times.. it backs up once the home is occupied and EVERYONE is using the toilet and washing cloths etc.
this is what I would do to protect my investment probably cost you a grand or so.. or just forget it and take what they give you but realize you will probably have some severe cap ex in the future. because these things wont be done prophylactically.. by the past performance and pictures etc from those who bought from Morris.
These are just prudent things any rehabber would do and any owner.. I mean if you were buying a home in Belmont you would do this right ??
@Jay Hinrichs I would love to do that. Do you have advice on how one would actually do it while being out of state? Should I just find an inspector and have them coordinate with the PM company for the inspection? Are there companies that will handle all the logistics for me for a fee?
-Colin
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Originally posted by @Colin Zhu:
@Jay Hinrichs I would love to do that. Do you have advice on how one would actually do it while being out of state? Should I just find an inspector and have them coordinate with the PM company for the inspection? Are there companies that will handle all the logistics for me for a fee?
-Colin
yes just google construction management inspections.. and then just have the PM put a construction lock box with a code on the property.. no need schedule other than to tell inspector something is ready for inspection they don't have to be there.
but the first one you should have done now.. to get the base line of what you own.. remember these houses are the worse of the worse that Morris is selling before what they attempt to do is rehab.. and as stated in many posts these rehabs are just lip stick get them basic and then get a low end tenant in ..
that's what we have seen.
remote rehab like this can only be done with a TOP notch company and I only know two in the country I would do this with and of course this is not one of them.. this is how it goes pear shaped.. poor thought process on the front end IE selling hoody homes and describing them like they are in great areas with great tenant base then absolute worse of the worse on the rehab to the point of no rehab at all being done..
so you need our own inspectors to keep them honest which they don't appear to be able to do on their own. this is very common.. I have to do this myself with my bank loans and a few HML loans I have gotten and when I was a larger HML I did this as well.. its standard practice in the industry.
where it fell of the rails was Morris saying NO you can't inspect we are too busy or whatever line of BS he gave clients.. so protect your self..
1. Sewer scope
2. construction management periodic inspection
3. Home inspector when done to make sure its done right and to code.. ( which looking at videos none of it looks to be or very little ) at least in observations.. and the one' s I drove by that were vacant trashed and front doors kicked in those are obvious.. :)