Who is more unethical Realtors or used car salesmen?

[Adam Bartomeo]

I know this will ruffle a few feathers but it is a fair question.

I have met and had hundreds of interactions with realtors and I am never surprised at the new lows that some of them can reach. I was also a manager at CarMax (the largest seller of used vehicles in the world) so I understand used car sales people.

Before you get too upset, I agree that there are good realtors and good used sales people out there (I think that they are few and far between). But, based on my experience both are highly questionable in their interactions and practices.

Most recently I found out that a realtor that represented me told the other agent pertinent information about my situation when I expressly told them that they were not to share it with anyone. This caused me a loss of about $10,000.

I am a highly religious man that tries to operate honestly and fairly in all interaction (I am human and do make mistakes). But, I have been lied to, deceived and wronged by almost every realtor and car salesman that I have encountered.

Please share your story with me and see if you can change my jaded view of these so called "professions" or share a story that reinforces my point of view.

[Ash Patel]

I too have gotten screwed by Realtors, car sales people, lawyers, landscapers, mtg companies, hell even my sixth grade principal wrongfully suspended me.  But each time, I learned and was more prepared for subsequent occasions.  By now, I have great realtors, ins co, banks etc.  If you have gotten screwed in "hundreds of interactions", you may want to take @Brandon Stevens advice and find a realtor at your church. 

[Adam Bartomeo]

@Ryan Dosseyout of all of the places I ever lived this is the greatest place 

[Mary B.]

@Adam Bartomeo

Fact: You being a Christian have to forgive and move on (obviously you haven't and won't forget). 

As I think someone mentioned, become a licensee yourself. You'd be part of the solution not the problem - yes I'm an optimist. If you are going to be a highly successful real estate investor you will have to deal with them at some point. Don't take it so personal. If they do something unethical / fail to uphold their fiduciary responsibility,  report them by filing a complaint. If that means multiple complaints on multiple salespeople so be it. I highly doubt that someone else's example of a good agent will relieve your angst as it seems to be deeply embedded. Sure we all get riled up and need to vent but it gets to a point where you have to ask what good is holding onto bitterness for realtors doing you or your business?! 

You can put yourself in a position to only do REI business when there are no realtors involved(which isn't difficult as there are many agents / r.e. salespeople that aren't members of the 'realtor' organization) or omit licensees from the equation altogether and find all of your own deals. It can be done but the restriction will cost your business by missing out on deals that do involved agents. That's up to you but at this point there is no gray area - you're either in or out.

Everyone doesn't care for lawyers yet they have a part in business dealings and personal ones too. You're not marrying or even sleeping with them just get the job done and move on. Many people don't like wholesalers and it doesn't deter me or most others from performing the niche on that worthless basis whatsoever.  Its way too much trouble to count out every potential unethical job under the sun because we are all sinners and scumbags come from all walks of life, shapes, sizes, careers, colors and religions. I hope that you don't take my post as an attack as its far from it. I most certainly get your frustration as you have had your fill of the b.s. and you are about to blow.  My coin is to finish venting via this thread and make it be the finale. With or without religious involvement, its not a good thing for your business or your spirit.

Kudos,

Mary

[Mark Ferguson]

I am curious how you know you lost $10,000 and how you found out after the fact? Please share the details of the transaction.  

[Scott Huggins]

Adam,

I don't believe this was asked already but did you sign an exclusive buyers agency agreement or what other type of agency representation did you have with the agent?  Not saying this was the case but you see sometimes what people mistakenly think is "their" agent is actually the agent of the seller.  In that case of course it is perfectly legal for the seller agent to disclose anything pertinent that you disclose to their seller.  It all boils down to the agreement that you did or did not have with the agent.

In addition, as was already stated 20% of agents do 80% of the work.  So that 20% is highly experienced, trained and educated and get highly compensated because they produce results.  Pick one of us next time.  You do get what you pay for most of the time.

Scott H

[Michael Lee]

Originally posted by @Adam Bartomeo:

I know this will ruffle a few feathers but it is a fair question.

I have met and had hundreds of interactions with realtors and I am never surprised at the new lows that some of them can reach. I was also a manager at CarMax (the largest seller of used vehicles in the world) so I understand used car sales people.

Before you get too upset, I agree that there are good realtors and good used sales people out there (I think that they are few and far between). But, based on my experience both are highly questionable in their interactions and practices.

Most recently I found out that a realtor that represented me told the other agent pertinent information about my situation when I expressly told them that they were not to share it with anyone. This caused me a loss of about $10,000.

I am a highly religious man that tries to operate honestly and fairly in all interaction (I am human and do make mistakes). But, I have been lied to, deceived and wronged by almost every realtor and car salesman that I have encountered.

Please share your story with me and see if you can change my jaded view of these so called "professions" or share a story that reinforces my point of view.

You are probably right.  Just be careful at everything you do.  Just educate yourself as much as possible and keep up your work.  Proper planning your everyday function will help you,

Good luck with whatever you choose!  Just don't listen to the outside and do what you think is best!

[Michael S.]

@Adam Bartomeo I also have yet to experience a good, honest realtor. Even some that seem great for a while end up sneaking in a lie or two eventually. This has lead me to get a license myself. I am going through the process now. Hopefully, I can be that honest real estate agent that people are looking for.

I actually have had a good transaction with a used car salesman so at lease those guys do exist.

P.S. It is funny, while going through the real estate agent course, one of the requirements to becoming a real estate agent is that one must, "Have a good reputation for honesty, trust, fair dealing and competency."

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Michael S.  you guys must be on some other planet  were your finding all these lying realtors.. Granted some are not that swift,  some dont return calls or answer their phone ( major pet peeve of mine and I won't do business with one of those types )  Good thing for you young and upcoming agents to remember Answer your friggen phone the whole world does not like text messaging.

I suspect some of you folks who characterize lying probably do not have enough experience to really understand what your saying or insinuating.. Lying is very serious charge for an agent.. it could lead to fruad in the inducement of contract and all other manner of bad things for them.. 

Their is a reason we have E & O  now the people who fib are generally buyers and sellers there is no denying that... that again is why we have insurance for when a seller intentionally does not disclose or some buyer is fibbing about thier ability to close etc. 

[Michael S.]

@Jay Hinrichs a better term for my "type" might be "inexperienced" as the term "young" is actually age discrimination and is illegal. This discrimination is certainly illegal when you "won't do business with one of those types" (your words not mine). Young/old people are just as much a protected class as anyone of race, sexual preference etc. Real estate agents/brokers etc are not protected so until I meet a decent one I can make generalizations about my experiences with people who hold that title.

Thank you for proving my point that every realtor i have dealt with (so far) is unethical, has done something illegal or lied in some way. 

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Michael S.:

@Jay Hinrichs a better term for my "type" might be "inexperienced" as the term "young" is actually age discrimination and is illegal. This discrimination is certainly illegal when you "won't do business with one of those types" (your words not mine). Young/old people are just as much a protected class as anyone of race, sexual preference etc. Real estate agents/brokers etc are not protected so until I meet a decent one I can make generalizations about my experiences with people who hold that title.

Thank you for proving my point that every realtor i have dealt with (so far) is unethical, has done something illegal or lied in some way. 

 When did people who don't  answer their phone become a protected class? I must have missed that one in my continuing education.

[Rod Desinord]

You have to do your homework, find out who the best realtors are out there. There are so many ways to do this. Like in every walk of life there are those who are pulled towards the "DARK SIDE" in their practices. So you cannot just think "ooooo cause of this bad realtor" the majority is bad. Thats a narrow view of that group of people. 

[Mike Cumbie]

For the record and Full disclosure: I am not a realtor or know any on a friend/family basis. I agree with @Mark Ferguson. What are the details that a realtor cost you $10,000. If they mentioned something about the property for sale that you were trying to hide, then "unethical" wouldn't be the term I would use for that person in the conversation. If a customer was walking and they said "He might take less" I wouldn't call it "unethical" either because it got them back to the table. In the end I find it difficult to see how a realtor cost you the $10,000 when you have to sign off on the deal. At this point the entire thread is you slamming an entire group of people because of a slight against you. Without allowing the reader to know the story of what happened in your case you are not open to a fair and honest conversation.

[Wayne Brooks]

Well, you don't really know if you lost $10k or not.  Your buyer may not have paid $10k more, and you'd have no sale at all.  It sounds kind of like a bottom line counter offer, we don't know.  But yes it's possible, many agents wouldn't want to risk the sale (and their commission) getting you an extra $10k, this is true.  I recently was negotiating for a buyer, and they were happy at $740k, happier when we got it to $720k.  It was a cash sale, but I insisted they put in an appraisal contingency, as this was a newer house (14' ceilings, 10 year old house) as compared to the rest of the development being mostly 30 year old house, 8' ceilings, etc. and knew there were no comparable comp.s to use.  Theyhad some specific requirements, and this house was perfect. The appraisal came in lower, but the buyers told me it didn't matter and if I lost this deal for them "I would have to leave the state" (they were a also friends).  A few days later I had a new price of $700k. You think I worried about the $600 less in commission?  While there are certainly some shady agents, I believe incompetency is much more prevelant than fraud.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Michael S.  I am talking about all realtors these days.. and wholesalers for that matter that send out yellow letters... if they just answered their phone live I think there productivity would go up.. and its a personal pet peeve of mine for sure and if a realtor does not call me back then its next for me.

I started selling RE when I was 18  got my brokers at 20 so I under stand the age thing better than most.. 

my comments are based on those who post about lying agents I really don't think most of you really understand enough about real estate to be calling the kettle black  LOL.. just a bunch of beginners who like to whine is how I read your posts... Very few realtors lie out right is my experience and I have Frankly far more than most of you posting thats just a fact  .. do some lie  for sure they do ... there are some people in this world that can't tell the truth no matter what and no matter what industry they are in they are called pathological  I have ran into my share over the years in all walks of business ...

your post is just humorous to me  once you get your license and start in this great industry it would be good to see how you feel about this all in say 5 to 10 years of working it.

One thing is for certain though and this is well known.. buyers are liers and so are sellers thats a fact  LOL

[Adam Bartomeo]

@Mike CumbieThank you for the post. I try to rehab my properties to a safe (I could never live with myself if someone got hurt) and cosmeticly pleasing manner. If there is something detrimental to the property I make it known or fix it or follow the guidance of the realtor (I don't know everything and this is why I pay them).

You may want to read up on realtors, agents and anyone licensed to sell real estate. Your definition of not unethical is WRONG. They have a fiduciary responsibility to protect their clients info. So, getting people to the "table" is the mentality that gets agents in trouble. It is illegal to do what you are saying.

Also, this thread isn't about me. Please read the original post where is says provide a story. And, there are several posts on here not slamming realtors that I voted for and replied back to in a very positive manner. 

Please do your research before commenting.

[Mike Arias]

Adam

I hope you didn't think this topic would have any other way.. There are lots of respected and experienced realtors/brokers here on BP that you insulted by just having that headline. You can't post something like this and not get attacked from every angle. If you want constructive topics and advice steer clear of demeaning our colleagues. 

[Mike Cumbie]

@Adam Bartomeo Best of luck to you and your company in your future dealings.

[Mark Ferguson]

 More than a few people have asked for details  on how you lost 10k. Why won't you post them? You post a thread bashing realtors with your main argument being they cost you 10k, but you won't provide detials? That kind of destroys your argumemt. Sounds more than a little fishy to me.

This is an open forum. You post something and others chime in with questions and comments. You post something like this and expect people not to ask any questions, to just follow your instructions and post stories?

[Doug N.]

@Adam Bartomeo Am I surprised that no one has mentioned the law(s) of attraction? Not really. I used to think those types of books were simply wishful thinking writ large, but more and more I am seeing these themes play out in very clear ways. There is a lot to work with here, starting with a confirmation bias and ending(?) in the murky waters of "This is what I think happened... agree with me, please." 

I write this way - frankly, with no hand-holding - to inform you of another viewpoint, a perspective formed by some valuable (albeit unpleasant) experiences. Often, there was no one to consult in these issues, and my constant and unfailing tutor was the Hard Knocks University. I have a few master's degrees.

You have a hive-mind here of folks more wise than the two of us, and it may be good to really (really) read some of the advice offered by these folks. 

This is the best advice I can give you. I wish you the best in your endeavors, and take it easy!

[Belinda R.]

Wow!

[Belinda R.]

In this business you're going to meet a lot of people who will not share your religious beliefs, ethics and values whether they're contractors, realtors, investors etc...get use to it.  I've met my fair share, this business is definitely not for the faint at heart. I have never had a problem telling them, "I wont be doing that", " let's do the right thing here" "if it cost extra money, so be it" etc. As a Christian, it is MY responsibility to do the right thing. I can't depend on others to do what I know is right. In your situation, if you feel the realtor cost you $10k and failed to uphold their fiduciary responsibility to you as a client, you could have just walked away from the deal due to a breach a contract. You could file a complaint with the board and possibly sue for damages or just move on. God knows your heart and if you stay true to your beliefs, you'll get back what you've lost and much more. God Bless!

[Richard McRae]

It is too bad that you have had such negative experiences with salespeople of all persuasions!  I have appraised commercial real estate for 18 years and have more recently been involved with investment sales of multifamily assets.  There are certainly bad apples out there, but in my experience, and I've worked with hundreds of brokers through the years, the ratio is similar to that of humanity in general.  I've met liars and benders of the truth in all walks of life.  

I would make one suggestion to those of you that think listing agents are shopping your offers.  Remember that they don't work for you.  They have a fiduciary responsibility to their client.  If you want someone to represent you, then hire a buyer rep!  Furthermore, don't just hire a salesperson, hire an expert in the field in which you plan to buy.

[Russell Brazil]

Originally posted by @Michael S.:

@Jay Hinrichs a better term for my "type" might be "inexperienced" as the term "young" is actually age discrimination and is illegal. This discrimination is certainly illegal when you "won't do business with one of those types" (your words not mine). Young/old people are just as much a protected class as anyone of race, sexual preference etc. Real estate agents/brokers etc are not protected so until I meet a decent one I can make generalizations about my experiences with people who hold that title.

Thank you for proving my point that every realtor i have dealt with (so far) is unethical, has done something illegal or lied in some way. 

 I think you might want to brush up on your knowledge of Fair Housing laws.  Age is not a Federally protected class, nor do  I think it is at the state level in Maine where you are from.  I dont really feel like trying to find out if it is in any of the places where Jay is licensed. It is not a protected class in my state, though in some of the counties in Maryland it is.

I also like the hubris of a guy as inexperienced as you both in real estate and on the site calling out someone like Jay Hinrichs, one of the the more respected voices on this site, for fair housing violations when none occurred. 

[Steve Vaughan]

@Richard McRae- I'm the one that has had many of my offers shopped by LAs.  The question at hand is ethical or unethical realtor behavior. It was unethical for them to do that, IMO.  It also wasn't just something I 'thought' happened. Thank for insinuating that I'm clueless or imagining things.

The proper thing to have done would have been to present my properly written offer (on NWMLS Forms) to the seller, not just call someone else to compete with me. Unethical behavior.  Congrats to them 'earning' their one-property clients an extra $100 to $1000 in the name of fiduciary responsibility to their client. 

I don't see how having a buyer's agent would have helped, unless he/she was part of the same good ol' boy network that screwed me in the first place.  No thanks.  

[Clinton Montgomery]

I primarily coordinate Hard Money loans but I am also a licensed Real Estate Broker-Salesman in Nevada.  Unfortunately, I have to agree with a lot of what the original post claims.  I have witnessed and continue to witness unethical practices by agents on almost every deal I am involved in.  Whether it's not presenting an offer, an inaccurate SRPD, divulging confidential information, or just simply not following up on an agent call, it all boils down to lack of professionalism and the ease of entry into the field of Real Estate as @Matt Motil pointed out.   "99.9%" is in reality more like  75% in my opinion.  To be honest, it seems the problem is getting worse and that number is steadily rising.  The overall economy is struggling and your average person out there, regardless of occupation, will take the low road for financial gain if they think they can get away with it.  I wish it weren't so, but it is.  So if a Real Estate Agent can't give you at least handful of verifiable references on the quality and professionalism of their service, then move on to another who can.