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Updated about 3 years ago, 09/30/2021
COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
I barely come here for real estate advice at this point, let alone guidance on how to properly handle the first global pandemic of our lifetimes.
It would be wise to think of the word grace. People need it right now.
It's important to give grace to those around us. I am not a religious person. Grace is about understanding everyone is in some form of crisis right now. So their perspective is different and there's a good chance it's coming from a place of fear. Of losing money, security and safety.
Things have to be pretty grim financially for someone to be saying, you know what. My health, my friends, family, the community, is not as important as this problem I am facing. So while I don't agree, I want to be sympathetic and understanding that this is a horrible experience and I can understand why they are looking for options to end this pain.
Originally posted by @Steven Lowe:
Originally posted by @Sergio Aguinaga:
@Bryan Beal I can’t believe this is even a discussion. If you want to carry the risk and go to work, the virus will be lingering for much more time and much more people will be infected. Your risk affects those around you. If you go grocery shopping guess what? Now everyone that took massive precaution just stepped into the same place and touched the same things you did. Your irresponsibility affects others.
You also take a risk every time you get in a car, fly on an airplane, or even go for a walk outside. Life has an inherent risk level, there is no way to eliminate it from the equation. We don't live in a laboratory. And if people keep staying home indefinitely eventually the economy is going to collapse because the Government can't just keep printing money to make up for the lack of actual work being done. People need to go back to work even if it means an increased risk to some.
When you drive a car or fly on a plane, you make the decision of putting yourself at that risk. We can't say the same about the virus because others' decisions affect you. If the virus wasn't contagious and only those that don't care would contract it somehow, then by all means. The risk of driving or flying on a plane also doesn't exponentially increase among elders like it does with covid-19. What if I told you that you can drive your car, but I'm going to get rid of ABS and a lot of the safety functionality from it. Would you still drive it? That additional risk is added among other people and re-opening the economy now is like driving without the ABS/TCS/VDC features we have. Being healthy and advocating to take the risk of contracting it just because you're better off than a lot of the vulnerable people is selfish! Being healthy is a privilege and it's not fair to them their life depends on your selfishness. A lot of places have already peaked and we're on the downfall. Things are starting to look better already but if we do what Florida did, then it's a bold bad move.
Originally posted by @Sergio Aguinaga:
Other drivers certainly affect you when you are out there on the road. Elderly drivers are some of the most risky drivers out there, which is why they have to retest more often than younger drivers.
I think even if the entire country was re-opened full throttle today many people would be wary to go out without a mask and gloves and probably it's going to take a long while before things are back to normal so IMO the Florida decision won't have quite the negative result people think it will.
Originally posted by @Steven Lowe:
Originally posted by @Sergio Aguinaga:
Other drivers certainly affect you when you are out there on the road. Elderly drivers are some of the most risky drivers out there, which is why they have to retest more often than younger drivers.
I think even if the entire country was re-opened full throttle today many people would be wary to go out without a mask and gloves and probably it's going to take a long while before things are back to normal so IMO the Florida decision won't have quite the negative result people think it will.
They do, but typically the risk for driving is linear not exponential. The added risk for elders with health problems is exponential compared to the young and healthy. So a fair comparison is driving without ABS/TCS/VDC since it adds that exponential driving factor into it. I want things to get better and I am so tired of social distancing myself haha but I guess we'll see what happens with Florida and once we gather more data to determine if it's worth the trade off but for now, my answer is it's not worth it. In a month? Potentially.
You are such a hypocrite;
FIRST in your original post you say :
"If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that."
THEN you say :
"You can't pick and choose who has certain rights and who doesn't."
So it's OK for you to have the right to risk infecting other because it's YOUR right, then you assert that NO ONE has can pick and choose what is right for someone else.
Normally a contrarian person is interesting, but i find you to be disingenuous at best.
Originally posted by @Tim G.:
I barely come here for real estate advice at this point, let alone guidance on how to properly handle the first global pandemic of our lifetimes.
It would be wise to think of the word grace. People need it right now.
It's important to give grace to those around us. I am not a religious person. Grace is about understanding everyone is in some form of crisis right now. So their perspective is different and there's a good chance it's coming from a place of fear. Of losing money, security and safety.
Things have to be pretty grim financially for someone to be saying, you know what. My health, my friends, family, the community, is not as important as this problem I am facing. So while I don't agree, I want to be sympathetic and understanding that this is a horrible experience and I can understand why they are looking for options to end this pain.
I agree that people need to show each other grace, or courteous goodwill. So far despite the hardships many are enduring I think we've been remarkably resilient.
There is a tipping point for all of this though. The government can't keep people home indefinitely by printing more money. There is a limit to all of this. At some point if the cure becomes worse than the disease and we are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils--one being the majority of the population goes back to work but puts others at higher risk and the other being stay home but our entire way of life unravels and we end up with massive defaults, food riots and 200,000% inflation, I'll go back to work, TYVM.
Haha @Brian Van Pelt you should learn how to interpret context. Where to even begin...
How are those two statements not related? I have the right to do those things, yes. So do you. So does everyone else. Then again, it's your right to NOT do those things if you so choose, and that's fine. Either way, we all have the right to do what we think is best. EVERYONE has the right to pick and choose what they deem is right or wrong and that all falls within that same argument. So no, you can't pick and choose who has certain rights and who don't. We all have them. Just because I exercise mine differently doesn't make it any less of a right.
Normally, I'd ignore a dumb post like this but this time, I couldn't help myself.
There are few sayings that come to mind:
Freedom is not free!
All gave some, some gave all!
A few months of reduced liberties is a very small sacrifice to save even a few of the lives of my family, friends, neighbors, fellow citizens, and fellow humans.I understand the theoretical aspects of your philosophical quandary, and I agree the question should be considered...BUT, the fact that a few months of partially suspended liberties is too great a sacrifice, for the chance at stopping or at least drastically reducing a global pandemic, seems selfish and narcissistic. So, the people you are going tit for tat with don't like it, won't forgive it, and seem to be down right hostile about it. I am not sure that I can blame them.
I would be lying, if I didn't say that some part of me felt the same as you, so, I appreciate the thread and your willingness to argue your point, it's just that I love my like minded family, friends, neighbors, and fellow citizens much more than your(or my) need to feel the illusion of freedom.
Best of luck and much health and wealth in your future!
@Bryan Beal I think it's quite commendable for voicing your opinion. It is unfortunate to see some of the replies you are receiving but I can't say I am surprised especially it being such a touchy subject.
I think it is important for people to maintain perspective on the matter. In NYC it is very easy to make the case that a lockdown is necessary with everything that is happening here. I happen to work in the grocery business where my family owns two supermarkets here so I know first hand what is happening here. Personally I am not for lockdowns in general but being how dense this city is I can see why we went that route. If you take a state like Alabama, North Carolina, or Missouri where they have headlines like "North Carolina recorded its deadliest day from the pandemic, after officials announced 34 new deaths" and you compare that to NY's 500-800 daily deaths, I can see why people in those states would be frustrated considering the lockdowns are nearly identical, yet what is actually happening is vastly different. I think the measures the state governments are taking should be catered specifically to that state. It should not be a "copy and paste" from other states
Here are two excellent examples of government overreach in this "crisis":
1. From a high school friend of mine who lives in San Jose, CA:
"So does Shelter-In-Place mean I can’t be out side gardening in my backyard or working on my house and doing stucco and fixing possible leaks in walls??? Apparently so. I noticed the San Jose Police Helicopter circling above Glider Elementary School (now closed, since June 2018) when 2 officers enter my open gate on my side yard to tell me that only emergency construction was currently allowed. I pointed out to them that the only reason of a possible spread of the virus was because they came into my back yard without a mask.. I told them to leave... Eventually they did... After I got a warning... I said they didn’t have permission to come onto my property... They said they announced who they were.l and asked me to get off of the ladder... I said, “why am I going to run away?” Or are you going to shoot me... Obviously, I’m a danger to them if I have a trowel of stucco in my hand... When did it become the interest of the police to stop someone applying stucco on the back of his house... but it’s okay for everyone and his dog to take a walk?????"
2. [Headline] Springfield, Greene County leaders loosen some restrictions on stay-at-home order
That "loosening" boils down to this: "Springfield Mayor Ken McClure said many businesses previously deemed “non-essential” will be allowed to take orders via telephone or the Internet. Those businesses will also be allowed to fulfill the orders through shipping, delivery, or curbside pickup, effective immediately."
Those restrictions should never have been put in place, and are exactly what the people who are protesting are reacting to. For a little perspective, Greene County has a population of about 300,000, 85 virus cases, (39 active) and 7 deaths.
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Steven Lowe:
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
In a just world, they would die in the streets, alone, without chance of infecting anyone else (although that's not realistic since the virus still survives in the dead body for at least some time). In reality, people are going to treat them and take the chance of becoming infected.
As Don Corleone once said, "that is not justice, your daughter is still alive".
What I was responding to was the idea that medical care should somehow only be reserved for those who don't do stupid things and medical professionals should be allowed to dispense life or death according to some ambiguous and completely unenforceable standard.
I'll wager that every single person on this board has done multiple stupid things in their lives, including you. I know I have. Should we be denied medical care and made to--what was it, die in the streets alone?--because some moral authority decided that we weren't worthy of saving because we didn't follow whatever made up standards they put in place? I'll assume for sake of argument that you would be OK with this but I certainly would not, no matter how much I might disagree with the so-called stupid behavior.
Medical professionals treat people who do stupid things all the time. My dad was Chief of trauma surgery for a major hospital in Chicago. The majority of his patients were not card carrying MENSA members and/or Nuns. They were typically victims of domestic and gang violence. Gunshot wounds. Stabbings. Beatings. Drug overdoses. Suicide attempts. Child abuse. One guy even got high on PCP, cut off his own d*ck and wanted it sewn back on.
But I suppose we should start turning people who flaunt the shelter in place orders away because they aren't worthy of being treated if they get sick? If people want to go out and gather, protest, shake hands, kiss babies, despite the global pandemic we are currently going through,though we may think they are being stupid, that is their right.
People like my father didn't sit there and judge the ones that came asking for help. But to decide certain people aren't worthy of saving if they get sick is completely reprehensible and shows how little you understand what a medical professional's code of ethics means to them.
We aren't under martial law. No amount of legislation can legislate the stupid out of people. It might flatten the stupid curve, to borrow a popular phrase, but not erase it. All you can do is hope that common sense will prevail and in the meantime wear a mask, gloves, wash your hands and pray this very sh*tty situation comes to an end soon enough.
You've got a lot of pent up emotion there young man, you should see someone about it. If you bought houses like you write poss, you'd be a rich man and . . . your time would be better spent.
No worries tho'. Now is a great time to get more involved in real estate investing. Everyone is acting like this covid-19 thing is the end of the world.
I've survived a few "end of the world" panics (viet name war, cold war, 87' crash, noro virus, dot com bubble, great recession, 2008 real estate market crash, SARS, Ebola, bad raccoon I once ate, on and on, you know the drill, been there done that and the world still goes on.)
Buy smart, buy now and know your exit strategy.
Near, far, wherever you are, I believe that my heart will go on,
Here's another good example:
Cities Use Drones To Monitor People & Enforce Social Distancing
The irony of using drones from China for this . . .
@Gary L Wallman is there a way to move this post to reddit or something? Can we take the time that we would use to post here about this and put it towards evaluating and making real estate deals?
We all know where this is going. Since I've been alive, this country has gotten weaker and weaker as far as liberties. Our Constitution says that we all have the right to life, the pursuit of happiness and liberty. As we know, some people have the right to life, a lot of people expect that everyone should have happiness and a large majority of people are ok with their liberties becoming more and more dictated by our Government.
In the 90's we all waited while our Governors and President Clinton gave us back our money in Stimulus checks. We waited by our door to suck the nectar. We needed the Gov't to fix our lives. Then in the 2000's, Chysler and GM needed to be bailed out because they made models that people couldn't afford and they needed a bailout to avoid bankruptcy. Then the lenders in the late 2000's decided to lend money to people who were to stupid to do math, foreclosed or short saled their homes. The banks got bailed out by our the Gov't and we all move on. Then 911 happens and Muslim terrorist fly planes into our buildings and kill thousands of americans. We can no longer wait at the gate for our loves ones because we are afraid of the enemies. Now we wait in long lines and take our shoes off and get scanned by advanced technology. Lastly, COVID-19 arrives and yes we have listened to our Governments and have quarentined and have for the most part flat lined cases according to World Ometer. Recently we wait for our Trump money to fix our lives once again. No one has learned from their mistakes, they contain to borrow, borrow and live outside of their means. IMO, we should allow all businesses to open and abide by social distancing and allow for the economy to open up. For the weak and the old, we should continue to quarentine them until they have recovered. In fact most places in the US don't have problems with the virus, it's the highly populated areas, especially the disease infected New York City. For the rest of us, we should be allowed to use our best judgement to stay safe. I want my liberty back, but as usual the weak will always set the baseline. This country is weak, but luckily myself as many others are strong and won't allow the Gov't to take away our freedoms.
I live nearby in San Jose, I can tell you they are not doing that. Stop listening to rumors and fake news.
With all the complaining, I don't see anyone talking about what would happen to their precious job if we had stayed the course. I can tell you retail businesses will either shut down due to the lack of business or it will have to stop operating if employees are getting infected left and right. A small company won't have the cash to pay everyone on sick leave. A big company isn't going to deal with the liability of having employees dropping left and right. The situation sucks, just deal with it for 2 months the best you can and hope that we can recover as quickly as possible. No one is crashing the economy because they want you to stay home. You think the government officials want to listen to you whine and moan. Give me a break.
Originally posted by @Sylvia B.:
Here are two excellent examples of government overreach in this "crisis":
1. From a high school friend of mine who lives in San Jose, CA:
"So does Shelter-In-Place mean I can’t be out side gardening in my backyard or working on my house and doing stucco and fixing possible leaks in walls??? Apparently so. I noticed the San Jose Police Helicopter circling above Glider Elementary School (now closed, since June 2018) when 2 officers enter my open gate on my side yard to tell me that only emergency construction was currently allowed. I pointed out to them that the only reason of a possible spread of the virus was because they came into my back yard without a mask.. I told them to leave... Eventually they did... After I got a warning... I said they didn’t have permission to come onto my property... They said they announced who they were.l and asked me to get off of the ladder... I said, “why am I going to run away?” Or are you going to shoot me... Obviously, I’m a danger to them if I have a trowel of stucco in my hand... When did it become the interest of the police to stop someone applying stucco on the back of his house... but it’s okay for everyone and his dog to take a walk?????"
2. [Headline] Springfield, Greene County leaders loosen some restrictions on stay-at-home order
That "loosening" boils down to this: "Springfield Mayor Ken McClure said many businesses previously deemed “non-essential” will be allowed to take orders via telephone or the Internet. Those businesses will also be allowed to fulfill the orders through shipping, delivery, or curbside pickup, effective immediately."
Those restrictions should never have been put in place, and are exactly what the people who are protesting are reacting to. For a little perspective, Greene County has a population of about 300,000, 85 virus cases, (39 active) and 7 deaths.
Originally posted by @Tom Makinen:
Of course! What was I thinking? Why would I believe my good friend, whom I have known for over 40 years, when I have you, a stranger on the internet, to tell me what is true?
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
So, @JD Martin, let me understand this. And I want to be perfectly clear and I would like you to be as well. You think that someone who catches this diseases during a peaceful protest, which is specifically outlined in the First Amendment of the Constitution, your belief is that person should "die in the streets, alone?" That's your stance on this? That's your wish? You can't talk about rights in a singular fashion. They apply to everyone or they apply to no one. You can't pick and choose who has certain rights and who doesn't. This isn't an "I disagree with your stance so the rights don't apply to you." That's both ignorant and dangerous. I have to say that your logic here is astoundingly flawed and you need to take a firm look at how you interpret rights.
Both in Italy and in Spain, doctors have had to decide who to put on ventilators. Literally exercising the power of life and death. For those doctors the choice has been traumatic. They want to save everyone---but there just wasn't enough ventilators or ICU beds or staff. (Ventilation is very staff intensive.) So while I don't want ANY human being to die in the streets...everyone with COVID 19 who dies-dies alone, away from family and friends. It's another stress on medical personnel who try to be there for dying patients. My friend had a baby without her husband two weeks ago, and they reunited only 4 days later when she was released (C-section.) COVID-19 means you don't get to say goodbye in person. (Or in my friend's case, witness your son's birth.) She and her newborn wore a mask except to eat. There are people who are dying unrelated to COVID. My child nannies for a neurosurgery nurse. 65% of surgeries are put off due to COVID risk. Some of them will die as a result of that delay. I don't know that we will ever know the complete story of who died as a tangent to the disease. That said, if there comes a point where there aren't enough ventilators or ICU beds for COVID-19 patients, I think it's COMPLETELY fair that the doctors choose to save people who haven't flagrantly resisted the SAHO, or wearing masks when out, or who participated in protest crowds without proper PPE or distancing. You say you'll assume the risk, then assume the risk! And of course, if it DOESN'T get that bad here, it will be because of people who were mature and caring enough to stay at home/wear masks/keep away from others. And people like OP will forever deny that it would have been awful without those measures being taken.
You don’t have to believe me, you can look at the flight plan yourself on the chopper.
Originally posted by @Sylvia B.:
Originally posted by @Tom Makinen:
Of course! What was I thinking? Why would I believe my good friend, whom I have known for over 40 years, when I have you, a stranger on the internet, to tell me what is true?
You are free in so far as your actions do not harm someone else. I am an anesthesiologist caring for COVID patients. Your "freedom" to get the virus puts me at risk. Your "freedom" to spread the virus as an asymptomatic carrier puts others at risk which puts me at risk. Why, if you are free to do what you wish, am I not free to stay as safe as possible? I suppose I am free to quit, but my conscience won't allow it. Where is your conscience?
@Bryan Beal
I’m shocked that this thread hasn’t been shut down for one. This is gonna be looked at back on as a huge government failure to the American people unless Trump is using it as a way to show the true colors of those who are behind it. Gates needs to go down. Hopefully this be one positive outcome of it all.
@Brandon Hicks it has stayed away from being a political thread let's keep it that way. Political posting is not allowed.
My thoughts are that this is about Risk:Benefit analysis. There are people being put at risk by the shut down not just economically but health wise. Electric surgery isn't all tummy tucks. Some of those delays in surgery will cost lives down the road. Vulnerable people are put at risk of abuse and worsening mental illness due to the length of this lockdown. The economic and non-Covid-19 health impact isn't as easily measured as COVID-19 cases. So when the OP brings up freedoms he is challenging everyone to ask where we are going too far. It isn't all or nothing.
@John Collins thank you
Peter, haven't I been telling you not to eat dead animals you find on the side of the road?
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
I agree.
Many have been affected and will continue to be affected so we need to be cautious. At the same time, we need to be aware of the bigger picture. Giving up our civil liberties without much opposition is as scary to me as the virus itself.
As you mentioned, the mortality rate is well below 1% for folks with no pre-existing conditions. While 1 single death is devastating, so are the effects of this shut down. Millions are now unemployed and that can lead to other hardships including divorce, alcoholism, depression, domestic violence, etc. Even if the shutdown ended today, the effects may not be so quickly reversed.
That being said, we're the most powerful and resilient country on the planet and I'm faithful that this will pass.
God Bless America!
- Abel Curiel
You are a very confused man:
Legal rights are the things people can do or have unalienable access to as codified in the laws and statutes that govern the land.
Moral rights are the things that people can do or have unalienable access to as defined to the prevailing societal conventions of the time.
The Federal and States leaders are exercising their legal rights to limit certain social activities to try to contain a GLOBAL PANDEMIC.
Morally and Leagaly we (you,I and everyone else) owe it to our fellow citizens to follow the social guidelines put on us by our legally elected leaders.
You may want to refer to the 3 Documents which framed the Moral and Legal framework of the United States:
Magana Carta (Established the Moral Obligations of the Leader of the Colonies in America)
Declaration of the United States (The Consequences of and Reasons England lost it's Moral Right to govern th colonies)
Constitution (Which codifies the Moral Rights into a framework for Laws in the United States)
So No you nor I do NOT have the Moral or Legal right to "pick and choose" what is "right or wrong"
In your posts you keep asserting that your "right" to be stupid and possibly infecting other during a GLOBAL PANDEMIC is equivalent to someone following the legal social restrictions meant to keep everyone including you as safe as possible.
In a Global Pandemic we are ALL in the same boat and the sooner that WE close the infection rate AND develop a Vaccination, the sooner we will be able to ALL get back to work.