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Updated about 3 years ago, 09/30/2021
COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
@Tarik N.
What percentage of the us population has died from Covid-19. I’m sure you will find that it’s a very low percentage. Why do we were about a very low percentage? Or should we just stay in our cocoons all the time. 
Get em brother!
Bryan says -“maybe we are causing more harm overall then we would be if we didn’t close down all of these business and put millions of people out of work.” (Seems reasonable)
Much of the criticism back “you don’t value life, and you are selfish blah blah blah.” Virtue signaling is boring, If you don’t want to understand his argument fine but don’t act as if you are his morally superior.
I have more then a few single moms and some hard working tenets, they are stressed as hell about their jobs.
My Grandma didn’t want to die because she was scared that someone would miss work to go to her funeral. She would have thrown herself off a bridge before she would have shut down the god damn economy over a her (a little ninety year old lady) not getting sick. I’m not saying she was right but in her opinion if you got some people busting their *** to put food on the table and shoes on Junior’s feet they are societies priority not her. She was feisty but America kicked everybody’s *** back then!
@Bryan Beal
I’m all for freedom. Above all else.
To my knowledge, there are 3 or 4 states that didn’t enact ANY stay at home or lockdown of any kind.
ND, SD, WY, and I think Arkansas. Governor Noem of SD said something along the lines of our citizens are responsible enough to take safe measures on their own.
Translation, “personal FREEDOM, make up your own mind.”
I live in Hawaii, where we currently have 37% unemployment, the governor is taking about suspending evictions for up to a year, and just extended the shutdown another month, despite the fact that Oahu, the most populated island, has had no new cases for the past couple of days.
I’ve been itching to leave this place and have been talking about it with my other half for a few years now, and Hawai’i is doing a great job of ushering me out the door.
I am now looking at one of those 3 or 4 states to call home.
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” -Ben Franklin
All we did was kick the can down the road. Watch for the next “flare up” and the power grab that will follow.
@Bryan Beal I agree with you and I’m not afraid to say it! Quarantine is meant to stop the movement of the sick, not the healthy. I understand that people can be asymptotic but I believe that individual freedom is most important. Those at high risk should stay at home and everyone else can make their own choice. Everyone is well aware of the risk unless they have been living under a rock and they should be trusted to do what they think is best for their own family.
Worried about the healthcare system being overwhelmed? The extra hospital beds that were built aren’t even being used. Hospitals have to be bailed out so they won’t go bankrupt. Plus, the calls to suicide hotlines have increased 1000 fold since this all started. Google it. That sounds like an epidemic in itself.
It made sense to take extreme precautions in the beginning since there were many unknowns but now that we have hard evidence of the very low mortality rate and that almost all deaths come from those over 60 (despite what you see on the news) we need to open the economy!
Originally posted by @Tarik N.:
@Bryan Beal
Please don’t go “the cure is worse than the disease.” 46,000 people have died in ONE MONTH. 13 times September 11. We need to follow the scientists. They know. This is not about freedom or being an adult. It’s about acting in concert for the good all of us. Ask, guarantee you if you were feverish right now not knowing if you’ll survive, you wouldn’t be thinking this way.
It is though. The world has about 7.6 billion people in it. So far there are around 180,000 confirmed deaths worldwide from COVID-19. That is 0.002% of the population. I'm not saying this disease isn't real, or that people should just ignore it, but should we destroy our economy and make the entire world suffer over this?
@John Collins has the right idea here.
I am a paramedic in New York. People are dying at an alarming rate. The ability of this virus to spread so easily and quickly is why it is a problem. Yes the death rate is much lower than other outbreaks, BUT the volume of infected is astronomical and is the reason why all these measures NEED to be taken. Last week one hospital I was at just didn’t have oxygen to give to patients to keep them alive...
By taking stress off of the healthcare system but closing everything non-essential, we avoid deaths that could otherwise be prevented. The death rate would quickly shoot up if we were unable to care for those
In short, the restriction on liberty is saving countless lives. Death rate shouldn’t drive your thought process, the volume should.
Somehow politics always get in the way. Block this and that. Cause one party is always trying to make the other look bad and vice versa.
Plus election year doesn't help.
Hopefully we'll learn from this and build extra hospitals and have them stockpile mask, and other items we are short on to prevent this from happening again.
Originally posted by @Taylor Reed:
You are free in so far as your actions do not harm someone else. I am an anesthesiologist caring for COVID patients. Your "freedom" to get the virus puts me at risk. Your "freedom" to spread the virus as an asymptomatic carrier puts others at risk which puts me at risk. Why, if you are free to do what you wish, am I not free to stay as safe as possible? I suppose I am free to quit, but my conscience won't allow it. Where is your conscience?
Taylor,
Sorry but that's a bit of a stretch. If I'm symptomatic and I come around you or others that is indeed wrong. If I don't know that I'm ill and I come in contact with others, that's called living. There are all kinds of invisible bogeymen out there. I personally don't want to live my life afraid of all of them.
God bless you for your work with the ill.
Respectfully,
Gary
Damn, I hate to be this guy, but all I'm hearing is weak excuses, from weak spirits. I'll respond to everyone with the following. If we stick to the facts and take fear and emotion out of the equation for a moment, we can see with some clarity. Don't look at what the government and media are saying, look at what they are doing.
1: if the medical system was overburdened, our nurses and doctors wouldn't be dancing all over social media. And while there are MANY nurses and doctors speaking up about the truth of whats happening (all over social media), there are other out there that are not as willing to put their career on the line. So they are telling you by dancing in these videos. Do you think if they were over burdened, they would have time to create DANCE VIDEOS? Let's use some logic here. They are obviously not busy and trying to tell us something.
2: As previously stated, the death rate is EXTREMELY LOW. The death rate is lower than the flu according to the actual death stats, the CDC website and even clown Dr. Fauci himself. He also recently stated that this was LESS deadly than the flu. Look it up.
This carries a lot of weight because if you guys are scared to go outside, thats fine. Stay your *** home. But you can't tell other people who are healthy and know the risk to stay home without stomping all over their rights. This is how they use fear to control people, after a while, people want to tell you what you can and can't do because they are scared. Also please realize that when you do this, you are technically oppressing others based on your own fear, and not facts.
3: If this was a REAL pandemic, certain things would be happing that aren't and vice versa. For example, if this was real, wouldn't the government immediately shut down snail mail? Think about it...
If this was a substance that can be airborne (a virus cannot by the way, look it up), why would they have mail, hand carried from place to place and person to person...........
Another example would be the passing of a bill to fast track 5G rollout. If this was a real pandemic, why would you pick this time to roll out a plan like this when those resources could go towards helping the pandemic?
Maybe now things are starting to become clear. If your afraid to go outside and be around people it probably because you watch too much TEL-A-VISION, which is exactly what they want. For people to be so fearful that they not only give up their liberties and rights, but are also willing to become an agent for the system and give up and oppress their neighbor.
I would like to remind everyone who reads this that you made it this far, to this site, to gather around STRONG like minded personalities to GROW. Because the STRONG invest so we can achieve true freedom. Financial Freedom, so we are not a slave to the money system. I would like to remind you of what the governing bodies will not. YOU ARE STRONG!! THE HUMAN IMMUNE SYSTEM IS AMAZING!! BUT, it must be maintained. FEAR causes STRESS and ALL conditions get worse under stress. Many are in an EXTREME state of stress, especially the elderly. REMEMBER, you are only as strong as you think you are. So if you allow someone to put the idea that you are weak into your system, then it will weaken you. Take care of yourselves, your diet, you immune system. If you haven't in the past, do it now. Use the time to refocus on your health. Maybe some of you are scared because deep down you know your weak and haven't been taking care of yourselves. People always like something to blame so they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. Until they GROW, and move past such behaviors and dysfunctions.
If you worried about getting sick, stay home and take care of yourself. Eat better, work on your immune system and get healthy. Tumeric, Black seed oil, Vitiman C and D (Sunlight) are all things we should be getting plenty of. This should be the advice that is shared. But don't tell others what they should be doing because you feel weak. Those of us that are STRONG will always do more, we must. We will always lead by example and show you the way. Don't use your weakness to bring us down, let our STRENGTH inspire and push you forward. Do your own research so you can strengthen your mind, which will help you raise your SPIRITS!! Use your time wisely and educate yourself so you can't be easily tricked by the media and misinformation they spread. The key to freedom in many of these types of situation is KNOWLEDGE. This is one of the reason I'm studying to be a doctor after my Real Estate career, so that we have a doctor on the inside who isn't motivated by the system, or money. If your offended at all by this post, that's good. Getting offended is all apart of waking up from the fear.
Ignorance is weakness, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.
sending you all positive vibes. God Bless.
@Bryan Beal
Despite what you hear from "Constitution experts" on TV, no president or governor or health department official has the authority to suspend the Constitution by ordering people not to congregate, or by closing businesses, or by falsely imprisoning people in their homes.
The TV legal experts usually speak of "balancing" individual rights against government interests with words like "compelling state interest" and "least restrictive means." But this is a false pretense. The Constitution doesn't contemplate any "balancing."
Unless a jury of your peers convicts you of a crime, your constitutional rights are absolute. And it's the governors' sworn duty to protect these rights, not to violate them.
Is this what James Madison was referring to when he declared in Federalist 47:
"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."
I have regrettably observed that many modern Americans know almost nothing about the Constitution, or about American history, or about the Source and nature of law.
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It seems the culprits responsible for this shameful situation include at least the public schools, the "managed media," career politicians, cowardly pastors and a lazy citizenry.
There is a virus. And there is a virus agenda. They are not the same thing.
My field of expertise is the U.S. Constitution. And I have already offered you my opinion that many actions of state governors are not lawful, and that no emergency or plea of necessity excuses a governor's violation of his or her state constitution.
Of course, I am not a medical doctor, but many health professionals believe and the CDC has admitted that the original estimates of the virility and the lethality of COVID-19 were grossly overestimated and that, despite the admitted inflating of COVID-19-related deaths by the CDC, this so-called "pandemic" is turning out to be less deadly than a normal flu season.
So, there's good news about the virus, but there's not-so-good news about the virus agenda.
The question I have is: Despite the flattening of the curve, lower hospital admissions and a falling fatality rate, why are many governors are ramping up their edicts and mandates when it seems they should be relaxing or rescinding them? The lockdown continues in "lockstep." And on the national stage, Drs. Fauci and Birx seem committed to structuring a "new normal" for all of us when there seems to be no reason why we can't return to the "old normal."
Now, that's because the belief that the virus was both deadly and novel was the pretext for governments to justify policies that, despite their draconian nature, most Americans were willing to suffer and endure because they perceived this to be for the benefit of their families and communities. But as each day passes, citizens are feeling betrayed by the news that the overreaction to COVID-19 by the WHO and the CDC may have been intentional and calculated. This breeds further resentment regarding the increasingly despotic actions of governors.
Politicians are going for a major power grab under the guise of "wartime rules". I fear that this could be the beginning of severe loss of freedom for Americans at the cost of a stimulus package and a few months of not paying rent. They are completely out of hand and selling our future down the river over a disease that is nowhere near as bad as it has been made out to be by the so-called experts. Who pays for all of their promises? We do!
Yup, they are going to shut down the economy during an election year.
@Ray Smith first and foremost, we all appreciate the work you're doing on the frontlines to fight this. No doubt that it's taken a toll on many and the work you're doing needs to be acknowledged.
That said, NYC is, far and away, the epicenter of this disease in our country. As a matter of perspective, you're seeing the worst of what this virus has to offer. That is NOT the case in many other parts of the country. As I've said what feels like a million times on this thread, this is not a one-size-fits-all. Some parts of the country and hot spots for this virus (NY, NJ) while others have limited exposure to it. The risk is not the same for all so it shouldn't all be treated the same for all.
The initial push to get a handle on this is one thing but this has dragged out far too long. Let's work together and find a middle ground where we protect those who need it and allow those to get back to their normal lives that don't. Unfortunately, it seems everyone wants one extreme or the other - somewhere in the middle is usually in the best interest of the many.
Speaking of NY: "The preliminary results of a New York study show 13.9% of state residents have COVID-19 antibodies, including 21.2% of NYC residents. Given that antibodies take some weeks to develop, it's likely the true numbers are at least somewhat higher." https://www.marketwatch.com/st...
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @Taylor Reed:
You are free in so far as your actions do not harm someone else. I am an anesthesiologist caring for COVID patients. Your "freedom" to get the virus puts me at risk. Your "freedom" to spread the virus as an asymptomatic carrier puts others at risk which puts me at risk. Why, if you are free to do what you wish, am I not free to stay as safe as possible? I suppose I am free to quit, but my conscience won't allow it. Where is your conscience?
Taylor,
Sorry but that's a bit of a stretch. If I'm symptomatic and I come around you or others that is indeed wrong. If I don't know that I'm ill and I come in contact with others, that's called living. There are all kinds of invisible bogeymen out there. I personally don't want to live my life afraid of all of them.
God bless you for your work with the ill.
Respectfully,
Gary
Gary,
Thank you for the blesses. If you were ill I would certainly hope you would avoid others. Herein lies the problem, however. You may be COMPLETELY asymptomatic and be spreading this around. You don't seem to fully understand the implications of that statement. Without it, COVID is nothing. Any comparison to the flu is not apples to apples. When you get the flu, you become infectious as you develop symptoms, so this helps keep the infection rate low. As far as another comment here about it being no more deadly than the flu, well, that's not the point either. There are two types of death "rates." One is the number of those who die who are infected. Another is a temporal rate; the number of new deaths over a period of time. This is why hospitals have been over burdened. The flu has a much lower temporal rate because it is not as contagious nor infectious. Therefore we need no draconian measures to keep from being over run when dealing with the flu.
While I do agree with you that "living" involves certain risks, and you are free to accept those risks for yourself, you are not free to accept other people's risks. Yes, you can make the argument that those that are fearful should stay home. But this disease has no such boundaries. If the population suddenly became fearless, the hospital system would be over run and people would unnecessarily die. There is a Kantian philosophical term: categorical imperative. It states that you should behave in a manner that you promote all others to behave. What we are doing in this country is working. If we all went back to "living" we'd see many more deaths and our death rate would climb. And that's a fact.
As far as my words being a stretch, respectfully, I doubt you'd want to say that to the husband of a perfectly healthy mid-30s woman who seemed ok, but then sat up in bed, grabbed the bed rails, turned gray, and died. Nothing could be done. This virus is no joke. It isn't the flu. Not even close. Look up the term hypercoagulable.
I so much appreciate that I am not in a hospital system that has been overrun. I may post a dance :) Many I trained with aren't so lucky. The lead time on social distancing etc. helped us here. If we abandon what we are doing irresponsibly and without sober reasoning, we will see a resurgence. Yes, the economy matters. And yes, the economy is going to take quite a hit. But there is no bankrupsy equivalent when it comes to death.
Stay safe, and I do respect your opinion, and your right to have it. I am a strong believer in a free society, and will gladly fight for your rights. I won't, however, fight for anyone's right to be irresponsible.
Taylor
Originally posted by @Tom Makinen:
Yup, they are going to shut down the economy during an election year.
They already did that.
@Bryan Beal
I think you’re lacking basic knowledge about public health issues and what a pandemic is. But to your credit, none of us experienced this during our lifetime so you had good reason to ignore. My parents work in health care and I have relatives that teaches public health at universities that overlaps with insurance, so I know the potential damage of reopening the country prematurely and what you’re basically proposing is completely wrong. Period. If you look at this situation from a business standpoint, the risk reward ratio is so unbalanced it’s not even a question. And yet this country is not a business, freedom means nothing in the face of death. Maybe some parts of the country can open earlier than others but now is certainly not the time. So rather than talking about freedom you should talk about discipline and coming together. Freedom right now has a cost and it might just cost capitalism, are you willing to burden that cost?
@Jake Zhang again, you're in NYC - the epicenter of this virus. Your perspective is valid but it's also skewed. The majority of the country is not nearly at the same risk level as NYC. You're entitled to your opinion and that's fine but you can't convince me that everyone's needs are the same and this affects everyone the same. That's simply and factually not accurate.
And if you're asking me if I'm OK with capitalism being the cost of keeping the economy closed, in this circumstance, that answer is a firm no. 1,000,000 times out of 1,000,000 no. If you're willing to let capitalism be a casualty of these state shutdowns, you and I will never agree on much.
I'm an intensive care unit nurse in California. I have three things to say.
1- Thank you to everyone who is staying at home. Directly from the front lines, the time bought to spread out patients, develop new protocols and get equipment is saving lives every day. Thank you.
2 - I love the American ideals of self-determination and liberty. We should protect our freedoms from authoritarianism and I admire your willingness to speak up for that. However, the personal liberty of one person should not infringe on the personal liberties of others. Whether you personally get this virus is ultimately NOT about you. It's also about the 2.5 people average per person that you infect within 5 days, and the 2.5 people they infect. If you are here on bigger pockets, you understand the power of exponential growth.. 250% growth in 5 days average incubation period means you go from one case to 97 cases in one month. In the US we are seeing death rates around 4.5%, that's 4 people's lives in one month. What about their freedom? Should American freedom really allow us to risk the lives of others?
3 - Our first death in my hospital from COVID19 was a 31 year old with no other medical conditions. He happened to work at an airport. Are you sure you're safe? Do you live alone? What about your family? I agree that the financial concerns from quarantine are huge, but if the choice is the health of the market vs... death, perhaps it's time to rethink our priorities?
Anyway.. stay safe. Please stay home. I hope I don't see any of you or your family in the ICU.
@Bryan BealI'm saying the exact opposite, i'm saying allowing "freedom" now will cost capitalism to fail in the near future. No one would be around... and i do not agree with the NYC vs other area assessment, yes NYC density is higher than any other city in the US, but restaurants, bars, movie theaters, gyms, coffee shops, hotels, airports, schools are everywhere and every single place will discourage social distancing and aid the spread of the virus... this is not the flu... to save capitalism, you have to sacrifice now, and hell it's not even all about capitalism at this point is about living and dying
"Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do?" All the time. Think of this as the equivalent of a speed limit, it exists because people have poor judgement about levels of risk. You might feel you can go 100 mph, but if the road is designed for 60 mph you are putting yourself as well as others at risk, sure you might just crash into a tree and only hurt yourself, but you might crash into someone else and hurt them or their family. That is what the lock down is about, everyone else. You might not care about your own health figuring you can beat it, and maybe you can but while you are sick and are asymptomatic, or have mild symptoms you can spread the virus, putting other people at risk, the same way you would put them at risk carelessly driving / or excessively speeding.
37 million Americans live with a chronic lung disease
70 million adults in U.S. are obese
34.2 million Americans have diabetes.
Just these 3 conditions alone equate to HALF the population of the US, and that's not counting the elderly. These are the people most at risk of death, but people with no known conditions have also died from this.
On other thing I want to point out, an actual death rate is determined on the conclusion of an infection, ie. Recovered vs Dead, not Infected Vs Dead Recovered vs dead in the US right now 49,000 deaths, 85,000 recoveries. that's 36% casualty rate for anyone who was able to get tested and was positive, and while there may be many more infections that are asymptomatic or never get bad enough to get tested it is still not looking good.
@Jake Zhang understood, my apologies for misinterpreting your question. NYC has the most cases and the most deaths, by far, in the entire country. I don't see how you can disagree with that but so be it.
And, let's take a step back from the "No one would be around" comment. Yes, people are dying and that's always terrible (I cannot stress that enough) but the VAST majority of people who do contract this, fully recover. So while it's (still) terrible people are dying at the hands of this virus, this was NEVER going to be a situation where we all just go away and capitalism fails.
The studies coming in are suggesting lower death rates. Perhaps slightly more than the flu with no vaccine. 25% of the deaths are in those over 65 and more deaths over the age of 100 than under 30. NYC metro with 50% of the share maybe due to earlier flights from Europe and spatial factors. The info is still fluid. It appears somewhat manageable for California care system, that's 15% of the population. There are some med cocktails with zinc that show promise and seem to be removing symptoms in hours.
It is hard to say this is all good news, perhaps better news than projected.
Good luck!
@Ryan S. - the entire argument for me falls apart when you compare it to speeding. That is, in every sense of the phrase, against the law and yes, most certainly does put other people at risk. Although, if you never drove your car or went outside, much like the scenario we're discussing here, you wouldn't be at risk from me driving - either legally or illegally. Much like if YOU stay inside, you're protecting yourself. If you don't see or talk to anyone else while this is going on, completely quarantine and shelter-in-place, you're not going to get this virus. So you're still safe and, more importantly, well within your right to do that. Just like it applies to the other side of this discussion.
You obviously don’t understand the problem of this disease and the issue of silent carriers. You might feel fine today but you could be infected and passing it onto others.
From the economic side of things, small business will close down on their own due to decrease in business regardless and the sick pay they have to give out once their employee is infected. Big companies are not going to keep their office open when their employees are dropping for financial reasons and liability reason. Why are food processing plants going? Who is going back to the casinos other than your hardcore gambling attic.
If you want people to die so badly, at least make their death worth while.