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Updated about 3 years ago, 09/30/2021
COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
Here's where you went off the track:
"Tell that to the millions of immigrants who risk life and limb trying to get to the 'Land of the Free' for economic reasons. More people die of poverty then any virus."
Escaping poverty and oppression are NOT "economic" reasons. Those are socio-political reasons. Immigrants accept the risks of escaping oppression and seeking freedom only to find more oppression and even atrocities at the hands of the U.S. Government.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Nancy P.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me address these one at a time -
@John Collins - I think you're missing the point. No one is arguing that the health care system is overburdened. If you choose to quarantine yourself so you don't contract this virus, that's perfectly fine. You stay inside, away from the world around you and you stay safe and cozy in your home. No problem with that at all. But if myself or anyone else is willing to carry the risk and go about our daily lives (and be surrounded by others that are willing to carry that same risk), why do you have a problem with that?
You talk about workers being "disproportionately affected" by this. And yes, that's exactly my point. Do you think that they don't also want to get back to work? If someone is willing to carry the risk, they should be allowed to go back to work. If they're not, they won't be forced to and they can stay home and stay safe. And I never came close to implying we shouldn't take care of the critically ill - don't put words in my mouth and get off your soap box. Rah rah.
@Scott Passman - At a certain point the damage done by shutting down the country is greater than the treatment itself. A large number of people who are taking these tests and burdening the health care system are not sick and not showing any symptoms. If only those who needed those tests and care got those tests and care, we'd be in a much better situation.
And same point as above - if someone is at risk and they want to stay at home, they can stay at home and quarantine to protect themselves. If others want to get back to real life, and we all agree to the risks involved, we can do that without impacting those who don't.
@Scott Wolf - You clearly didn't read my entire post. Drunk driving is both irresponsible and ILLEGAL. I specifically say "within the confines of the law" which obviously went unnoticed. And yes, everything has intended and unintended consequences - but if we allow those to quarantine who want to quarantine and those who want to get back to work get back to you, it's a win/win. Do you disagree?
@Bryan Beal Y'all got a good point.
They are talking about Covid-19 because they don't want to face the real issues.
More people die of more than a dozen other diseases every day, not counting obesity, not counting car accidents, not counting accidental deaths and drowning, Yes, there are more drowning deaths! You can't win a emotional fight (Covid-19 and sheer unfounded terror) with facts.
Facts don't matter to them. They've become the "Land of the Enslaved and the Home of the Terrified".
When you look at the Facts, the whole world looks a lot rosier.
I'm in a buyin' mode because they're in a "Scared Sellin' Mode. Don't Wake them up (tho' I don't think you can anyway), cause the deals are getting better and I'm swooping them up. None are so deaf as those who will not hear.
Keep up the Spirit bro' there is a future to plan for.
Peter Johnson, that's a ridiculously outdated graphic there. The US ALONE lost over 4500 people yesterday. Beating tuberculosis handily. Not to mention how silly it is to compare COVID-19 to the others that aren't nearly as communicable. So much misunderstanding here. I wish statistics and logic were required to graduate high school.
Then...
OP worries about "our ability to grow wealth through REI." Man, I can only pray for your heart to be softened. Worried about your money when lives are at stake. You don't seem to understand that just having the old folks stay home will not solve the problem. Despite two pages plus of people trying to explain it to you.
Also, did you study history? Have you ever researched the INCREDIBLE financial devastation caused by two World Wars? Yet, here I sit, the child of a man who stormed Omaha Beach on D-Day, living in wealth. I just returned from 3 years of living in Germany, where an even greater percentage of the population has a decent standard of living than the US---and that country was DESTROYED by the war. (Hell, in the three years we were there, 17 bombs were found in my city. WWII bombs still are unearthed seventy years later!). It will probably be an incredible financial devastation. But we will rise up again from that.
Lastly, since you also seem to not understand civics, a brief article explaining how your "rights" are not exactly the same as your internalized idea of what American stands for. https://www.politico.com/news/...
You quote Politico? Can't you find a credible source instead?
How many people have been exposed and infected that nothing happened to them?
You don't know that number do you?
How many children have died from Covid-19
You don't know that number do you?
How many of the cases were related to people 65 & older who had obesity problems and an underlying medical condition ?
You don't know that number do you?
"Most cases are people over 65 who are obese and have underlying medical conditions" is the correct answer.
Why are we laying off 22,000,000 people (which drives up suicide rates) when the problem is basically obesity,
which is a CHOICE!, and which is a factor in dying from Covid-19. People are Obese because they choose to be obese! Eat less, and you lose weight. Control your weight and Type II Diabetes goes away. When Type II diabetes goes away, you don't die from Covid-19. Follow the facts.
Obesity is FAT people. There! I said it. Don't get fat and Stay Alive. Lose that weight, baby. Live long and prosper.
SO----
If Politico "isn't credible", I am sure you will have no issue refuting the FACTS in that article, right? Show me how wrong I am. Here's some more facts for you:
Fact:
The studies showing obesity is a major factor are not rigorous studies.
Fact:
In these studies, obesity does not appear to be a factor for people over 65. That means, age is a factor more than size. People cannot control how old they are.
Fact:
People of all ages have underlying medical conditions. I know three children with cystic fibrosis, and dozens with asthma. I guess they don't matter as long as you get your freedom, right?
Fact:
Obesity is considered a disease, not a willpower problem. FAR more complex than just "eat less".
Fact:
Even if it WERE a willpower problem, obese people cannot get to a healthy weight in the next two months even if they fast. (Fasting has risks as well.) Are you going to consign them to death so you can go to a movie?
Fact:
Suicide is ALSO a choice. Right?
NOBODY knows how many are infected that we don't know. Guess what, that's true of the regular flu as well! Of any contagious disease! All you can do is compare death rates of people who HAVE BEEN TESTED. Any other argument is just silly. So if that makes COVID death rate .2, regular flu death rate is far below .1. COVID 19 is UNQUESTIONABLY more dangerous than regular flu.
If you cannot understand how YOUR freedom infects OTHER people, then get a tutor. I think you just like to deny facts.
At least admit to being selfish and quit trying to pretend you're a patriot. How appropriate that both your names are nicknames for dicks.
Originally posted by @Kathy Young:
And why didn't they shut everything down during the Spainish flu pandemic? Every health care person that i have talked to says if we continue to dtay isolated, our bodies cannot build up antibodies for this. There is a different flu virus that comes out almost every season. People have a 50-50 chance if you take the vaccine. How long are we supposed to stay isolated? Child abuse has increased, domestic violence has increased, suicide has increased, drug abuse has increased, alcoholism has increased. What about their lives? The Wuhan virus, you may get, these that I just mentioned, are actually happening.
Let's not forget that a countless number of people around the world have already been exposed and built immunities to the virus starting back in November or October 2019.
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Hey Kathy, have you thought about using this website to increase your knowledge of real estate investing? Four years ago you showed up here talking about taking a Rich Dad investment course. Fifteen days ago you were complaining that you'd been taken advantage of by real estate courses repeatedly, asking for help.
This is far and away the most active you've ever been in any thread on this website. Have you thought about forgetting all about real estate investing and investing in an education in epidemiology, virology, some other branch of health care?
You've contributed essentially nothing in the way of real estate knowledge and education to this website in your twenty posts over four years. The most passion you've been able to muster about real estate investing has been on a thread about COVID-19. Maybe it's time for a change?
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John, you've been a member for four days and all we've seen out of you are conspiracy posts, including the latest stating that the virus started somewhere other than China. Do you happen to work for the Chinese Communist Party and are you being paid to post disinformation on discussion boards worldwide about the origins of the virus?
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
John, you've been a member for four days and all we've seen out of you are conspiracy posts, including the latest stating that the virus started somewhere other than China. Do you happen to work for the Chinese Communist Party and are you being paid to post disinformation on discussion boards worldwide about the origins of the virus?
Where did I say that the virus started from places other than China?
Thanks Jim. I thought this post was about the economy;and real estate is the economy, is it not?
Jim, you attack everyone; you have some serious issues; like accusing John Chang of being paid by the communist party? Why would he be on Bigger Pockets?
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Originally posted by @John Chang:
John, how is this statement possible if the virus did not originate in Wuhan, China beginning in December 31, when China reported a cluster of pneumonia cases in Wuhan, as the WHO details?
You're a conspiracy theorist.
https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/08-04-2020-who-timeline---covid-19
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Originally posted by @Kathy Young:
Thanks Jim. I thought this post was about the economy;and real estate is the economy, is it not?
Kathy, clearly you're less interested in real estate than you are in asserting your opinions about COVID-19. No amount of rationalization is going to change that. There's a record of your posts going back four years. It's obvious what you really care about to anyone who looks.
Originally posted by @Kathy Young:
And why didn't they shut everything down during the Spainish flu pandemic?
They did, too late. Also, you might remember there was a big war going on? From the linked article:
"Those who were lucky enough to avoid infection had to deal with the public health ordinances to restrain the spread of the disease. The public health departments distributed gauze masks to be worn in public. Stores could not hold sales, funerals were limited to 15 minutes. Some towns required a signed certificate to enter and railroads would not accept passengers without them. Those who ignored the flu ordinances had to pay steep fines enforced by extra officers (Deseret News). Bodies pilled up as the massive deaths of the epidemic ensued. Besides the lack of health care workers and medical supplies, there was a shortage of coffins, morticians and gravediggers (Knox). The conditions in 1918 were not so far removed from the Black Death in the era of the bubonic plague of the Middle Ages."
I happen to think discussing rights and the economy and the virus relate to real estate. I also think with the thousands of discussions and threads here on BP, that anyone who thinks this discussion is not relevant to them or their real estate endeavors could easily go find another BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR thread and dive in.
For me the most pressing issue to my real estate endeavors is the virus. Will my tenants have enough food is my concern. What will they do when they run out like one of them already has. What will happen when more of them run out very soon? Will there be rioting? Will my properties burn? Should I be looking into my insurance coverage? Their ability to move freely and go out and earn is all that is stopping them, and me - I have a mortgage on my own house too, and my financial survival affects my ability to invest. So, the right to move about freely relates to my real estate business as far as I'm concerned. I respect that others may not have the same opinion about that.
As far as this or any discussion teetering around the particular issue, I have no problem with that. It's my belief and also something I find valuable, to work through these issues together with discussion. Reading the opinions of others helps me do that. It helps me see things I might not have considered relevant or even thought of, and even allows others to show me that my thinking might be off - I'm open to that. And like all forums on the internet, I find I must sift through the nonsense to obtain the nuggets of value. I see that as an acceptable trade-off, and do not expect my answers to be handed to me in a nice little package. When a nice little package is what I desire, I read a book.
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Here's where you went off the track:
"Tell that to the millions of immigrants who risk life and limb trying to get to the 'Land of the Free' for economic reasons. More people die of poverty then any virus."
Escaping poverty and oppression are NOT "economic" reasons. Those are socio-political reasons. Immigrants accept the risks of escaping oppression and seeking freedom only to find more oppression and even atrocities at the hands of the U.S. Government.
David,
With all due respect, if you think trying to escape poverty is not an economic reason you need to hunker down with a good dictionary.
@Mr. Beal I agree with your premises. Not surprising seeing who/where disagrees.
I’m looking at you NY, IL, CA so very typical of those populace’s. You’re all half commies to begin with.
Have a great weekend!
@ all of us.
If we were ALL being honest. I’d think many of us would agree the “facts” of this “pandemic” have never justified the actions or the means.
Originally posted by @Nancy P.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Nancy P.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me address these one at a time -
@John Collins - I think you're missing the point. No one is arguing that the health care system is overburdened. If you choose to quarantine yourself so you don't contract this virus, that's perfectly fine. You stay inside, away from the world around you and you stay safe and cozy in your home. No problem with that at all. But if myself or anyone else is willing to carry the risk and go about our daily lives (and be surrounded by others that are willing to carry that same risk), why do you have a problem with that?
You talk about workers being "disproportionately affected" by this. And yes, that's exactly my point. Do you think that they don't also want to get back to work? If someone is willing to carry the risk, they should be allowed to go back to work. If they're not, they won't be forced to and they can stay home and stay safe. And I never came close to implying we shouldn't take care of the critically ill - don't put words in my mouth and get off your soap box. Rah rah.
@Scott Passman - At a certain point the damage done by shutting down the country is greater than the treatment itself. A large number of people who are taking these tests and burdening the health care system are not sick and not showing any symptoms. If only those who needed those tests and care got those tests and care, we'd be in a much better situation.
And same point as above - if someone is at risk and they want to stay at home, they can stay at home and quarantine to protect themselves. If others want to get back to real life, and we all agree to the risks involved, we can do that without impacting those who don't.
@Scott Wolf - You clearly didn't read my entire post. Drunk driving is both irresponsible and ILLEGAL. I specifically say "within the confines of the law" which obviously went unnoticed. And yes, everything has intended and unintended consequences - but if we allow those to quarantine who want to quarantine and those who want to get back to work get back to you, it's a win/win. Do you disagree?
@Bryan Beal Y'all got a good point.
They are talking about Covid-19 because they don't want to face the real issues.
More people die of more than a dozen other diseases every day, not counting obesity, not counting car accidents, not counting accidental deaths and drowning, Yes, there are more drowning deaths! You can't win a emotional fight (Covid-19 and sheer unfounded terror) with facts.
Facts don't matter to them. They've become the "Land of the Enslaved and the Home of the Terrified".
When you look at the Facts, the whole world looks a lot rosier.
I'm in a buyin' mode because they're in a "Scared Sellin' Mode. Don't Wake them up (tho' I don't think you can anyway), cause the deals are getting better and I'm swooping them up. None are so deaf as those who will not hear.
Keep up the Spirit bro' there is a future to plan for.
Peter Johnson, that's a ridiculously outdated graphic there. The US ALONE lost over 4500 people yesterday. Beating tuberculosis handily. Not to mention how silly it is to compare COVID-19 to the others that aren't nearly as communicable. So much misunderstanding here. I wish statistics and logic were required to graduate high school.
Then...
OP worries about "our ability to grow wealth through REI." Man, I can only pray for your heart to be softened. Worried about your money when lives are at stake. You don't seem to understand that just having the old folks stay home will not solve the problem. Despite two pages plus of people trying to explain it to you.
Also, did you study history? Have you ever researched the INCREDIBLE financial devastation caused by two World Wars? Yet, here I sit, the child of a man who stormed Omaha Beach on D-Day, living in wealth. I just returned from 3 years of living in Germany, where an even greater percentage of the population has a decent standard of living than the US---and that country was DESTROYED by the war. (Hell, in the three years we were there, 17 bombs were found in my city. WWII bombs still are unearthed seventy years later!). It will probably be an incredible financial devastation. But we will rise up again from that.
Lastly, since you also seem to not understand civics, a brief article explaining how your "rights" are not exactly the same as your internalized idea of what American stands for. https://www.politico.com/news/...
You quote Politico? Can't you find a credible source instead?
How many people have been exposed and infected that nothing happened to them?
You don't know that number do you?
How many children have died from Covid-19
You don't know that number do you?
How many of the cases were related to people 65 & older who had obesity problems and an underlying medical condition ?
You don't know that number do you?
"Most cases are people over 65 who are obese and have underlying medical conditions" is the correct answer.
Why are we laying off 22,000,000 people (which drives up suicide rates) when the problem is basically obesity,
which is a CHOICE!, and which is a factor in dying from Covid-19. People are Obese because they choose to be obese! Eat less, and you lose weight. Control your weight and Type II Diabetes goes away. When Type II diabetes goes away, you don't die from Covid-19. Follow the facts.
Obesity is FAT people. There! I said it. Don't get fat and Stay Alive. Lose that weight, baby. Live long and prosper.
SO----
If Politico "isn't credible", I am sure you will have no issue refuting the FACTS in that article, right? Show me how wrong I am. Here's some more facts for you:
Fact:
The studies showing obesity is a major factor are not rigorous studies.
Fact:
In these studies, obesity does not appear to be a factor for people over 65. That means, age is a factor more than size. People cannot control how old they are.
Fact:
People of all ages have underlying medical conditions. I know three children with cystic fibrosis, and dozens with asthma. I guess they don't matter as long as you get your freedom, right?
Fact:
Obesity is considered a disease, not a willpower problem. FAR more complex than just "eat less".
Fact:
Even if it WERE a willpower problem, obese people cannot get to a healthy weight in the next two months even if they fast. (Fasting has risks as well.) Are you going to consign them to death so you can go to a movie?
Fact:
Suicide is ALSO a choice. Right?
NOBODY knows how many are infected that we don't know. Guess what, that's true of the regular flu as well! Of any contagious disease! All you can do is compare death rates of people who HAVE BEEN TESTED. Any other argument is just silly. So if that makes COVID death rate .2, regular flu death rate is far below .1. COVID 19 is UNQUESTIONABLY more dangerous than regular flu.
If you cannot understand how YOUR freedom infects OTHER people, then get a tutor. I think you just like to deny facts.
At least admit to being selfish and quit trying to pretend you're a patriot. How appropriate that both your names are nicknames for dicks.
How appropriate that both your names are nicknames for dicks.
Come on Nancy address behavior vs. name calling.
ie the course of action you are taking is ignorant & not taking into account science. vs. you are ignorant.
......
My takeaways from this thread of how I'm going to modify my behavior:
being fat increases risk factors (yeah I already knew this but good reminder). I'm gonna exercise & eat healthier/less.
I 'm gonna vote. (already mostly did this)
I'm gonna wear a face covering in public (not fun hard to breathe hot n sweaty). for OTHERS & myself.
im gonna stay inside & feel compassion for those that may be financially ruined.
im gonna hold more of a rainy day fun & reduce some of my risk. a week shutdown makes our businesses go bankrupt?
I'm going to cherish the time I get to spend with family more after this.
i am going to be appreciative of how extremely LUCKY to have been born in US. Some countries like China have to think about how much to pollute killing people that way vs starving people to death every day.
The US could feed everyone in this country probably indefinitely.
........
@Bryan Beal
Actually, because the government has control over government businesses and operations, they can, at a whim, shut themselves down and restart at any time.
Civilian businesses are closed as each individual business seems necessary. Government has closed no private business.
All of the "orders" made by government officials are no more than mere suggestion. They spout out a mandate, and demand things like the out of touch individuals they are.
Your job, the local bar, the movie theater, and most everything else is shut down or limited because those businesses decided to do it voluntarily!
Some stores in my area require you to wander through a maze of barricades before you enter the store, and before you use the self checking machines. Walgreens yesterday told my daughter that she must PURCHASE one of their masks before she could enter the store.
She got back in her car and drove to another store! WINNING!
I dont wear a mask, and refuse to wipe my cart down. I will not be treated like a rat in a maze, no matter what you are fine with doing.
Yesterday a YouTube commercial showed some idiom holding a sign up to car windows asking how many people did you kill today because you are not home. And she was yelling such things without HER mask, or face shield, latex gloves, plastic rain suit, or hair net.
So many people know Zero about a virus, let alone how to protect themselves from one.
My mom stays home. She has that right. She does go to the drive-in pharmacy for her medicine, but thinks nothing of the last person at that window, of the last person that used the container you place in the tube. Never mind not knowing if the pharmacist, aids, or the checker has been infected by anyone.
We have allowed ourselves to bask in an ocean of false security.
Not I. I walk 10 properties every day, andvendvup speaking with a neighbor, resident, or owner more often than you might expect.
Infected? Stay Home!
Afraid? Stay home!
You do the best for you. And I will do the best for my family.
Just stop telling yourself that the government gas closed down so much, and understand that they each did so voluntarily!
Had a Wonderful Easter celebration with young, old, and children alike. Close quarters as usual, and when you needed more ham, you just asked someone to pass you the platter!
The USA is not closed, either.
Where do you think those bananas come from?
I did nothing wrong to lock myself up in my house. I choose not to be a victim of fear and propaganda from those who would want me continuously afraid!
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Here's where you went off the track:
"Tell that to the millions of immigrants who risk life and limb trying to get to the 'Land of the Free' for economic reasons. More people die of poverty then any virus."
Escaping poverty and oppression are NOT "economic" reasons. Those are socio-political reasons. Immigrants accept the risks of escaping oppression and seeking freedom only to find more oppression and even atrocities at the hands of the U.S. Government.
David,
With all due respect, if you think trying to escape poverty is not an economic reason you need to hunker down with a good dictionary.
... and if you think poverty is all they want to escape, you need to study up on the world, in general.
@John Collins
Fast food still works.
Pizza still comes.
Construction still happens.
Taxis still run.
Most anything you would buy, can be delivered!
So your routine doctor visit will be by phone or computer. Many do this already.
That's not such a bad thing.
Lots of changes to come.
Can you imagine if this was the early 70s, when many women didn't drive and an attendant had to be at the pump to gas up your car?
Lots work from home. 20 years ago, these people would be out of a job.
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Here's where you went off the track:
"Tell that to the millions of immigrants who risk life and limb trying to get to the 'Land of the Free' for economic reasons. More people die of poverty then any virus."
Escaping poverty and oppression are NOT "economic" reasons. Those are socio-political reasons. Immigrants accept the risks of escaping oppression and seeking freedom only to find more oppression and even atrocities at the hands of the U.S. Government.
David,
With all due respect, if you think trying to escape poverty is not an economic reason you need to hunker down with a good dictionary.
... and if you think poverty is all they want to escape, you need to study up on the world, in general.
David,
I'm always amazed at how people can try to justify their ineptitude by being discourteous to others.
I obviously never said anything about what encourages all immigrants to flee their homes to come to the US. I can't possibly know that any more then you could.
I simply stated that many come to escape poverty and that is obviously an economic reason. Not sure why you don't understand that simple fact, Jack.
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Originally posted by @Daniel Smyth:
@John Collins
Fast food still works.
Pizza still comes.
Construction still happens.
Taxis still run.
Most anything you would buy, can be delivered!
So your routine doctor visit will be by phone or computer. Many do this already.
That's not such a bad thing.
Lots of changes to come.
Can you imagine if this was the early 70s, when many women didn't drive and an attendant had to be at the pump to gas up your car?
Lots work from home. 20 years ago, these people would be out of a job.
\
In Oegon it is illegal to pump your own gas in most cities. So my son said the attendant comes up and then makes you put your own credit card into the pump.. most Oregonians have never pumped gas a day in their life and have no clue how to work the pumps LOL
- Jay Hinrichs
- Podcast Guest on Show #222
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Here's where you went off the track:
"Tell that to the millions of immigrants who risk life and limb trying to get to the 'Land of the Free' for economic reasons. More people die of poverty then any virus."
Escaping poverty and oppression are NOT "economic" reasons. Those are socio-political reasons. Immigrants accept the risks of escaping oppression and seeking freedom only to find more oppression and even atrocities at the hands of the U.S. Government.
David,
With all due respect, if you think trying to escape poverty is not an economic reason you need to hunker down with a good dictionary.
... and if you think poverty is all they want to escape, you need to study up on the world, in general.
David,
I'm always amazed at how people can try to justify their ineptitude by being discourteous to others.
I obviously never said anything about what encourages all immigrants to flee their homes to come to the US. I can't possibly know that any more then you could.
I simply stated that many come to escape poverty and that is obviously an economic reason. Not sure why you don't understand that simple fact, Jack.
So uhm...are you being discourteous to make a point or do you not realize you're doing it right back??? Just curious. LOL.
I was just having this very conversation with my sister - heated arguments that get ugly fast - lol. I mean, passion is fantastic and it's great we all get riled up over the issues that are important to us. Yet, nobody has all the answers and everyone is not always going to agree. I know it's easier said than done and I aint no saint when it comes to the matter either.
I really think that as a society, we pretty much try to avoid these sorts of conversations. The old rule of never talk politics, religion or money - lol. And obviously that's because it gets out of hand pretty easy. But, I truly believe it's really important that we have these conversations too and I think the fact we never have them leaves us with low skills to navigate them respectfully. So, hopefully, we can work through all that and learn to communicate and debate a bit better. For all the flaws of our government leaders, they are often pretty good at that (not always - lol).
@Bryan Beal
I think you need to go read a bit more on Freedom.
Your freedom stops where mine begins, bud.
I have to say that sometimes, we should think a bit outside the box.
During the time when the Spring Breakers were doing their thing, AND we knew they were spreading the Virus.... What do you think was the WORST thing to do?
SHUT DOWN the spring Breakers at the time that they had all passed the virus to themselves and tell them to go home to where ever they came from.
Imagine you had 50 Petri dishes.
One of those dishes, call it Florida, had a spreading red spot and all the others were very clear and stable.
Then you took a drop of the Florida dish and put a tiny drop in all the other 49.
I think we can clearly see that this is probably the WORST policy one could have imagined to have done.
The BEST policy would have been to just allow the Florida dish to turn red and then after two weeks, turn back to Clear.
So, if you think about it, instead of spending several TRILLIONS of dollars to try and contain 50 dishes from getting to a red state.... it would have been much better to spend less than a Trillion to let the Spring Breakers enjoy themselves for the 2 or 3 weeks locked down in their party place while they developed the HERD Immunity.
In fact, I don't even think you would need more than a Billion or even less to make these Spring Breakers Happy and keep them contained for 3 weeks!
You would have contained the virus and made a whole bunch of Spring Breakers happy... and probably got a few babies out of that as well.
The Funny thing about this way of thinking is that if you had thrown MORE money to let the Spring Breakers have MORE freedom to party, we could have actually slowed down the spread of the Virus much better than forcing them to go home to the other 49 Petri Dishes.
In this way, I agree with Bryan. Thinking to shut down everything when we knew the Virus was spreading only made it WORSE, not better.
Allowing the Party Animals to Party, giving them Money to continue under the lock down in those areas, seems to be a WIN-WIN scenario. The Party Animals win as they are happy to Party on our dime... the nation wins because the Party Animals develop Herd Immunity BEFORE they go home.
Or am I way off here?
BTW, there are lock down related deaths that are NOT being counted. For instance:
1) Increased Child Abuse deaths due to the fact that School closures resulted in higher cases of Child Abuse
2) Domestic Violence Deaths as Families are force to stay together without respite generally from going to work
3) Increased Suicide from the Stress of losing jobs
etc.
Count ALL the deaths... not just the Coronavirus related deaths. The lock down related deaths should be compared to the Coronavirus related deaths. If it gets close in comparison, then you have to wonder if the lock down was worth it.