Thoughts on college?

[Allan Foote]

As a young and eager investor I consider myself very blessed and fortunate to be where I am and have the people around me that I do. I currently live in San Antonio, but just finished my first year of College up in Utah. I have a mentor who has found tremendous success from flipping,renting and investing down here. My goal is to soak up as much information, from him and other sources, as possible before I start investing on my own. He has not only offered me a job to help me truly understand how things work in this field but has even offered to help finance my first investment when that time comes. This individual did not attend college because it didn’t really fit him and fortunately, like I mentioned, he has found a lot of success and wealth. Currently my plans are still to attend and finish up College, hopefully getting a degree in the field of real estate. I wish to make a full time living out of flipping and investing. The issue is I can’t help but wonder if college is really the “right” path. I have done a lot of thinking about the pros and the cons of both paths. The main pro of finishing College would be the coveted degree I could attain that would hopefully provide a safety net incase disaster struck, however, college is expensive and many will get a degree only to realize it isn’t doing them much good. I think the biggest Pros of not finishing college currently are the time and freedom I have (no obligations to family or spouse) along with the resources I have available, the biggest con is obviously the lack of a backup plan.

Sorry for the lengthy backstory but I am curious to hear from you guys about the paths you took and what you would recommend! Did you attend college? If so, were you happy that you did? If you didn’t, do you wish you would have? Thanks so much!

[Wiley Strahan]

@Allan Foote

From my perspective, going to college is not only an opportunity to learn but also make connections to both people who are like you and others who are not. A lot of college is also about growing up and learning how to do things on your own which I think is an invaluable skill. At the same time, paying for college is definitely a very large disincentive to attend. It is a lot of money without any guarantee of getting a job afterwards.

At the end of the day, I think college provides a great opportunity to learn and meet people who may one day become your business partner. Personally, I would say try to get as involved with college clubs, organizations, and societies as possible to really take advantage of the networking side of things. As far as the real estate interest goes, now is the time to seek out people well known in the industry as I guarantee you that they are much more willing to talk to a bright college student versus some guy off the street.

Also what is stopping you from pursuing real estate while you attend college - if you dont take advtange of the clubs and orgs, then you can put all of your free time towards real estate and maybe make your college tuition up in investments (highly difficult but possible).

I do have a BS and an MBA so I may be a little jaded...

[Don Gouge]

A degree in real estate is worthless. Fewer and fewer degrees have any value because they are so much more common. A specific degree like in accounting, chemistry or engineering or a gateway degree to a professional graduate program such as physical therapy has value. Better yet, go to trade school and become a plumber or welder.

[Allan Foote]

@Wiley Strahan

Thank you! Those are some really good insights!

Haha, coming from a large family of whom all have attended and completed college I definitely get that those who have gone through the process generally recommend it to others as well!

In terms of starting up in college, maybe I’m being a little too picky or just not being creative enough, but I’d really prefer not to hunker down in Utah. It’s a beautiful place but in terms of the community I’m not the biggest fan. But that’s a whole different and unrelated story 😂

I DO think however that your suggestion to get involved with clubs and different organizations offers a very valuable and priceless opportunity that I need to consider.

I am definitely not anti-college or anything of the sort , and have even considered the option of transferring to a college closer to home to help solve the issue above, which conveniently would also give me a place to stay where I wouldn’t have to pay rent.

Thank you again for your input as I weigh all my options here in this exciting time of life! 😁

[Allan Foote]

@Don Gouge

Hm that’s an interesting but insightful tip! My current major is Neuroscience since I thought I wanted to go to Med school, but that desire has changed since I have found the wonderful world of real estate. So basically, I haven’t committed to any Major yet and am thankful for your comment as I’m looking for other avenues!

[Aubrey H.]

@Allan Foote

While going to college, I did not think that was the path for me. Now I am glad I did even though I did not get a job in what I went for. Now that I have been out of college for almost 10 years I highly suggest and encourage people to go to college. I also say do ad much online/ self paced/ nights and weekends so you can still do what you want during the day to grow your real estate business. I had never heard of going to college for Real Estate until I read on BP last week. I would also suggest maybe getting a business or finance degree. You could learn some amazing things and when needing to do projects for class you might even get to use your own "business" as the subject.

[Allan Foote]

@Aubrey H.

Thank you Aubrey! I really like that idea of trying to keep days open to grow and work on real estate... it’s not like college students get any sleep anyway 🤣

[Damaso Bautista]

@Allan Foote

I encourage going to college and getting your degrees, but I look at it from a different perspective.  Being a minority growing up on the poor side of town, I was feed the idea that going to University and getting your degree was the best way to find yourself on the better side of town. For me it was the key to getting a great job and also moving up socially.  Being a minority there is always stigma that you are poor an uneducated.  That was one of my driving forces towards finishing my studies. For me it was all personal.

I have a career that doesn't require a college degree so having earning my AA, BA and MA were just goals that I set out for myself as a young person.

[Scott White]

I've worked in tech for more than 25 years and got a degree in a completely unrelated field (Advertising). Honestly, in my experience, career success is much more about what you've built, the connections you've made, and "soft skills" (empathy, listening, humility, follow-through, recovery from mistakes, etc.) than where you went to school. I really have no idea where most of my colleagues did college (except when they talk about football). 

Here in Austin, I know a good number of people with advanced degrees who in their early 30s are working at the juice bar or driving Uber, so "lots of college" doesn't always equal "dazzling success". I'm much more a proponent of learning by doing and continuous self-education (reading, podcasts, new types of projects, etc.).

I guess there's something to be said for completing the gesture you've started, but there's also the case to be made for hitting the 'pause' button and leaning into a vocation that seems to be calling to you. You've got lots of years ahead and you can always 'unpause' if you feel moved to do so later.

Ultimately, the decision is up to you, but my main advice would be to approach whatever you do with a spirit of genuine curiosity, humility, and openness. Say what you mean, mean what you say, and simply deliver on what you've said you would. There's ALWAYS something new to learn, and at the end of the day, you do what you do for and with people, so be especially mindful of your connections with others. Approaching life with a spirit of helping and building value generously really does come back to you in time.

[Seth Teel]

Two degrees and well over a $100,000 paid in tuition...what can I say.

College isn't for everyone.  I don't even think it was for me.  I wanted to be a carpenter.  But folks gave me an ultimatum: Go to school or GTFO the house.  So I went to college.  I was too immature to take it seriously and had no clue what the hell I wanted to do.  I drank and partied so much it took me 5.5 years to get my bachelor's degree.  I did work full-time for the Campus Police the last year and half to pay for my tuition.  And another 2 years to pay for my Master's degree.  BA in Criminal Justice & MA in Urban Affairs (urban planning/ public policy).  Even working for the University I ended up with around $40K in student loans.  

Was it worth it?

Some of the best times of my life were during my college years, but very little of it had to do with schooling.  What I did learn was how to grow up, discipline, dedication to hard work, & time management. Did I need to take 8 years of my life and spend $100K+ to do it, nope!

Would I do it again?  

Maybe. Here's why:  The student loan system is a lie. It sets students up for immediate failure in their adult lives.  We have this mindset of "you can go to the best school you can get into and we'll pay for it with student loans."  Reality is the school you go to really doesn't matter unless you're going into a few specific professions (Doctors, Lawyers, etc.)  If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have stayed in town, gone to a state school and come out with little-to-no student loans, wouldn't have wasted a ton of my folk's money, and if at any point I wanted to quit or failed out, the financial consequences would've been much less severe.

Alternatively, pursuing a trade may be more beneficial.  Both cost of tuition and time it takes to graduate are much better than college. Additionally, you graduate with a marketable skill that no one can take from you.  This skill can be used to make money.  Often degrees are much more theoretical, you have knowledge, but takes years to become professional that field. It takes even longer to make decent money.  

I spent almost 8 years in the "corporate world."  The highest salary I achieved was $55K/year.  When I quit, I had $10K to my name, and owned two duplexes.  Moved back to San Antonio, got my real estate licensed, tripled that salary within a year.  Was I able to do this because I went to college, no.  Did it help, Yes!  Yes, for all the reasons I mentioned above: discipline, dedication to hard work, & time management.  Can these traits be learned elsewhere, yes.  

Ultimately you need to do what's best for you.  There is no negative to having a degree, especially if you can do it without student loans.  Knowing what I know now, I would gone to trade school and got into real estate full-time about 10 years before I did.  You're starting young, the world is your oyster.

Good luck!

@Allan Foote

[Albert Fuentes]

Great Response 

@Seth Teel !

I highly agree with Seth on his opinion about college. It's a great way to build connections, and also join organizations that might help with real estate. My downside was that I was a kinesiology major and the only reason why I went to college was because my parents said "the only way to be successful is to go to college" So if you can pay to go to college without putting yourself in debt, I highly recommend it. If not, look for some grants and scholarships. Not worth it in my opinion to put yourself in debt for a degree you won't use in the future. 

[Chris Koch]

@Allan Foote... you have gotten some really good feedback so far, but I will add my $.02. First off, while you may be excited about real estate right now, if you ever fall out of love with it... what is your fall back plan? This is where college can help. Having a solid degree can be a safety net for you should you ever need it. Now that said, don't study something like 16th century French poetry and expect to have that safety net. You need to focus on STEM areas for the safety net to actually provide you any real support. Second, I agree that in today's market, the undergrad really isn't very important unless you are going to one of the twenty "top ten schools" (just think about it for a minute). If you get a degree from MIT, Stanford, CalTech, Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Brown, Yale, etc. you are golden. Pretty much anything else (and yes this includes so called prestigious "State Schools" such as Michigan, Texas, Virginia, UCLA, etc.) and it more depends on what you studied and where you did your grad school work at. Me, I went to small private undergrad, but aimed high with grad school at MIT (hence why they are first on the list above... duh!). This worked out for me because I wanted a career and to do real estate as a side project and build up my holdings until I decide to retire and transition into it full time. Only you can decide your correct path, but always keep in mind that you have a LOT of years ahead of you. What is your passion today... may not always be. Sometimes it is good to be prepared for change... even if you don't foresee it coming.

[Caleb Heimsoth]

@Allan Foote I went to college and am now attending grad school (part time), so I definitely think it’s worthwhile. I studied engineering (I’ll end up with two degrees in that field).

I would never have invested if I never attended school.

I know people who have reached high levels of success while going to school and while not.

I can tell you statistically speaking your odds are much greater if you get a college degree in a decent paying field.

Study computer science, engineering, accounting, finance etc. I would not study real estate. It’s to niche of a field with that degree. If you want to work in real estate, but not do engineering or finance, study construction management. That’s my opinion anyways.

[Frank Wong]

I think the value and importance of a college degree are becoming less and less important. The value that it once held is not the same while the cost of attending has skyrocketed.   Very hard to get ahead in life graduating college with $100k in debt with a low paying job and sky-high living costs.  

If I had to attend college today, I probably would not.  I think in the future there will more trade schools and job-specific education that students will rather attend. 

If I was going into tech I would not go to a University spend 4yrs learning computer science that won't even be applicable to today's work environment. Graduate and be in debt and 4yrs behind or I can go to a coding school for a 1/4 of the cost and have a job lined up in 12-16 weeks when I am done.  Same could be said for RE profession and many others.  I am not saying quit school, all I am giving is my perspective on what I think of it today. 

[Joe Splitrock]

When people say, "more and more people have degrees so they have less value", that is nonsense. More and more people have high school diplomas too, but nobody would tell you to drop out of high school. The fact that more people have degrees and even advanced degrees is exactly why they it is more important.

My fortune 200 company will not even consider an applicant without a college degree, even for a simple job like customer support in a call center. They hire assemblers in the plant without a degree, but if you want to become a shift supervisor, you need a college degree.

No doubt real estate is great right now, but it is a cyclical business. It is also a business ripe for disruption. By that I mean technology disruption or corporate disruption. Corporate disruption happens when an industry is overrun by large businesses. The degree puts you in a position where you have a little more to offer than the next person, which is a good thing.

Even if you chose to go the route of an entrepreneur, the skills you learn in college will help prepare you to run a business. Half the entrepreneurs out there lack basic understanding of operations, accounting and marketing, which hurts their business. The other aspect of college is networking. You make connections which help spring board your business.

Anyone entering college today can expect to live well into their 80's or 90's, so is four years a big deal in the grand scheme of things? Most importantly, life is about experiences and enjoyment. Anyone who has gone to college has gained a life time of memories, which is worth the price of admission by itself.

[Rich Weese]

  @Allan Foote

I don't think you need a college degree to be successful. If you have all the skills to obtain a college degree, those same skills will probably allow you to be successful in whatever field you choose without becoming mired in debt! I was told I needed to go to college and earn a degree also decades ago and actually went to A university in Utah. 

My story is easy to find here on bigger pockets, but I dropped out to go into real estate and have never looked back. I am not a big proponent of needing a college degree or higher. I always agreed to help any of my six kids get a degree or help them with starting or buying an existing business. I have one that earned a degree in nutrition and now manages a hospital food service program in Lodi California. My other five children chose different directions and four of the five are in real estate or businesses that depend on real estate. I would consider them successful.

I take offense at one of the comments in your original post. You stated that your potential mentor  "found" tremendous success in flipping etc. You don't find something like that, you earn it through hard work and experience.

At my age, I am able to look back and see many examples of young people that earned degrees that became useless or useless to them in the career they followed. I agree there are social skills that you learn by being around students in school but you can learn those same skills being in groups, clubs or organizations outside of school. In my early career in real estate I attended a lot of real estate information and exchange groups. I believe I learned an adequate amount of information there, probably more than I would have learned if I had finished college.

I still own a lot of real estate and am not sorry for my decision in choosing that career and not international law. Good luck on what ever you decide to do.

[Rich Weese]

@Joe Splitrock

I would never say college degrees are less valuable because more and more people have them. I would argue that the value you are receiving with your degree may depend on which degree you are obtaining. It is too easy at this period of time to earn a degree in a field that may have completely changed by the time you earn the degree or is no longer as valuable as when you started your education in that field.

I agree that someone with a college degree has a better chance at getting a job with your fortune 200 company. I have always felt that college does a very good job of teaching someone the skills they need to go to work for someone else.

I think we have been in a previous thread taking the same viewpoints that we are taking in this one. We are both speaking from a position of experience that generated the beliefs that we have now. I'm sure I would have been successful in a career based on international law if I had stuck with it. It would be impossible to determine whether that would have given me a more successful result since the definition of success varies from person to person.

I'm less a fan of college today than I was 40 years ago due to the cost and the number of degree holders that were not able to enter the field they had so diligently pursued for one reason or another. I realize that real estate may be cyclical but so are job opportunities at companies when the economy is on the downtrend. We have both seen that problem also with companies downsizing or disappearing.

I think it is great for Alan to receive different viewpoints and make his own decision. There are a lot of additional things he mentioned that I think are important to his decision. He is still young, single, with his entire life ahead of him. That is enough time to try a field like real estate and possibly find success. I was one that did exactly that and my history is on bigger pockets in different threads from years ago.

Good luck Allan.

[Joe Splitrock]

Originally posted by @Rich Weese:

@Joe Splitrock

I would never say college degrees are less valuable because more and more people have them. I would argue that the value you are receiving with your degree may depend on which degree you are obtaining. It is too easy at this period of time to earn a degree in a field that may have completely changed by the time you earn the degree or is no longer as valuable as when you started your education in that field.

I agree that someone with a college degree has a better chance at getting a job with your fortune 200 company. I have always felt that college does a very good job of teaching someone the skills they need to go to work for someone else.

I think we have been in a previous thread taking the same viewpoints that we are taking in this one. We are both speaking from a position of experience that generated the beliefs that we have now. I'm sure I would have been successful in a career based on international law if I had stuck with it. It would be impossible to determine whether that would have given me a more successful result since the definition of success varies from person to person.

I'm less a fan of college today than I was 40 years ago due to the cost and the number of degree holders that were not able to enter the field they had so diligently pursued for one reason or another. I realize that real estate may be cyclical but so are job opportunities at companies when the economy is on the downtrend. We have both seen that problem also with companies downsizing or disappearing.

I think it is great for Alan to receive different viewpoints and make his own decision. There are a lot of additional things he mentioned that I think are important to his decision. He is still young, single, with his entire life ahead of him. That is enough time to try a field like real estate and possibly find success. I was one that did exactly that and my history is on bigger pockets in different threads from years ago.

Good luck Allan.

How are you doing? I used to read a lot of posts from you, but have not seen you as much recently. I hope you are well. 

I completely agree that type of degree directly relates to earnings potential. Some degrees are very sought after and others are a dime a dozen. What I have observed is that the highest compensated professions are all sales related, real estate being one of them. You can also do well in car sales and insurance, none of which require a degree. Even pharmaceutical sales people make more than doctors. Any sales profession requires a special skill set in dealing with people and many people are just not cut out for it. There is a difference between, being a realtor and being a good realtor. 

A degree is merely a ticket of entry into companies and professions. If you plan to be self employed, no degree is needed in most cases (unless you are doctor, lawyer, etc.) However, if you plan to ever work for someone else, degrees will part of the discussion when they are hiring. All things equal if you have a degree and the other person doesn't, then you get the job.

My view of the future is that there is a lot of uncertainty on how technologies will affect all industries. I see a college degree as a credential that can only help a person. The only arguable down side of a degree is debt, but there are ways to reduce that. One option is live with family and go to a community college for the first two years. Avoiding private colleges is another way to substantially reduce cost. 

I am not saying without a degree you cannot succeed. I worked for a guy that didn't even graduate high school and he sold his business for $20M after 30 years of running it. He told me, "I only hire people with degrees and I look to hire people smarter than me." I later told him after selling the company for $20M that I thought that was a good indication he was the smartest one in the building. 

[Tanner Marsey]

If you’re going to go into RE for sure then I’d say save your time/money and skip college. If you want to do this on the side then go to college if you’re doing something where college is required/necessary.

[Mike Dymski]

There is almost no amount of money that I would trade for my time in college and the 25 years of friendships afterwards with my college friends.

And I did learn a lot too...language, math, reading, writing, speech, economics, marketing, accounting, psychology, business law, communication, etc...education that I use every day and continue to build on.

There are plenty of affordable colleges where you can learn this stuff efficiently.  Discussing the cost/benefit of expensive colleges is a different argument than discussing the cost/benefit of college in general.  People pay more for reasons other than the education.  That's not an education cost...that's an entertainment cost.

[Syed H.]

Go to college. Go to the best cheapest school you can unless you get into an Ivy. It is 1000% worth it. Any telling you the opposite is insane. Statiscally you will make substantially more with a college degree. Just pursue a degree that 1. will help you in your career. 2. Be something that can actually get you paid. 3. That you like. 

RE flipping sounds great now, but go talk to people who actually did this through a cycle or 3. Many lost their shirts. Flipping in the last 8-10 years was relatively easy. This website kinda of makes it sound like everyone is succeeding, which many are, but it's a confirmation bias. You are only seeing the success stories and not the failures. I know plenty of people who came into my various industries and now are doing something else. Also remember that for every succesful person that didnt go to college, there are 10 others that are making substantially less and aren't what many of us would consider a "success".

I have a BS & MS. BS from a city school. MS from a prestigious private school. If my businesses failed tomorrow, I know I could go get paid $150-175k+ base salary pretty easily. 

[Syed H.]

Originally posted by @Don Gouge:

A degree in real estate is worthless. Fewer and fewer degrees have any value because they are so much more common. A specific degree like in accounting, chemistry or engineering or a gateway degree to a professional graduate program such as physical therapy has value. Better yet, go to trade school and become a plumber or welder.

 I have a Masters in RE. I can get a job tomorrow with a total comp of $200k+. If that's worthless idk what to tell you. 

[Caleb Heimsoth]

@Allan Foote lots of good advice here. Also consider some fields require bachelors or masters degrees. My field (engineering) requires a bachelors. I could not get any job I applied for without it.

Likewise my girlfriends field requires a masters. She can’t get a job in her field without it. So keep that in mind as well.

[Matt M.]

I am the poster child for the school of hard knocks. Chef turned contractor, not a day of college, no student loans, a few houses, and I’m doing just fine. Not going to college isn’t one thing I would have done differently in my life.

[Dave Foster]

@Allan Foote read between the zen lines here - A college degree is worthless.  The right college degree is priceless!

If you love it and want to study it then do it. 

Problem numero uno is that too many people are going to college just because they think the diploma is the value and they don't have a particular desire for a path of learning to grow.

Problem B is that too many people go into debt to get a college degree when other alternatives are present.  I can count on one hand (after the tragic kitchen knife accident) the number of situations where going into debt so you can get a college degree is advisable.  As a matter of fact I read tons of posts right here from folks who are really desiring to grow as real estate investors yet are saddled with lack of financing options because of student debt.  

But I'm not sure why this whole string became a go/no go proposition.  Your opportunity with your mentor sounds incredible.  Your desire to learn pursue college studies commendable as well.  As well as your angst at having to stay put where you are.  So why not combine all three:  Go to work with your mentor, pursue college online or wherever you find yourself when you figure out what it is you want to study and where you want to live.    

[Tanner Marsey]

@Syed H.

Did you just give yourself a 25k raise between posts...?

There are RE agents out there making 200k + a year right now with 1,000 dollars invested and a few weeks of online schooling. The amount of money you make in 90% of fields does not correlate to the degree you have.

The fortune 200 company mentioned.... probably missing out on very qualified, experienced candidates that will go work elsewhere. In the years to come they will realize this and change their requirements.

The market becomes more and more entrepreneurial every day. Your low level bachelor degrees will become meaningless.... just like your HS diploma. Doctors, lawyers, dentists and other career fields that REQUIRE a large degree of higher education will still go to college. People are opening their eyes to the fact that the time and money invested doesn’t warrant the benefits.