@William C. Omg as if hubzu is not complicated enougth... Just wait, it will reappear on their website. Contact them directly about violations. I am surprised selling agent is involved, they usually have one that lists hundred of properties (one for entire state).
Not sure what you mean. I involved the selling agent. Shes seems to be on my side here, and she is also the listing agent for about 10 states. So believe you me I was surprised as anyone when she immediately responded to my first email to her on a Friday afternoon, and then again on Monday morning to notify me how to proceed and that she was cancelling the contract.
I understand it's along read, and I understand wanting to skim through and get the cliff notes. But I have been live updating the story as the story has unfolded. I appreciate the input. I just don't see the need to repeat myself every time someone reads the OP, jumps to the bottom and leaves their 2 cents.
I appreciate you taking the time to read the thread. Towards the end I think it's mostly me just repeating myself to those who make comments that have no context because the situation has already changed since OP. Vested interest is exactly that, vested. Meaning you have the right to own the asset.....in the future. The debate will go on forever in my opinion. My issue with this practice is that its lose, lose for the seller, and win win for the wholesaler. Buyer ties up property with agreement of sale and no intent on closing unless they find an end buyer. If they find an end buyer, the seller gets to sell their house, but for far less than what they could have if they had worked with an honest agent or investor. If they don't find and end buyer, the deal falls apart and now seller is stuck with the house and all that time was wasted. Don't get me wrong, I UNDERSTAND ALL DEALS ARE DIFFERENT. I know people will want to jump in and give their example. My point is, that's how the game is taught. Wholesalers, this day and age bring zero value to sellers, the may have in the past, but now they are just the lucky one to get to the seller first and secure the property.
Here a fact I have never heard mentioned before, and pretty much sums up why wholesaling will cease to exist in 5-10 years. Heck, even agents might be gone by then too. The internet has revolutionized the industry, along with many others. Wholesaling made sense 20 years ago when information moved much slower, and its true that they might have 5 or 6 investors standing by to buy up a property. With the internet, a seller could literally take 5 minutes to sign up for Zillow, list their home for $1. Watch all the sharks, good and bad and ugly come running to get a deal. Give it 30 days and review all the offers, and let the market will dictate the price, and they will get top dollar. The first time I ever heard of wholesaling my first question was, why don't they just list the thing on the MLS themselves and see what they can get?? They had no real good answer for me. I get it, some people THINK they cant sell on the MLS, and some people need cash now. Truth is all homes sell on the MLS, and cash offers come in ever day on those homes as well.
So there it is. The internet will be the end of wholesaler as they have existed in the past. And this is just one guys opinion on the whole thing. Call me wrong all you want. Its my thread and this is my opinion.
With all the said in regards to wholesaling on a Macro level. On a micro level, and the deal i'm involved in. It was just lies and misrepresentation from the start. And the seller explicitly prohibits the home to be remarketed, and prohibits the agreement to be assigned or even attempting to assign it, and the seller prohibits the buyer to give access to others prior to actually owning it. So I get it, some deals make sense to be wholesaled, but this is one of them. Let me also be clear that if the agent/buyer/liar had just SIMPLY been honest from the start with us, we would have been more than willing to come to an agreement on a price way more than they were under contract for. So maybe if nothing else that will be a lesson for some of you out there and you' think twice being being a scum bag. She made it very clear very fast she would be impossible to work with because nothing she said or wrote on the listing was truthful. That's when I realized I'd have to go straight to the source.
@William C. - a number of comments (I've read the entire thread) are accurate. I have 2 comments:
1. While you're passionate about helping your Buyer, I hope that you are looking at the bigger picture and trying to root out bad agents. The more we step up, the less they will do what they do. As an FYI, I am fine with wholesalers and believe that they are more of an asset to the investing community than a detriment. And if they can make money, more power to them. I also believe in following the rules set out for us and it's clear there's shadiness going on.
2. Find your way into Hubzu and complain that you sense something unethical and that you have a buyer ready to offer significantly more than they're getting. Here's how I see it: if it's a legit $150k and the wholesaler is able to make more off someone else, good for them. On the other hand, if the $150k is based on a valuation provided by the same agent, then it's cooked. Hubzu will know who they hired. I wouldn't rely on the agent to get the transaction halted unless you know with certainty she's not involved. Good luck!
Iv said multiple times I would love to meet a few honest legit wholesalers in my market. I would love more deal flow. I've been looking for 10 years. It's weird I cant seem to find one.
I think your lost regarding who is representing who in this transaction. I have already mentioned that the REAL listing agent who is working for the bank has instructed me to submit a backup offer, and that she will be cancelling the contract with the scammers, and moving to backup offers, or relisting. It's handled. Nothing more to be done on my end.
And you lost me regarding the valuations. The property was originally listed at $150k, legitimately, by the actual listing agent. It was relisted 4 days later by a fake listing agent, acting as if she owned it with an investment group. This was proven to be a lie through a quick title search. The REAL listing agent is aware, and has apologized, and is handling it on her end.
-If you buyer is still ready to pay $30k more and wants the property, why not make the offer to the agent and just “play the game”? I get the principle of it but at the end of the day standing on principle may not get the property
And perpetuate the scam? How does that help us clean up the industry of the shady?
That might be what we are forced to do if they are not able to cancel the contract. She lied about ownership, so how am I supposed to trust anything she says from this point on, especially about "having other offers". I understand agents walk a fine line when negotiating a deal for their sellers and trying to get top dollar. But Iv never lied about having an offer I did not actually have in hand. We are always "expecting other offers" though. The reason I'm fairly certain they don't have any other offers because It only took me 5 minutes on the MLS to sniff out the scam. The only reason I bit and indicated we were interested in an submitting an offer was because we noticed the listing while out and about. I contacted the centralized showing system, they had no record of instructions ( because she knew this would set off red flags, and had notes in the MLS to contact her directly). We walked the property and I contacted her on the way home about a possible offer. She ignored me for a good 6 hours after giving me the LB combo in a matter of minutes. When she finally responded I continued down the offer path to see what information she would give up. Quite frankly I was prepared to work with her and try to secure it for my buyer, even though they were clearly wholesalng it. I gave her an opportunity to come clean about not being the owner when I asked about the other listing Pending, she doubled down and claimed ownership, and that they were flipping the property. That's when it became clear I needed to go a different route and try to get to the seller directly. As the truth unfolded, and as she continued to lie and deceive, it became clear I wanted nothing to do with working with her in a real estate transaction. So, again, if any other buyers were interested, I have to hope they too would have realized something was amiss. I could be wrong, maybe they were naive and just went ahead with an offer anyway. I'm praying the real agent is able to cancel, and we simply cut out the scammers and work with the seller directly. Unfortunately no updates from the real agent as of today.
Man, you need to get a vision board setup next to your desk. You and your clients are going to leave sooo many opportunities on the table with this righteousness attitude.
To all of these claims about how the other party is wrong, fraudulent, unethical, etc etc - who the hell cares? Your goal should be to get your client the property at a price acceptable to them, even if that means slogging through the muck and mud of the real estate world. The utopia you want where everyone is honest and ethical doesn't exist, and won't, no matter how hard you fight. Spend your time working within the system vs. trying to fight it.
Now, if you want to file a complaint after the transaction closes, go right ahead, that might be the right thing to do. But again, the goal here should be to make the sale for your client, not prove how right you are and how wrong the other party is. I've reported plenty of wholesalers to the state board and plenty of non-compliant folks to the MLS, but never before my client has a chance to close on a deal.
You aren't going to get the contract between 2 other parties cancelled by being a tattle-tale and assuming whats going on isn't acceptable to both of the contract's parties. Maybe the bank doesn't care how the deal gets assigned as long as it gets closed. Even if their contract states otherwise, that's between them, and is none of your business. And even if you do get it cancelled, who's to say another party won't come in offer more and still beat you out? Will you still say "no fair!" and find a way to derail that person's deal?
OP is more worried about the case he’s building that will probably lead nowhere than getting deals done and making $$$$
Still trolling hard, huh? Seems like you have nothing better to do then drop in every one in a while with a useless post. I'm not worried about anything actually. The case was solved. The contract is done, and may the highest bidder win. Your free to turn off notifications for this thread,
-If you buyer is still ready to pay $30k more and wants the property, why not make the offer to the agent and just “play the game”? I get the principle of it but at the end of the day standing on principle may not get the property
And perpetuate the scam? How does that help us clean up the industry of the shady?
That might be what we are forced to do if they are not able to cancel the contract. She lied about ownership, so how am I supposed to trust anything she says from this point on, especially about "having other offers". I understand agents walk a fine line when negotiating a deal for their sellers and trying to get top dollar. But Iv never lied about having an offer I did not actually have in hand. We are always "expecting other offers" though. The reason I'm fairly certain they don't have any other offers because It only took me 5 minutes on the MLS to sniff out the scam. The only reason I bit and indicated we were interested in an submitting an offer was because we noticed the listing while out and about. I contacted the centralized showing system, they had no record of instructions ( because she knew this would set off red flags, and had notes in the MLS to contact her directly). We walked the property and I contacted her on the way home about a possible offer. She ignored me for a good 6 hours after giving me the LB combo in a matter of minutes. When she finally responded I continued down the offer path to see what information she would give up. Quite frankly I was prepared to work with her and try to secure it for my buyer, even though they were clearly wholesalng it. I gave her an opportunity to come clean about not being the owner when I asked about the other listing Pending, she doubled down and claimed ownership, and that they were flipping the property. That's when it became clear I needed to go a different route and try to get to the seller directly. As the truth unfolded, and as she continued to lie and deceive, it became clear I wanted nothing to do with working with her in a real estate transaction. So, again, if any other buyers were interested, I have to hope they too would have realized something was amiss. I could be wrong, maybe they were naive and just went ahead with an offer anyway. I'm praying the real agent is able to cancel, and we simply cut out the scammers and work with the seller directly. Unfortunately no updates from the real agent as of today.
Man, you need to get a vision board setup next to your desk. You and your clients are going to leave sooo many opportunities on the table with this righteousness attitude.
To all of these claims about how the other party is wrong, fraudulent, unethical, etc etc - who the hell cares? Your goal should be to get your client the property at a price acceptable to them, even if that means slogging through the muck and mud of the real estate world. The utopia you want where everyone is honest and ethical doesn't exist, and won't, no matter how hard you fight. Spend your time working within the system vs. trying to fight it.
Now, if you want to file a complaint after the transaction closes, go right ahead, that might be the right thing to do. But again, the goal here should be to make the sale for your client, not prove how right you are and how wrong the other party is. I've reported plenty of wholesalers to the state board and plenty of non-compliant folks to the MLS, but never before my client has a chance to close on a deal.
You aren't going to get the contract between 2 other parties cancelled by being a tattle-tale and assuming whats going on isn't acceptable to both of the contract's parties. Maybe the bank doesn't care how the deal gets assigned as long as it gets closed. Even if their contract states otherwise, that's between them, and is none of your business. And even if you do get it cancelled, who's to say another party won't come in offer more and still beat you out? Will you still say "no fair!" and find a way to derail that person's deal?
I appreciate your input, next time it would be nice if you would bring some value to the thread. First, read the entire thread, and then leave your input. Then you'll realize how stupid your entire post sounds. Your way off, and obviously read OP and couldn't wait to scroll to the bottom to add your 2 cents. The contract is being cancelled. So theres that. Agents can't lie about owning a home, bottom line. The seller doesn't allow for the home to be remarked. To say WHO CARES? tells me you are a scum bag like these scammers trying to pull a fast one. Actually honest and ethical does exist. This is an all time low, and I've been doing it 10 years. You must be referring to your own actions, because I'v never had an issue before this with agents, owners, or buyers being unethical. Oh, and by the way. Iv already addressed what happens when the contract is cancelled. They will be going to backup offers. If we lose, so be it. As long as scam artists dont get it. You really showed what a stand up guy you are though, I'll remember who to avoid in Chi town. That rant has made us all dumber, you are awarded no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
-If you buyer is still ready to pay $30k more and wants the property, why not make the offer to the agent and just “play the game”? I get the principle of it but at the end of the day standing on principle may not get the property
And perpetuate the scam? How does that help us clean up the industry of the shady?
That might be what we are forced to do if they are not able to cancel the contract. She lied about ownership, so how am I supposed to trust anything she says from this point on, especially about "having other offers". I understand agents walk a fine line when negotiating a deal for their sellers and trying to get top dollar. But Iv never lied about having an offer I did not actually have in hand. We are always "expecting other offers" though. The reason I'm fairly certain they don't have any other offers because It only took me 5 minutes on the MLS to sniff out the scam. The only reason I bit and indicated we were interested in an submitting an offer was because we noticed the listing while out and about. I contacted the centralized showing system, they had no record of instructions ( because she knew this would set off red flags, and had notes in the MLS to contact her directly). We walked the property and I contacted her on the way home about a possible offer. She ignored me for a good 6 hours after giving me the LB combo in a matter of minutes. When she finally responded I continued down the offer path to see what information she would give up. Quite frankly I was prepared to work with her and try to secure it for my buyer, even though they were clearly wholesalng it. I gave her an opportunity to come clean about not being the owner when I asked about the other listing Pending, she doubled down and claimed ownership, and that they were flipping the property. That's when it became clear I needed to go a different route and try to get to the seller directly. As the truth unfolded, and as she continued to lie and deceive, it became clear I wanted nothing to do with working with her in a real estate transaction. So, again, if any other buyers were interested, I have to hope they too would have realized something was amiss. I could be wrong, maybe they were naive and just went ahead with an offer anyway. I'm praying the real agent is able to cancel, and we simply cut out the scammers and work with the seller directly. Unfortunately no updates from the real agent as of today.
I'll preface this post by saying again, the agent should be fired and possibly lose their license for listing the property on the MLS and representing it as being owned by themselves or their investment group.
With that said, I think the OP is way off on a couple of points he is trying to make. First, the wholesaler saw an opportunity with an underpriced asset and jumped on it. If your buyer saw it at the same price as the wholesaler, would they have emailed the listing agent and insisted on paying $75k more because that's what it was worth to them? The wholesaler did a lot wrong here, but contracting the property at the price they did wasn't one of them. They went wrong when they tried to represent themselves as the CURRENT owner. Had they just disclosed they have it under contract and are wholesaling it, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal for most logical investors.
Second, the argument that wholesaling is wrong because they aren't adding any value to the property and stealing equity seems flawed to me. When I make improvements on a property that I buy, I am adding value for myself, not the former owner. If MY profit drops a bit because I paid the wholesaler a fee then that hurts my bottom line, not the former owner. Here is a real life example of my point:
Seller approaches me with a property they want to sell and are asking $X. I run my comps, take a look at the property and decide it's a good deal so I agree to the price.
Scenario 1- I spend $50k and do a rehab, list the property and make a nice profit
Scenario 2- I spend $30k to make the property a rental, find great tenants and cash flow from day 1
Scenario 3- I close on the property, list it on the MLS as-is, make a profit and move to the next deal
Scenario 4- I wholesale the deal to a cash buyer, make a small profit and keep looking for deals
Each scenario is different and each has a different exit strategy, but seller is still receiving $X for each and every outcome. So saying by wholesaling deals you're stealing equity from a seller because you aren't adding any value to the property doesn't hold up for me. You only add value for yourself, it doesn't benefit the seller in any way whatsoever.
Third, the OP failed his buyer big time as an agent. You had a buyer with a lot of interest on the property, all you had to do was keep an eye on it and he would've not only got the property but he would've got a great deal on it. You openly said that the deal had been on the market for a while and you missed it; that's your job! I am not sure about your MLS, but on mine it takes me about two minutes to setup property alerts so the second something hits the MLS I get notified. If you really wanted to go above and beyond you could've checked county records weekly, found out when the bank took the property back, cross searched the specific bank with other properties and found the handful of agents they use to list their properties, reached out to each one and said "hey, if you get this asset can you call me so we can put in a very strong cash offer the day it gets listed?". But you didn't do any of this, you let the deal go to someone else and now you're pissed. You have every right to be upset at the wholesaler but man, I would be super disappointed with myself if I was you. I would use this situation as a way to improve yourself as an agent.
I agree with you 100%. I apologize if I had made it seem as though they have no right to purchase a home at one price, and sell at another. This is perfectly legal, and I d be the first to congratulate them, had they done this. My ONLY issue is the lying and misrepresentation as being the rightful owner. That's where they went wrong, and big time. The original purchase price, and eventual sales price is irrelevant, and I did not mean to imply they must do work, or improve a property in order to sell it for more. I was just simply giving the numbers as reference. I'll be the first to admit when I have made a mistake. Which Iv done plenty in this thread, either by misunderstand someones point of view, or simply speaking out of emotion, and referancing instances I feel to be "wrong" whether legal or not. Iv admitted now possibly 3 times, they would have been totally above board, and legal had they just closed on the property, and then resold. Iv also admitted 3 times now that we dropped the ball and missed the original listing, there is no question about that. I do not have an issue with wholesaling in the honest form, where ALL parties are well informed as to who owns what. I just find that in every case I have ever encountered, either seller is way under informed, or end buyer is way under informed. Hope this clears things up. Thanks for you input, glad we were both each able to clarify.
I see this all the time. If all parties are fully aware of the situation and it's transparent, I don't see the harm.
And when one of the parties is completely lying, and making misrepresentations?
Have you confirmed this
Umm yes.. "You actually OWN the property Mrs Seller?" "Yes" ....simple title search revealed otherwise. That there is fraud my friend. And text messages are in writing, so It's not even as though I'm referring to something said over the phone.
@William C. Omg as if hubzu is not complicated enougth... Just wait, it will reappear on their website. Contact them directly about violations. I am surprised selling agent is involved, they usually have one that lists hundred of properties (one for entire state).
Not sure what you mean. I involved the selling agent. Shes seems to be on my side here, and she is also the listing agent for about 10 states. So believe you me I was surprised as anyone when she immediately responded to my first email to her on a Friday afternoon, and then again on Monday morning to notify me how to proceed and that she was cancelling the contract.
I understand it's along read, and I understand wanting to skim through and get the cliff notes. But I have been live updating the story as the story has unfolded. I appreciate the input. I just don't see the need to repeat myself every time someone reads the OP, jumps to the bottom and leaves their 2 cents.
I see this all the time. If all parties are fully aware of the situation and it's transparent, I don't see the harm.
And when one of the parties is completely lying, and making misrepresentations?
In all the time you have spent posting in this thread and worrying about solving a CSI case - you could have found and went directly to the the seller and negotiated the deal for your client.
LOL. Too long didnt read?
I'm on BP to communicate with other like minded individuals. Truth is I spent a ton of time on here pleading my case, giving my opinions, and laying out the facts, and debating right and wrong. My time spent on BP is not ROI positive, I understand that. I also understand this problem wont be solved on BP either. But I would appreciate it if you at least take a minute or two and read some of the thread before putting in your 2 cents. I'm pretty sure I made it clear in OP that the seller is a bank. I appreciate your input nonetheless, no matter how invaluable it is to the discussion.
Sorry must’ve got lost in the novel
If someone else can get a contract on a bank owned property why can’t you?
Find a different thread to troll. Thanks