You miss the point Tim on paper slavery was abolished as you say in 40 years slavery was abolished.
I'll agree and say they took slavery off the books and made it illegal on paper. Did that stop the unfair practices. What about minorities being arrested because counties needed labor so they would just pick people up off the streets.
it wasn't until the 1970's that minorities could actually compete for a job, get fair housing, etc....
so if you are correct in what you say about the banning of slavery in 1777 why did it take almost 200 years for a minority to compete for a job. . . how can you pull yourself up by the bootstraps if there's nothing to hold on to?
Mike my argument wasn't based on whether the native american's were constantly at war. They were similar to the africans in the sense that there were groups who were very aggressive such as the maya and the aztecs such as the well documented cases of ritualistic sacrifice of women, children, and captured enemy warriors. That was their culture but there were also peaceful people in america before the americans came and on the continent of africa there were tribes doing similar things.
Also to say that africans were living in mud huts, i think that's a gross representation off the facts, it comes off as a slight against african culture. there was more to africa than mud huts but i'm sure you weren't referring to the entire african civilization so i'll let that be.
The thing that is a fact though is when the spanish, europeans, and portuguese came over their diseases devastated the local population who they came in contact with. That and when they were first tried to be used as slaves in large numbers often escaped because they knew the land better or simply died from being worked too hard. these are facts that are documented in writing and history books.
Like i said i know america isn't perfect but its a lot better than most of what's out there but that doesn't take away from the history of this country. So many people have grievances with this countries history its almost as if were supposed to just forget all that happened, i dont want people to constantly blame "the man" i don't like that mentality at all.
Its not about the country owing you anything its about giving everyone a equal playing field and the creme will rise to the top, thats the way i see the world. I have no animosity towards the people at the top, am i jealous? yes i want what they have but if they can get it so can i and that's my motto. People who blame others for their misfortunes in my opinion never amount to much but in life those people will be there, like i said the creme rises to the top, if everyone was a donald trump, or a jay z, a michael jackson, tiger woods, who ever you want to look up to, then that would be average.
what i am saying though is looking at the situation of different people in your own community would you say that its fair? does every child have access to the same calibur of education, transportation; does their family have the means to provide those things? If they aren't equal then i ask you to ask the question why is it because they don't work hard enough...?
does a mother working 40 hours a week and still cant afford to pay for a place to stay and send her kids to school on a full stomach to better themselves equate to her being lazy?
or what about a ceo of a corporation that makes 60 million per year for finding a way to get people to take their hard earned money and invest in what they think is a secure investment to loose it all and the ceo still maintan his lifestyle... did he work harder than the mother who works serving the community?
Now i do understand that investments come with risks but can you say what recently happened to our country wasn't cause by just reckless behavior and in the end who gets left with the bag of coal?
Tim read the response i posted to jawsette but lets just do a bried overview, the products that supported america when it was brand new tobacco, rice, indigo, sugar, then later cotton in the south who worked the fields to grow those crops.
I address most if not all what you said in that response. I am not here to piss and moan about the system or the man, I am new to commercial real estate investing not real estate investing. I am creating my own wealth through the laws and systems set up by the government, i don't take anything thats in this thread personally because openly sharing ideas doesn't hurt my feelings.
doing a quick search for "Waltham Act of 1723" the only article i find was written by a "Michael A. Hoffman" who has been discredited by "Robert Jan van Pelt" who had an actual career but back to the point at hand if you have a credible link to an official document that would go far. we'll talk a little more about this later.
you even said that after the civil rights era then "things go more equal" why did it take so long after the abolishment of slavery to get more equal.
you say ingenuity and individual freedoms allowed america to prosper right what about the individuals who were being used in servitude, what about their individual freedoms?
with that state of mind of total freedom and ingenuity why are there laws against selling drugs, robbing banks, all the vices that through laws are deemed illegal doesn't everyone have the right to their individual freedoms?
Back to Mr. Hoffman and the white slaves being here first i dont doubt that at all, they were indentured servants england went through its slave holding phase and it can be said that it didn't prove as economical because they had history of lords and serf's that system was overthrown by the merchant class.
I think you have to step back for a second and take a look at who has controlled the litigation powers of this country from the start, why was it such a big deal when Mrs. sotomayor was being nominated to the supreme court.
I still stand by my statement that america's success. Take a look at recent history say the last 50 years, what has america done to stay competitive in the world? We lower trade barriers and americans complain about losing jobs, what does america build anymore? What do we export? We export the idea of america to the world, we have the greatest fighting force in the world yet that couldn't stop 3,000 plus people from dying when two planes crashed into the towers.
any country that doesn't manufacture cannot survive, what do we offer to the world? take a look at stats college graduates who are educated in america are going to korea, japan, china for work.....!! I often hear people say as long as they're people are lining up to come to america we will be fine.... On really so when the educated people leave and start lives in new countries how is that good for america?
like i said before history is history its written you can go read it and understand for yourself, that's gone we can't change what has happened and i'm not even upset about the past, i think understanding the past is a good step for the future. I notice that you often cite sources which is good that means you read something, often times people argue based on things they hear and they argue that like its their baby. if you want to cite sources thats great it give me something to read and i love to learn and my views change if the facts are their to support them.
I applaud you though because even though we don't agree on a few things i appreciate that your not name calling and what not, i can live with that and i'm sure we can agree on something.... were both real estate investors so were not looking for handouts were taking our piece.
Will you agree that african americans were the only group of people where the majority of them were brought here against their will?
also today with the abundance of information and low cost transportation most people never leave their own state, now imagine to the time i was referring to; when the slaves were offered the chance to go home, what were there options? swim across the oceans or better yet put back on ships to be sent back where they came from? the government tried that it's called Liberia its off the south west coast of africa it failed.
you say the slaves were given food, clothing, shelter, and medical attention.... so they didn't have those things in africa where they belonged? while some blame can be put on the african's themselves because it was through their constant warring that lead to so many slaves being sold that doesn't take away from the point. would you give up all you have in america to go work for food, clothing, and shelter in another country or better yet, take prisoners in jail and see if they'd be happy with those terms.
as for the fact that there were asians, native americans and other people who were being used as slaves in america but after they saw what the diseases they brought from spain, europe, and portugal did to the native population the Spanish priest de Las Casas felt sorry for the native american populations and actually advocated for them to be released from slavery. There was also the fact that the natives knew the land better than the foreigners and would constantly escape but de las casas advocated to free the native americans which happened and they decided to replace them with african americans.
this move makes little sense to me since he saw the suffering of one group of people and decides to replace them with another but that's besides the point.
You are also correct about the different groups of people who have come to america and made it their home, the irish, polish, germans, jews, you name it they've come but again they came of their own free will, whether it be to flee the potato famine in the mid 1700's or the jews during the world war they choose to come here.
the fact that you said you don't see any representation of the immigrants or the slaves in our constitution illustrates my point exactly that the people who benefited the most from the free labor (slavery) wouldn't even state so in their constitution because it goes against everything they wanted their new country to stand for. While they didn't use the words slavery in the document what does the 3/5th compromise say? that for every five slaves you get 3 people counted towards the census for the house of representatives or how about if someone held in servitude or labor who escapes slavery in one state shall not be set free in another state.
while they don't use the word because of their shame they still profited from it, the north as well as the south.
this isn't about me being told about these things by family members or friends, often times i find afrocentrism to be too contrite for my taste anyways, its not about getting a word and throwing it around its about understanding the issues and trying to relate to the positions the people were in during the time these things were going down.
as far as what to do about it? get educated about the history of our country and understand that no matter how hard you try you cannot sum up a person a situation a group of people anything in a word, i believe that people would rather fire off something out of their mouths to say i won and get brownie points with their friends rather than debate the subject.
I understand that america will not give the land back to native americans, that's just not gong to happen nor should it, i understand that when the slaves were "freed" they were talks about 40 acres and a mule i don't think that should have happened either but what i do think should have happened which so many people on this board proclaim Ad nauseam is that everyone should have been given a fair shot. no discriminator legislation, no threat of violence against a person or their families, no segregation but we all know that that wasn't the case. there were laws enacted to keep a select group of people down which we are still seeing the effects of today through employment, education, and wealth. so now after hundreds of years of laws that were unfair i hear the arguments that no one should have an unfair advantage.... really so what about the history of this country, what do you say to that? is your answer thats the way it is . . . . . . .
where do i think we go from here? i think people need to educate themselves, its so easy to believe what you've been taught but i guarantee that if you took a high school chemistry class in the mid 90's and you take a chemistry class today the information has changed and thats due to the fact that as time goes along we learn more, get better tools to reexamine what was once solid science and see things change. I advocate for people to get educated i don't like extremist on either side conservatives or liberals they're both the same to me extremist.
I don't quite understand the american ideal sometimes; now here i go. i'm starting this because it was request, i understand we all come from different places and look at the same situations differently but please no name calling.
There is so much intertwined here that its hard to unravel but lets take a look. The puritans came over because they didn't have representation in the old world, they took this land from people who were already living here sovereignly.
Then they build this nation on the backs of slaves; african americans are the only one's who were forced to come here *this is a fact* no slaves decided they wanted to work for free.
the prosperity provided by all this free labor along with all the immigration brought over great ideas to this country. Centuries of laws that were discriminator built up and unequal advantage for some while leaving others behind.
The prosperity americans have was propped up by the exploitation of millions of people, even to this day we exploit countries around the world for their resources.
I am a student of history and understand the winners write the books and its easy not to question when your on top but today so many americans feel its their right to rule supreme because they are americans. I don't think so, there has always be regulation and deregulations; look at the way the old coal mine owners would exploit the workers they had in the mines, the old oil barons, the tycoons who built the railroads, these people had children working for them, are those actions right or wrong? Thats for you to decide; what i want to point out is the fact that no matter who you elect they will collect your taxes, republicans or democrats it doesn't matter; its just what they want to spend the money on; and trust me both parties will spend your money.
If anyone on this board thinks that more laws similar to NAFA and other free trade agreements are not going to pass just check the bills in congress and see that they are sponsored by both democrats, republicans, independents, or whatever else they choose to call themselves.
If you take a look at what's being said on this thread it can be seen as very selfish and greedy; just keep your hands out of my pockets and i'll take care of my community. Let me pose this question, how many people on here give back to their communities, have you donated some sweat equity, give some money to a charity, even said a kind word to a homeless guy/ gal on the street.
My personal opinion is that these political parties are set up to keep people under control and thats it.... everyone was so happy and filled with hope for obama now he's going to be the death of our america; there is no our america its is and always will be changing; john f. kennedy faced hell to get elected because he was catholic and it was though he was going to be taking orders from the pope, now he's looked back on with rose tinted glasses.
People fight so hard against education and understanding the world outside of their little box; i've seen programs where people would shout burn the books but leave our bible alone; people still thinks the sun revolves around the earth, or don't know where the sun goes at night. . . its not about democrats or republicans i'm sure most of you guys know that those parties basically flipped during the civil rights era; i often hear people say were the party of abraham lincoln really what does that mean, in todays world it means nothing!
socialism communism there just words thrown around and mean absolutely nothing, I ask anyone of you on here who have enough money go abroad for a while spend some time in another country and see that the way we describe our political terms are 180 from the way the rest of the world uses the same exact words.
America is made up of so many people from such diverse backgrounds that to think were going to find someone who pleases us all is just ridiculous. Look at countries that are much more homogeneous than ours they still find reasons to quibble, why because that's what these ideas of political parties do, you cannot expect to get anything done if you want it done "YOUR" way unless your a fidel castro, kim jun il or the likes.
take your time to understand that the only constant is this world is change and without understanding that and thinking that we can keep things the way they were or bring back the good old days are a pipe dream.
My only hope for anyone ruling any country or a group of people is that they educate the population; with education anything can be fixed, without education we have people screaming to burn books, latching on to words that have no meaning and again i ask you ladies and gentlemen who on here invests their money in their communities and not just their nest egg for later.
I don't quite understand the american ideal sometimes; now here i go.
There is so much intertwined here that its hard to unravel but lets take a look. The puritans came over because they didn't have representation in the old world, they took this land from people who were already living here sovereignly.
Then they build this nation on the backs of slaves; african americans are the only one's who were forced to come here *this is a fact* no slaves decided they wanted to work for free.
the prosperity provided by all this free labor along with all the immigration brought over great ideas to this country. Centuries of laws that were discriminator built up and unequal advantage for some while leaving others behind.
The prosperity americans have was propped up by the exploitation of millions of people, even to this day we exploit countries around the world for their resources.
I am a student of history and understand the winners write the books and its easy not to question when your on top but today so many americans feel its their right to rule supreme because they are americans. I don't think so, there has always be regulation and deregulations; look at the way the old coal mine owners would exploit the workers they had in the mines, the old oil barons, the tycoons who built the railroads, these people had children working for them, are those actions right or wrong? Thats for you to decide; what i want to point out is the fact that no matter who you elect they will collect your taxes, republicans or democrats it doesn't matter; its just what they want to spend the money on; and trust me both parties will spend your money.
If anyone on this board thinks that more laws similar to NAFA and other free trade agreements are not going to pass just check the bills in congress and see that they are sponsored by both democrats, republicans, independents, or whatever else they choose to call themselves.
If you take a look at what's being said on this thread it can be seen as very selfish and greedy; just keep your hands out of my pockets and i'll take care of my community. Let me pose this question, how many people on here give back to their communities, have you donated some sweat equity, give some money to a charity, even said a kind word to a homeless guy/ gal on the street.
My personal opinion is that these political parties are set up to keep people under control and thats it.... everyone was so happy and filled with hope for obama now he's going to be the death of our america; there is no our america its is and always will be changing; john f. kennedy faced hell to get elected because he was catholic and it was though he was going to be taking orders from the pope, now he's looked back on with rose tinted glasses.
People fight so hard against education and understanding the world outside of their little box; i've seen programs where people would shout burn the books but leave our bible alone; people still thinks the sun revolves around the earth, or don't know where the sun goes at night. . . its not about democrats or republicans i'm sure most of you guys know that those parties basically flipped during the civil rights era; i often hear people say were the party of abraham lincoln really what does that mean, in todays world it means nothing!
socialism communism there just words thrown around and mean absolutely nothing, I ask anyone of you on here who have enough money go abroad for a while spend some time in another country and see that the way we describe our political terms are 180 from the way the rest of the world uses the same exact words.
America is made up of so many people from such diverse backgrounds that to think were going to find someone who pleases us all is just ridiculous. Look at countries that are much more homogeneous than ours they still find reasons to quibble, why because that's what these ideas of political parties do, you cannot expect to get anything done if you want it done "YOUR" way unless your a fidel castro, kim jun il or the likes.
take your time to understand that the only constant is this world is change and without understanding that and thinking that we can keep things the way they were or bring back the good old days are a pipe dream.
My only hope for anyone ruling any country or a group of people is that they educate the population; with education anything can be fixed, without education we have people screaming to burn books, latching on to words that have no meaning and again i ask you ladies and gentlemen who on here invests their money in their communities and not just their nest egg for later.
I just wanted to share what I read and I thank everyone for all their advice about not getting skinned alive.
I know it won't be easy but I just think sellers will have to be a little more flexible when it comes to selling their properties now.
Louis made a great point about the regulations that are in place that will cause so much hardship and stress. How can something that's performing and covering its debt not be allows to restructure the financing to keep the property performing.
I am not in any hurry to go out and sign for debt or take over anyone elses problem, i'll stay focused and carefully evaluate my deals, i've studied some real estate courses plus with a board like this and all the years of experience I think I will be ok.
We all know that banks are GREAT property managers right.... not! I would think that a bank would be willing to work with property owners to keep as many properties off their books as possible and keep some cash coming in to service all the debt.
Mr. Russell i couldn't stop laughing when read your post 120,000 per door... wow that's just crazy.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125167422962070925.html?mod=rss_whats_news_us
an article from the wall street journal about the troubles coming around the corner for commercial real estate.
I personally think this will be the best time to buy commercial properties, not random speculative buying but purchase properties with strong income that are way under valued.
Its exciting and sad at the same time, during great economic turmoil more millionaires are made but that's because the wealth flows to the top, while thats good for the top, it's not so good for everyone else, but alas that's the system we live in and we have to play by the rules unless we sit on the bench and play Monday morning QB.
I say go out there and build some security for yourself and your family and friends.
Thanks for all the advice guys, Norm Chrostowski was correct I was just trying to figure how to value these but Ralph and Mike laid out some good points about why the property is 50% vacant.
From speaking with the controller *its in receivership*
the previous owners used the complex like a bank and kept borrowing against the property, when the markets turned they lost it, during the foreclosure process the vacancies skyrocketed now its bank owned, they are just holding it on the books.
with that said, the market has been a rental area forever and occupancies hang out in the 90's, in my calculations i did 85 just to be conservative.
I've had a lot of deals like this come across my desk, they are 5 million dollar and above. These are preforeclosures and REO and they are negative cash flowing usually because there around 50% occupied.
How do I value properties like this
456 units
50% occupied, no deferred maint. but REO
asking north of 9.4million
negative 120,000 per month
potential 364,416 per month
so with those numbers taking 15% vacancy
potential 309,753 per month divide by 2 =
potential 154,876 per month NOI
10 million @ 7% 30 years = 66,530 per month debt service
so with 85% occupancy potential NOI after debt service
1,858,512 - 798,360 = 1,060,152 per year or just over 88k per month.
but currently around 50% occupancy the property is losing 120k per month.
so how do i value something that has negative cash flows like described above?