All Forum Posts by: Ryan Moyer

I think it sounds like he probably understands that each deal will have to be analyzed on its own merits, but was just wondering about broader more high level things people follow (like the 1% rule in LTR) that can tell you right off the bat if a deal is even worth running the numbers on before you spend a bunch of time on it.

The answer I think is it depends on who you ask, buyers or sellers.

Sellers - The 10% Rule

In a vacation rental market where a high percentage of homes are STRs and home values are essentially based on STR revenue (they still appraise as residential homes but the market sets their values based on what works for investors), a home is typically listed for 10x its gross annual revenue.

If you go look in the Smokies or in Destin or markets like that, if a home does $120k gross annual revenue then it will be listed somewhere around $1.2M.  Obviously this varies somewhat property to property and yada yada yada, but that's kind of the starting point.

Buyers - The 15% Rule

On the flipside, especially now, most savvy investors look for something a bit better than that.  At current interest rates, even with self management it can be hard to cash flow with the 10% rule.  And the margins are tight which leaves a ton of risk as travel spending is still at record highs and there are no guarantees that will continue in a straight line upwards.  

It still works for large companies that are buying these properties as a long term inflation hedge and for appreciation, but for your typical cash flow STR investor the 10% rule doesn't really get the job done, especially at current interest rates.

So a lot of smaller, savvy investors look at 15% as a good starting point.  That is, if the purchase price divided by the gross annual revenue is less than 15%, it's probably not a deal worth looking into.  These can be hard to find in established vacation markets, where you might have to accept smaller margins.

Again, these things vary from market to market depending on property taxes, etc.  But like the 1% rule in LTR it's kind of a starting point some people use to thin out the list before diving deeper into properties and figuring out the specifics of all of the expenses unique to that property.

The thing 99% of owners miss is this.

The first thing you should look at in their contract is how hard it is for you to get out of the arrangement.

Most PM's are set up so they own everything.  The listing, the photos, the reviews, the guests.  And moving elsewhere requires starting over (which discourages unhappy owners from doing so) as well as paying some kind of penalty on future bookings, etc.

It's a great gig.  Get the owner so stuck in with you that it becomes too difficult for them to move on.  So then you end up with a bunch of PMs doing mediocre or below average work, but it's not worth it to the owners to go through the extreme hassle of getting out of the arrangment.

Just think about it from your end.  Would you rather be working with a manager/co-host who's best way to retain you is by doing a great job and keeping you happy, or a manager/co-host who's best way to retain you is by making it so difficult to leave that you decide to just stick it out?

Shoot me a DM.  I worked with a realtor in the area that helped us with STRs that we liked.  He was an investor himself so had lots of good info on the area and was good at finding investor specific properties.  I assume he would be good for MTR as well.

Not much to disagree with here.  @Michael Baum nailed it on Evolve.  They have a great business model.....for themselves.  For 10% they do only the front end, which is the easy part.

Vacasa you can search on here and read about.  Needless to say their general reputation in the industry is about as bad as you can get in an industry.  They have local branches so it can vary from some to the other, but typically if you want to have your house neglected and ignored while they rent shift a huge chunk of the income direct from the guest to themselves, bypassing you entirely, then they're the way to go.

The vast majority here self manage.  All of us thought it sounded daunting at the beginning, but now find it extremely doable.  I don't want to say it's totally a breeze and just works on autopilot like some influencers will claim, but it's really not that bad and depending on your projected revenue it can save you a ton of money since your management fees come out of revenue, not just profit.

If you are dead set on not doing it yourself then I would recommend a smaller, more boutique style PM or co-host that sticks to only a handful of properties.  Those types typically do a far better job than the large companies in terms of both taking care of your home and maximizing revenue.

Obviously better to self manage. But these are LTR landlords looking for passive income. If they had the capability/desire to self manage they would be listing it as an STR, not a LTR. They list as an LTR because they don't want to be involved.

You get more money (arbitragers typically pay over market rent) AND you get lower maintenance AND the place is usually better taken care of overall. It's a win-win-win so long as you're going with someone trustworthy and a history of good reviews. The idea that STR is typically harder on a property than LTR is silly.

Host:  "Your pipes are shot and leaking and there is mold everywhere in the walls this is TOTALLY going to blow your budget"

<comes out of commercial>

Owner: "Well after the $125 to re-do the pipes for our entire home and $25 for whole home mold remediation our budget was stretched really tight but I think we can sacrifice the vase in the guest room and still make it"

 The owner already benefits from it.  If someone came to me with a good reputation and history of reviews and offered me over market rate (as most arbitrager's do) AND offered to take care of all non cap-ex maintenance items while having the home cleaned every week and available for me to go in between bookings any time I want (whereas a long term renter often disappears into the home for years and you don't see anything until two years later when it is destroyed) I would rush at the chance.

Arbitrage is a pretty sweet deal for landlords, so long as you're partnered with a trustworthy host.

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is if you are buying the home under the LLC then the LLC will need to be on the bank account. If not, then no reason I can think of not to use your personal name.

My understanding (again, not a lawyer) is that LLC's often offer a lot less protection than people believe they do. On the flipside, they create a lot of complications in setup and lending (your loan options will be much worse as an LLC than an individual) so a lot of people don't find it to be worth the effort. If you've already bought the home using your personal name and are not using a commercial loan then it is probably too late to go the LLC route anyway. Again, I could be wrong on that.

I could be wrong (also not a licensed expert) but I think using a management company does make a difference as it would be difficult to prove material participation if a management company is the one doing all the work.

Just another reason to self manage!

 To be fair, I bought/sold my last two cars with Carvana and it was WAY better than going into the dealership and spending 4 hours with some idiot salesman that knows less about the car than I do.  And technology could certainly in the future make the god-awful real estate closing process a lot more bearable.

Who needs the internet to listen to music, right?  We already have the radio.