All Forum Posts by: Henry Clark

@Nicholas Ludwiczak

See the post I did on Self Storage valuation.

Cash flow at 65% occupancy should be zero, including interest and principal; for Phase 1 build.  That's on a 20 to 25 year term loan.  If your at $500 per month on 87.5% occupancy, I would walk away.

Do a cost to build on the Storage units.  I'm going with a 2 to 3 acre lot out in the suburbs or countryside.  $3,200 erected per unit; 3 acres at $??,???, Fence 2 acres $20,000; Gate system $15,000;  Electric $7,000;  Security $7,000; road rock $20,000; driveway entrance $??,???; No water/sewer/storm pond or drain.

Segregate the analysis of the house and the storage.  Especially if the house can be subdivided from the storage and sold and managed separately.  Analyze the house like you would normally do.  Then isolate on the storage.

This is a good size location to start with.  Determine if Self Storage is something you want to do.  I like to stay in my "lane" and not have several different types of businesses going at once.  Or if your market is small there, then you might need more "Lanes".

Find out why he is only 87.5% full.  Either the market is not big enough.  Or he is not marketing correctly.  Or he just added new units.  87.5% full from a unit, economic or sq foot standpoint?  If it is from a unit standpoint and most of the vacants are 5 x10's; but the economic occupancy it 95% then different questions arise.

Changing rates is not that big of an issue.  As people noted above, where are they going to go?  Its the middle of winter, also.  If you are sensitive to the potential for people leaving, then do it in segments.  Example: Do it by unit size, every 2 months a different size increase.  Or do it on all new contracts.  Or do it based on Lowest rates first or long term renters first.

This could be a great deal, but analyze your market.  What is the population size and how many units are in the immediate area?  Raising rents even $10 per unit has a large impact on the analysis.  If your market can support it, do a Phase 2.  This will only take a 35% occupancy to breakeven/payoff.  Added to Phase 1, this makes the total deal more attractive.

Check with your bank if they are willing to take a Second position on the property, if the owner does a loan on the down payment.  Don't ask the owner for a loan.  Just have the balance due 5 years out with zero % interest as part of the sale.

Don't buy the "business".  Buy the assets.  Have the assets listed separately on the contract.  House/roads/buildings/fence/electrical/security/signage/landscaping/etc.  That way it is easier to do year one writeoffs and not have to do a Cost Segregation study.  You determine the figures, tell him the figures to use for each of the above. Don't ask, unless he just built all of this and it is fresh on his mind.  Try to put as much value as possible away from the house and the storage buildings, to get faster write off.  Ask if you can put in a section for a Non Compete agreement so you can move more money away from the house and buildings.  You can write it off quicker.

Try for a 10% SBA loan.  To hold the deal since SBA can take a while, do a $10,000 earnest money deposit for 6 months.

Great first step into Self Storage.

@sarah andrews; follow up to your post and @steve c comments.

Response to question, “How are Self Storage locations valued?”. I will go with a multiple response answer.

Simple answer: If you look out on Loopnet, most Self Storage listings will show Cap rate.

Layered answer: I'm just talking about Mom/Pop and not REIT valuations. Most of them list for what they "think" it is worth, with no financial development of their listing price. Basically blood/sweat/tears valuation. Most of them have only owned and will only sell one location.

Integrity of Cap rate or data: I would look at the source or realtor behind the listing first. If a National self storage realtor, then they will most likely have challenged the data behind the Cap Rate. If a local Realtor they may not have cleansed the data. I looked at one location that is getting a lot of attention, and Property taxes and Management fees were not included in the Cap Rate calculation. They weren't trying to hide anything, they were just going with the info supplied from the owner.

Valuation method, who cares: There is a lot of REI cash sloshing around for self storage, thus a financial approach to valuing an asset is probably not the best approach for a listing price. You as an investor, however have to make sure the numbers work for your goals. I've evaluated several properties "List”/ “price I would offer” = $1,000,000/$600,000; $1,250,000/$1,000,000; $2,500,000/$1,800,000; $1,350,000/$800,000. They will probably get their price, just not from me. Currently “Developing” is a better investment than buying. But Developing is not in everyone's tool chest or timeline.

Our financial targets are 8 to 12 year payback/off, including interest/principal; with a 20/25 year term loan.

When evaluating a property from a Financial standpoint your major items are:

a. Revenue and is it sustainable.- audit the rent roll. Past dues, and length of rentals, last price increase. How many are the owners.

b. Property Tax- google local tax rate and also look at GIS map with tax info.

c. Insurance- use rough $2,000 per $500,000 valuation

d. Management- depends self service or onsite.

e. Electric/upkeep/grass/snow- estimate

Throw all of the above info out, except both of our financial targets.

Evaluating a property, the following are the steps we go through:

1. Financial targets met?

2. Develop financial data our self, other than Revenue figures. Your biggest numbers are noted above in “a” thru “e” above.

3. Value assessment. Lets compare two locations with the exact same net income and buildings. Both listed at $1,500,000 with cap rates of 6%; they both hit your financial targets. Both are in two different locations(A/B). I pick “B”. Why?

- B, has two extra acres tied to it. We can add 130 more units. Which has a payoff of 3.5 years once full and an occupancy of 35% needed to break even (including interest/principal).

- B, last raised their rents four years ago. $10 per unit increase on a $80 unit, increases your cash flow around 30%, and may reduce your total project payoff by 2 years, approximations.

- B, is not automated. Move to autopay, reduce your work load/management costs.

- B, has truck and packaging sales. Get rid of it and reduce management costs.

- B, has a two way intersection, with pull out lanes. C, does not have a cross over intersection.

- C, is in a market with 10 units/100 people; B, is in a market with 4 units/100 people.

- B, is in a hilly area, with almost no zoning for Self storage and in the middle of neighborhoods. C is in a flat industrial area, where anyone can build storage and away from the neighborhoods. Evaluate zoning maps, zoning codes, future zoning plans.

4. Risk Assessment. The last two items above are your risk assessment.

Don't tell the seller. I am willing to pay an extra $200,000 for "B". When you look at locations listed, they won't tell you the items noted in 3 above. Don't get hung up on the COC, NOI, Cap rate, etc. Verify they hit your "numbers". Challenge the data, then evaluate the properties on their merits.

Start small and Make Your Big Mistakes Early.

@Taylor White

My family did a Trailer park for about 10 years.  We are now in Self Storage.

Short answer Self Storage is better on all metrics you noted above.  As mentioned by Steve Cheslock, higher barrier to entry, both dollars and zoning.

Long answer, can't answer you:

ROI, is relative to how you bought in, Self Storage or MFH. Are you talking the same market for both.

Vermont is too wide a spread of Economics.  Are you talking Manchester, Concord, Portsmouth; basically the Boston market.  Or Middlebury, Lincoln, Hanover.  Both Self Storage and MFH are very location specific on both their Land/Unit and Rental price.

Realize the same can be said for MFH (BRRR), but on your 100-120 unit location (2 acres) you have both the Development gain of $100,000 to $200,000 just building the location and getting operational. Plus the ongoing returns. Other than Land price, it would cost the same to build in no matter what town your in, expensive (Portsmouth) or inexpensive (Hanover). If you buy in at the correct price, your return will be greater in Portsmouth or Manchester. Your rent will be double. Even if your land price is double, your return will be higher since the building/fence/security/electrical/etc will be the same.

The really big swings in building a Storage location are: Footings required, Concrete/Asphalt roads or rock, Sewer/water required for bathroom, fire hydrant required, storm retention pond or drainage, etc. These will impact your ROI comparison.

On your ROI calculation, Self Storage-

Building maintenance- zero;

Snow/road/grass maintenance; 

Property Tax/Insurance ($2,000/yr)/electric lights/Interest Expense

Management fee- we do it ourselves, but for comparable charge something.  We spend about 25 hours per week on 800 units, including grass cutting/snow removal/weeds/customer calls- self service.

Advertising- we don't do any, but use Sparefoot (about .5% overall).

Depreciation/Taxes- leave to you.  We do early depreciation and shoot for negative returns the first 1.5 years depending on year one write offs.

We don't think about ROI. Our objective is a location with an 8 to 12 year payback (payoff-including debt/interest); on a 20 to 25 year term loan. We look at cash flow. Buy or develop, and hold. Plus market appreciation (which actually occurs immediately upon opening) on the backside.

"“Build” Self Storage in Texas, California, Oregon and Washington.”

One dot means nothing, two dots is a possible trend, three or more dots in the same direction is a trend.

Hindsight is always 20/20. You can’t read the future (actually you can, read the Cattle Cycle). Etc, etc.

Forget the politics, this is about Real Estate.

Couple of things occurred in the last month around me. Most of you probably have known this for years. California, Oregon and Washington folks are either moving themselves or their money to Texas and Colorado; and I have no clue why, Ohio.

A:

Occurrences or Dots:

- Tonight a prospective renter called to confirm they would have two 10 x 20 units available. Talked with them for a little and asked where they were coming from, California. Said they and their kids are selling two houses and moving back to where they were raised. Will miss the climate, but couldn’t wait to get out of the state.

- Joined Bigger Pockets a while back. Building our last Self Storage location and thought I would share our experiences. Normally don’t do social media or forums; and just watch the local news. This whole movement of people and money became evident as I browsed through posts.

- Went down near San Antonio to help a friend get into the Self Storage business. I was expecting prices to be cheap down there, because they are going through an "Oil Bust" period right now. Been through one before, when I lived in Houston and Dallas, thus I have personal experience. But I was amazed that houses were super high and land was super high. They should be dirt cheap. Talked with three different banks and they all required LTV 40%. I can get 25% any day of the week where I'm at. The 40% actually made sense, since these banks are invested in an Oil economy, thus they need to be more conservative in a down cycle. Here is the catch. Texans, can't be supporting these high prices because of the Oil Bust, it has to be coming from outside.

- Was talking with a business acquaintance in Austin. I always ask folks how is business going. Said his business is doing great, but personally he just got up-ended. Young couple, just had a baby and decided they needed a house versus apartment. Made an offer $10,000 above asking price. Called the Realtor 2 days later to see what was up. They had 17 offers above the asking price and it was probably going $100,000 above list price. He knew he had been priced out of the market in his home state.

- Another friend down there was talking about valuing his house. He knew current sales, he should be around $650,000 to $700,000. But the Realtor with comps only was showing $400,000. Didn’t make sense in an Oil Bust economy.

- Talked with three Texas banks on financing. They all wanted 40% LTV. I told them I can get 25% all day long in Iowa, what's the deal. They said different market. Probably since all things are oil based in Texas, they have had to get conservative and increase their LTV%. Which means unless you bring money (California/Oregon/Washington) into Texas it will be hard to get finance.

Conclusion or Perception:

It should always be great when your house value is rising. The young people won’t like it though, because it is harder to get into the market. The old folks/fixed income won’t like it when their tax valuations start to increase. So who likes it? People who sell a small condo or house for $1mm, and then buy a huge house and acreage for $700,000 in the country side, with no state income tax.

B:

Being a TEXAN: Message- Be Careful investing in Texas Self Storage.

First of all, I’m not a Texan. Grew up in Louisiana. All of my relatives are from Texas. Baytown, Goose Creek, Clute, Angleton, and Freeport. Blue collar, oilfield, construction and military.

-What's it like to be a TEXAN. If you ever go to the San Jancinto monument, you will see a big concrete STAR at the top. Knowing your grandfather was the one who figured out how to put it up there. Knowing that when the “PC” folks come to take down the monument, that it won’t happen. What do all of those STARS on peoples houses and businesses mean around Texas? A lot.

-Being the Fire Chief at the Tokyo fire station at the beginning of the Korean War. Knowing you had a cush job and could stay there while your fellow soldiers went to the Korean War. Going down and requesting transfer orders to join the Texas outfits heading off to war, because you had to go with your Texas boys.

-Going on a Sunday picnic in your Model T with your young wife. Getting yelled at by a young man across the Trinity river, about what he would do to your wife if he was over there. Being 5ft 5 inches and 140 pounds and telling him to stay right there and you would be over to talk with him. Swimming the river, and killing the man with a knife. BIG HAT, LITTLE CATTLE loud mouth. Finding out he was a local politicians son and having to leave your family the next day and go to “No Mans” land between Texas and Louisiana and start another family.

Why did I tell you about being a TEXAN and not a Californian, Oregonian, or Washingtonian? I want to stress these are two totally different markets. As you look for a spot to build Storage in Texas, Be Careful.

““Build” Self Storage in Texas, California, Oregon and Washington.”

C:

Cattle Cycle:

Seeing Texas market and prices booming and California/Oregon/Washington money moving out; it made me think of the two ends of the Cattle Cycle. I want you to understand you can “Tell the Future”.

The cattle cycle is one of the true golden investment cycles of all time. You can actually read the future. It has held true since the 1800’s except for a miss in the 2000 era.

Doesn’t matter where you start in the cattle cycle, it just loops around. The following cycle is based on an increase or decrease of just 5% of the national Cow herd (breeders).

- Price is going up, start feeding more heifers to butcher. Herd at 95%.

- Prices continue to go up, then start pulling out heifers to breed. Herd at 100%

- Takes the heifer to get to two years to reach breeding age. Then 9 months to calve. Then the calve takes 18 months to slaughter. Total cycle takes about 4 years.

- Price then goes down. After everyone has decided to breed heifers, then there are to many cows. Herd at 105%.

- Price continues to decrease. Young steers and heifers still in the pipeline, driving down prices. Start selling off old cows. These extra cows butchered, make the prices go further down. Herd at 100%

- Price continues to decrease. Start selling off younger cows. Selling off younger cows, heifers and bulls, makes the market go down further. Herd at 95%

-Cycle then starts over.

““Build” Self Storage in Texas, California, Oregon and Washington.”

D:

So what is the point of me telling you the cattle cycle?

Self Storage runs in a cycle. If the economy is going up or if it is going down, Self storage is great. Actually a stagnant economy is the worst time for a Storage business.

Texas is going up.

California/Oregon/Washington are going down.

These are prolonged trends, which makes it a great time to “develop” Self Storage in those states.

The reason I am stressing for you to build, is you get a greater return when you are a “Developer” and you are not paying a premium in a hot market. Part of the reason is you are taking on a greater risk. In the Self Storage business, as a Developer, you are taking on the risk of “will they come?”. With these trends, you are able to “See into the future”. Keep in mind Self Storage is still a “LOCAL” business, within a 1 to 3 mile radius, no matter what the trends are.

E:

So which states should you build in?

Texas- is on the positive upswing (in the middle of an Oil Bust, see the Cattle Cycle story above), although downswings are just as profitable for Self Storage.

- No personal income tax, but high property taxes.

- Texas banks are running with 40% LTV. So you need to bring money/collateral to the table versus 25% LTV. Unless you do SBA 10%.

- So I have been saying BE CAREFUL in Texas. In the Counties there is “NO ZONING”. See the old guy in the old pickup, he’s worth $50million (oil). His Accountant just told him he needs more write offs. Normally “NO ZONING” sounds great. But from a Risk management standpoint, every neighbor along the road could do Self Storage. You have to evaluate and protect against that happening.

California/Oregon/Washington- are on the down swing. Don’t worry, sunshine, ocean and mountains will always draw people. Don’t worry, its a loop (Cattle cycle).

- high taxes

- here is the kicker, which is true for all states. The major risk to Self Storage owners from a Government is “Self Employment” taxes. As these states continue to come under financial stress they will look for more Taxing authority. If your going to build there, factor that into your equation.

““Build” Self Storage in Texas, California, Oregon and Washington.”

Use another post or forum for Politics.

Start small and Make Your Big Mistakes Early.

a.  What is the "basis" she has in the house?

b.  How much of a gain (cash) does she have if valued at $450k less the loan?

c.  Google who pays the tax if gifted to you and how much?  Want you to do the work answering this.

d.  Google what is the basis if you get the property after your mother passes away?  Says she is close to retiring, so I would think she would live for another 30 years.  Want you to do the work answering this.

e.  If she is near retirement, find out why she took out a second refi (lower interest rate, or took money out?).  Also she should not go into retirement with $150k debt, or cosigning for you on $150k debt, if you bought the house.  Something is wrong.  Help your mother figure out her problem.  She probably needs to sell the house and downsize.

f.  Help your mother do a 1031 into a more suitable house. Good RE experience.

g.  Back to you.  With $30k and no job.  I wouldn't put the effort into getting a finance loan, until your employed again.  With the $30k, I would work on Trailers or Mobile Home investing.  Lower dollar figure and you will probably not need to take out a loan.

h.  If your mother downsizes, then you should house hack into a Multi Family.

i.  RE learning.  Just doing one Trailer rental will be an education, that you will be able to use on your future investments.

@Clayton Smith

Might look at my post in the Commercial section about 10 days ago on Cost Seg.

@Jeffery Callis

The length of time it takes is more based on your efforts/preparedness than the bureaucracy of it.  Follow the notes I gave you above and you will have good success.  Make any offer subject to re-zoning, and put an end date on the offer.  This is one of those times where you "Help them to help you".  Lay it out for them.  Have done this 3 times in two different towns and got approved.  Only failed one time in a different town.  I was trying to jump a zoning level, and the (voting) neighbors didn't want it.  Which is how the process is supposed to work.

The city we are developing now, has their primary development area intentionally listed as agriculture (lowest zoning category).  That way they control what businesses come in.

Give you two ends of the spectrum. Other than fighting a tight market in SFH/MFH.

Low Entry Point.

Trailer hack, easy to get in/out. Buys you some time on the SFH/MFH side. Otherwise you will be rushing and locked in for a while. Don't know your family situation.

Go big:

Check out Loopnet for commercial properties. There is a 3 parcel land piece for about $375k asking. Build Contractor buildings on. Make one your "live in" business location. SBA 10% LTV if you qualify.

There is another commercial property walking distance to downtown.  Has an A/B unit in it.  Hack one side and rent the other.  See if this is area is being urbanized.

@Jai Reddy

Comes from being born in Oklahoma.  And also making mistakes and learning from them.

There was no reason, but the day I hit 30, I realized it was “ME”. Everyone around my family was doing fine, work was great, it was a nice day. Just for some reason, I realized I was the person in charge of my life. Its not like I all of a sudden matured. Paid my way thru college, top of the class, top 1% job, only got drunk twice in my life, etc, etc.

My realization was, I was it. Now I didn’t do anything with that thought. From that point on, until I was 50, I knew literally I could go through Mountains, jump over them, dig under them, go around them and stop Run away trains by hand. There was no obstacle in my life that I could not overcome.

And then it hit me. I ran into an obstacle, that I had no clue how to deal with, it could not exist (in my world), and the experts had no clue (from my point of view). No more Invincibility.

We are all at different points of our lives, perceptions of living into eternity, Invincibility, or just lack of thought on the subject. If your “there” and are aware of your lack of invincibility, please keep reading.

So you just Died. The following are actions not to put your Family through Hxxx. (Also Vendors, Customers, Bankers, employees)

A. “Will” or “Trust”?- Do you want things to go through Probate for several months or seamlessly go through a Trust with no stoppage in operations or control? Without a business, you might not care if your below a certain Dollar level or asset types that don’t deteriorate. Various discussion points- Bucket Trust, rename all of your assets to include the Trust, etc, talk with your attorney.

B. Power of Attorney- you can have this made specific to different aspects of your life. You may have a business partner who you want to be able to make decisions on your behalf for the Storage business, but have no say over your Personal life.

C. Bank Accounts “POD”- Payable on death, So you just died and who is going to pay the bills? This will automatically allow a person to access the funds and support the ongoing business. You probably have you and your spouse on the account already, so put somebody that is likely not traveling or living with you, in case both spouses pass at the same time.

D. Life insurance- not tax deductible, tax free proceeds. This is more about risk, comfort zone, lack of knowledge and stage of investment. With our fast growth we have taken loans out. All of the locations cash flow very well, so there really is no risk from losing a “wage earner”. It is more about taking pressure off the family members who will end up with the property. Also to cover any estate taxes or debt restructuring if they arise.

Where the major danger comes in, is if your in the middle of a development and your the main developer. The other family members only know how to run an existing facility. This is where you can lose a lot of money, if you have to sell the property and not complete the build out.

We identified three areas of risk and they are all on three different time tables. 1. Ongoing debt payments for existing units., 2. One location in Rent Up Phase., 3. One location in development phase and then Rent Up phase.

Per our advisor we took out three separate Term life policies. That way as the risk diminishes you can drop one policy at a time. If you had just one large policy covering all three risks, you would have to cancel a policy and renew. You have gotten older, any new health issues that arise, and the need to go through the review process again, may change your access and cost of an insurance renewal. Don’t get to exact figuring out your coverage needs, it is really cheap, go for the higher number.

E. Living Will; End of Life- This is more for applying medical treatment or not under certain circumstances to continue your life support, while you are incapacitated. Just added this so you have a complete package of estate issues. By this point you should not be in control of any business, unless you were incapacitated due to an accident or sudden medical issue.

F. Medical Power of Attorney- this allows someone to be in charge of your medical treatment if your incapacitated. Not so much a business impact, but wanted to keep the list complete.

G. Facilities Management- worst case, no one knows how to run or has the time to. Develop an “Info List” with all contacts and passwords. Identify ahead of time a Management company or local Realty company who you have vetted to manage the business. Have them identified on the list.

H. What does a storage facility look like 6 months after you have died? You go down to 70% occupancy from 95%. 40% of your customers are behind. Some customers haven’t paid in 6 months. No one can find the contracts. 5 of the units were yours. All of your systems are on paper and no one has kept up. Trash has been thrown over the back fence and the neighbors want it fixed. Weeds are everywhere. I come in and offer to pay 50% of the value. Ended up not buying your property. It takes about 3 to 4 months to get a location like this transitioned over to a management system and cleaned up, through auctions. Your investment value has greatly deteriorated since there was no transition plan.

So are you taking action; or are you sending everyone associated with you under the bus ?

“Start small and Make Your Big Mistakes Early”