Is Holton Wise Sale of Quad in Cleveland a Scam? (7809 Franklin)

[Lenza M.]

I have been following the Holton Wise properties for awhile and finally saw one that interested me a few days ago. I am very concerned this might be a scam after @James Wise refused to provide what I believe is basic information that should be given as part of a real estate transaction, and wanted to ask what you guys think.

The property in question is a Quadruplex in Cleveland located at 7809 Franklin Blvd and featured here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFnuAaENwY

 After watching the video, I wrote to James to inquire about the cash flow of the place and he replied only: "All info on the building is in the video." After watching the video a second time and not finding any mention of expenses I again emailed specifically requesting information on costs of operating the building. He pointed me to episodes of his Real Estate and Analysis show for other properties here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWaflf0vPbEnQ4v3Eyvw9HlbY8T7ZNLQE

In all of these videos James has a breakdown of operating costs for the building so he clearly recognizes that this is important information. For example here:

After watching the video for 7809 Franklin a 3rd time, I pointed out that I could not find any of this expense information and requested that he point me to the timestamp of the information in the video in case I was missing it. No reply.

Days later I sent a follow up email asking if the vacant unit mentioned in the video had been filled and if he had 2019 or YTD income information for the property. I was told "Again. All information that is available has been put in the video." Apparently information on how often tenants are paying rent is unavailable?

So, while I usually like to be very sure of an offer before submitting it, I sent James a full price offer assuming that I would be able to get documentation during a contingency period. My offer was rejected in 10 minutes and I was told that no document contingency would be acceptable.

So, I am left a bit bewildered -- what I am missing here? It seems like if you are trying to sell an income generating property but refuse to disclose any information about how much income the property in generating, you are probably running a scam of some kind? I thought James was a respectable no-nonsense person? What do you guys think, is this normal?

[James Hamling]

Originally posted by @Alpesh Parmar:

@Lenza M. I don’t think it’s a scam but I wouldn’t be comfortable with dealing with anyone who asks me to go through videos of the property and videos of shows to may be increase view count of the show and properties on Youtube or wherever.

Even a smallest turnkey provider would be able to share tax numbers and may be an excel with numbers.

 JAMES WISE IS NOT A TURNKEY PROPERTY PROVIDER, HE IS A REAL ESTATE BROKER! For God's sake why is this simplistic fundamental detail missed over and over and over again. 

The only difference between a property I list for sale and James Wise lists for sale is James Wise has a YouTube channel and giant following where he shows the properties to the world, including educating on the fundamentals. So in fact he is doing WAY MORE than any traditional agent or broker (myself included) is doing in ways of transparency, disclosure and notice. Go ahead, call 100 agents and let me know how many will show a video walk thru vs tell you to schedule a showing, or teach you what the numbers mean, rate the area etc etc etc because every traditional agent and broker will say do that yourself because of liability, we can share what we got and that's it. 

All who are real estate agents and brokers know this in full, we share what we have and it is not universal, it varies seller to seller. Some sellers haven't filled tax's since Gerald Ford was president, other do it via receipts in a shoe box, some just make up numbers, some have an accountant, it's literally all over the board as is every aspect of small MFH investments, the only standard is there is no standard. 

UGH.... 

And it is for this reason why a good REI Buyers Agent is worth our weight in gold, literally, because we make sense and order out of the chaos. We sniff out the roses from the bs. Due-Diligence, in every deal.

Ok, it's definitely beer-thirty for the rest of this thread. 

[Matthew Olszak]

1-4 Unit properties are treated as residential and as such are valued based on comps not income/expenses. 

Who actually bases their offer on the later for properties like that when the market doesn't? Folks who don't know any better, that's the message here. You think you're a "bona-fide buyer" but requesting that info proves otherwise, hence why the offer was immediately rejected. Simply having the $$$ doesn't make you a buyer.

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @James Hamling:

Originally posted by @Alpesh Parmar:

@Lenza M. I don’t think it’s a scam but I wouldn’t be comfortable with dealing with anyone who asks me to go through videos of the property and videos of shows to may be increase view count of the show and properties on Youtube or wherever.

Even a smallest turnkey provider would be able to share tax numbers and may be an excel with numbers.

 JAMES WISE IS NOT A TURNKEY PROPERTY PROVIDER, HE IS A REAL ESTATE BROKER! For God's sake why is this simplistic fundamental detail missed over and over and over again. 

The only difference between a property I list for sale and James Wise lists for sale is James Wise has a YouTube channel and giant following where he shows the properties to the world, including educating on the fundamentals. So in fact he is doing WAY MORE than any traditional agent or broker (myself included) is doing in ways of transparency, disclosure and notice. Go ahead, call 100 agents and let me know how many will show a video walk thru vs tell you to schedule a showing, or teach you what the numbers mean, rate the area etc etc etc because every traditional agent and broker will say do that yourself because of liability, we can share what we got and that's it. 

All who are real estate agents and brokers know this in full, we share what we have and it is not universal, it varies seller to seller. Some sellers haven't filled tax's since Gerald Ford was president, other do it via receipts in a shoe box, some just make up numbers, some have an accountant, it's literally all over the board as is every aspect of small MFH investments, the only standard is there is no standard. 

UGH.... 

And it is for this reason why a good REI Buyers Agent is worth our weight in gold, literally, because we make sense and order out of the chaos. We sniff out the roses from the bs. Due-Diligence, in every deal.

Ok, it's definitely beer-thirty for the rest of this thread. 

 .....I like your style.

[Tim Jacob]

I think the problem is buyers know they don't understand expenses.  Variable expenses can be daunting if you don't know how to analyze things.  The question becomes how can I analyze things if I'm out of state or Im new to buy and hold real estate or  your seasoned but not sure as well as its a different asset class than you typically invest in.  

You cant blame the listing agent.  First off his responsibility is to his seller.  Furthermore there is an obvious conflict of interest with the seller.  He wants to sell the house for top dollar so its in his best interest to hype the situation up positively or omit details.  Dont trust them and dont blame them if things dont work out.  In general if you inheirit tenants expect the worst.  If things were going well they probably wouldn't sell.

There is a way around this.  Get an investor's agent as your agent on the buyers side.  Try to find someone who has a lot of property management or investor experience in your market.  Yes they get paid to work for you.  If they get the property management business at the end they will care even more.  You will align your interests with them and hence you will get better analysis.  

Do not expect a property manager to spend an extensive amount of time accurately analyzing your property without paying them. There time is worth something so pay for it or get lesser analysis. Dont ever use someone with a conflict of interest.  This is if you want one of those off market deals where you cant get a decent agent.  I'd be careful with off market and use a great title company if you do that in which I would pay extra to get a hihher level of service for that.

Also spend an extra few hundred on the inspection to be more thorough then run it back to the agent with property management experience and hence project management experience in many cases and they could probably give you good repair or rehab numbers.  You might be able to get contractors over there or atleast give you a phone quote if you can be specific there.  

Considering the agent is free and the inspection is a few extra hundred its a pretty good deal and should be a no brainer for that.  

How to find the right buyers agent.  Do not use your friend from grade school unless they know what they are doing.  Do not call a brokerage you found on google and ask the first person who picks up the phone.  Ask whomever them do they invest, do they have any property management experience in the asset quality you are looking to acquire,  how much experience do they have in that, etc.  Get detailed.  Can they provide proof.  Every agent is going to tell you they are an investors agent and most of them aren't, they have no clue how to analyze, and they are only saying they are an i vestors agent bc they want money. Biggerpockets would be a great resource to find the right person as well as meetups.  I would network.  If you know you need analysis don't be a sucker.  

What is free is a few minutes with a pm.  Ask what neighborhoods are good wherever you are investing.  They arent going to give you affordable contractors bc if you dont pay the contractor they look bad so don't ask.  Asking that is a quick way to go to the bottom of peoples priority lists.  Ask what neighborhoods they would and would not manage in.  Thats a quick way to get good information.  

Hope this helps.

[Braden C.]

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Braden C.:

 It's a crime that this gem only has two votes...

 @James wise Truly shocking... 

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Joseph Cacciapaglia:

I spend most of my time helping investors acquire small multifamily properties. When we're looking at 2-4 unit properties, we almost never get any sort of P&L's. When we're making offers, we know lease amounts, who pays which utilities, and that's usually about it. It's your job as the investor to project the other expenses, based on how you plan to operate the property. During due diligence, we ask for copies of the leases and any available tenant application paperwork. Sometimes we'll get payment history from the tenants, but that's rare. We do expect to be told if any of the tenants are behind on their rents.

 Sounds like a pretty typical experience one can expect when working with this type of asset. You guys get a lot of cash flow investors down there in San Antonio? 

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:

1-4 Unit properties are treated as residential and as such are valued based on comps not income/expenses. 

Who actually bases their offer on the later for properties like that when the market doesn't? Folks who don't know any better, that's the message here. You think you're a "bona-fide buyer" but requesting that info proves otherwise, hence why the offer was immediately rejected. Simply having the $$$ doesn't make you a buyer.

 There is a huge gap between the theory folks read about or see on YouTube and actual practice. Things in the real world aren't as clean or simple as what you see in education based content. I do what I consider a very good job at peeling the curtain back and presenting the business to folks in it's most raw form. I don't think there is a single person in the business who is as blunt, crass and transparent about problems, difficulties and issues one will face while investing in the rental property industry as I am......Lol but even that can be open to criticism. Can't please everyone.

[Joseph Cacciapaglia]

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Joseph Cacciapaglia:

I spend most of my time helping investors acquire small multifamily properties. When we're looking at 2-4 unit properties, we almost never get any sort of P&L's. When we're making offers, we know lease amounts, who pays which utilities, and that's usually about it. It's your job as the investor to project the other expenses, based on how you plan to operate the property. During due diligence, we ask for copies of the leases and any available tenant application paperwork. Sometimes we'll get payment history from the tenants, but that's rare. We do expect to be told if any of the tenants are behind on their rents.

 Sounds like a pretty typical experience one can expect when working with this type of asset. You guys get a lot of cash flow investors down there in San Antonio? 

 San Antonio is somewhat of a hybrid market. We have some areas with strong cash flow and others that have relatively low cash flow, but very strong rent growth and appreciation. I tend to sell a lot more of the latter, because most of my investors are high net worth individuals that are more concerned with safety and long term wealth generation than they are with cash flow. I have a few clients on the other end of the spectrum, but often suggest that investors look to other markets, if year 1 cash flow is their #1 priority.

[Stone Saathoff]

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Joseph Cacciapaglia:

I spend most of my time helping investors acquire small multifamily properties. When we're looking at 2-4 unit properties, we almost never get any sort of P&L's. When we're making offers, we know lease amounts, who pays which utilities, and that's usually about it. It's your job as the investor to project the other expenses, based on how you plan to operate the property. During due diligence, we ask for copies of the leases and any available tenant application paperwork. Sometimes we'll get payment history from the tenants, but that's rare. We do expect to be told if any of the tenants are behind on their rents.

 Sounds like a pretty typical experience one can expect when working with this type of asset. You guys get a lot of cash flow investors down there in San Antonio? 

 We do get a fair amount of cash flow investors here in San Antonio. But like Joseph mentioned the bigger draw is the long term appreciation. Even in the midst of a global pandemic and national recession, we are seeing days on market go lower and prices go higher. The highest cashflowing single family property I have sold personally is pulling 500+ per month after all expenses are paid, but that includes a seperately rented casita in the backyard. The highest cashflowing single family standalone house I've sold is right around the 300 mark after all expenses. These are a bit better than average though and don't come along every day. Also included some value-add rehab work.

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Stone Saathoff:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Joseph Cacciapaglia:

I spend most of my time helping investors acquire small multifamily properties. When we're looking at 2-4 unit properties, we almost never get any sort of P&L's. When we're making offers, we know lease amounts, who pays which utilities, and that's usually about it. It's your job as the investor to project the other expenses, based on how you plan to operate the property. During due diligence, we ask for copies of the leases and any available tenant application paperwork. Sometimes we'll get payment history from the tenants, but that's rare. We do expect to be told if any of the tenants are behind on their rents.

 Sounds like a pretty typical experience one can expect when working with this type of asset. You guys get a lot of cash flow investors down there in San Antonio? 

 We do get a fair amount of cash flow investors here in San Antonio. But like Joseph mentioned the bigger draw is the long term appreciation. Even in the midst of a global pandemic and national recession, we are seeing days on market go lower and prices go higher. The highest cashflowing single family property I have sold personally is pulling 500+ per month after all expenses are paid, but that includes a seperately rented casita in the backyard. The highest cashflowing single family standalone house I've sold is right around the 300 mark after all expenses. These are a bit better than average though and don't come along every day. Also included some value-add rehab work.

 We talking fixed expenses here? Or fixed with variable estimates such as Vac, repairs, turnover etc.....? I just recently dipped my toe in San Antonio & Austin as we're starting to do some marketing for a PM down there. But I'm still very green on the market. Most everything down there I've seen thus far is A grade stuff that appears to be owned by accidental landlords.

[Stone Saathoff]

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Stone Saathoff:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Joseph Cacciapaglia:

I spend most of my time helping investors acquire small multifamily properties. When we're looking at 2-4 unit properties, we almost never get any sort of P&L's. When we're making offers, we know lease amounts, who pays which utilities, and that's usually about it. It's your job as the investor to project the other expenses, based on how you plan to operate the property. During due diligence, we ask for copies of the leases and any available tenant application paperwork. Sometimes we'll get payment history from the tenants, but that's rare. We do expect to be told if any of the tenants are behind on their rents.

 Sounds like a pretty typical experience one can expect when working with this type of asset. You guys get a lot of cash flow investors down there in San Antonio? 

 We do get a fair amount of cash flow investors here in San Antonio. But like Joseph mentioned the bigger draw is the long term appreciation. Even in the midst of a global pandemic and national recession, we are seeing days on market go lower and prices go higher. The highest cashflowing single family property I have sold personally is pulling 500+ per month after all expenses are paid, but that includes a seperately rented casita in the backyard. The highest cashflowing single family standalone house I've sold is right around the 300 mark after all expenses. These are a bit better than average though and don't come along every day. Also included some value-add rehab work.

 We talking fixed expenses here? Or fixed with variable estimates such as Vac, repairs, turnover etc.....? I just recently dipped my toe in San Antonio & Austin as we're starting to do some marketing for a PM down there. But I'm still very green on the market. Most everything down there I've seen thus far is A grade stuff that appears to be owned by accidental landlords.

That is fixed expenses and typical numbers for vacancy and capex.

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Stone Saathoff:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Stone Saathoff:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Joseph Cacciapaglia:

I spend most of my time helping investors acquire small multifamily properties. When we're looking at 2-4 unit properties, we almost never get any sort of P&L's. When we're making offers, we know lease amounts, who pays which utilities, and that's usually about it. It's your job as the investor to project the other expenses, based on how you plan to operate the property. During due diligence, we ask for copies of the leases and any available tenant application paperwork. Sometimes we'll get payment history from the tenants, but that's rare. We do expect to be told if any of the tenants are behind on their rents.

 Sounds like a pretty typical experience one can expect when working with this type of asset. You guys get a lot of cash flow investors down there in San Antonio? 

 We do get a fair amount of cash flow investors here in San Antonio. But like Joseph mentioned the bigger draw is the long term appreciation. Even in the midst of a global pandemic and national recession, we are seeing days on market go lower and prices go higher. The highest cashflowing single family property I have sold personally is pulling 500+ per month after all expenses are paid, but that includes a seperately rented casita in the backyard. The highest cashflowing single family standalone house I've sold is right around the 300 mark after all expenses. These are a bit better than average though and don't come along every day. Also included some value-add rehab work.

 We talking fixed expenses here? Or fixed with variable estimates such as Vac, repairs, turnover etc.....? I just recently dipped my toe in San Antonio & Austin as we're starting to do some marketing for a PM down there. But I'm still very green on the market. Most everything down there I've seen thus far is A grade stuff that appears to be owned by accidental landlords.

That is fixed expenses and typical numbers for vacancy and capex.

 Good stuff.

[Jason Baisley]

Quote from @James Wise:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Lenza M.:

I have been following the Holton Wise properties for awhile and finally saw one that interested me a few days ago. I am very concerned this might be a scam after @James Wise refused to provide what I believe is basic information that should be given as part of a real estate transaction, and wanted to ask what you guys think.

The property in question is a Quadruplex in Cleveland located at 7809 Franklin Blvd and featured here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFnuAaENwY

 After watching the video, I wrote to James to inquire about the cash flow of the place and he replied only: "All info on the building is in the video." After watching the video a second time and not finding any mention of expenses I again emailed specifically requesting information on costs of operating the building. He pointed me to episodes of his Real Estate and Analysis show for other properties here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWaflf0vPbEnQ4v3Eyvw9HlbY8T7ZNLQE

In all of these videos James has a breakdown of operating costs for the building so he clearly recognizes that this is important information. For example here:

After watching the video for 7809 Franklin a 3rd time, I pointed out that I could not find any of this expense information and requested that he point me to the timestamp of the information in the video in case I was missing it. No reply.

Days later I sent a follow up email asking if the vacant unit mentioned in the video had been filled and if he had 2019 or YTD income information for the property. I was told "Again. All information that is available has been put in the video." Apparently information on how often tenants are paying rent is unavailable?

So, while I usually like to be very sure of an offer before submitting it, I sent James a full price offer assuming that I would be able to get documentation during a contingency period. My offer was rejected in 10 minutes and I was told that no document contingency would be acceptable.

So, I am left a bit bewildered -- what I am missing here? It seems like if you are trying to sell an income generating property but refuse to disclose any information about how much income the property in generating, you are probably running a scam of some kind? I thought James was a respectable no-nonsense person? What do you guys think, is this normal?

 It's probably a scam......RUN!

 On a serious note. I implore anyone who's got the slightest bit of curiosity about the "Is this a scam" question posed by my man Lenza to watch the video he shared. After that, go ahead and watch a few of the 80+ episodes of the MLS Search & Analysis Show he shared. In any of those 80+ episodes I teach you how to run numbers and make safe, conservative and accurate cash flow estimations on properties such as these. There is nobody and I mean nobody in this business who's running a more well known and transparent operation than Holton-Wise.

You first gave me the wrong information before I fell for for your scam and purchased 3 reviews. Without even asking for one or giving you the criteria I was looking for you sent a review of a STR. Who buys STR in Cleveland? Anyways… After talking to a member of your officer team I needed to buy a different package and pay more money to get what I wanted. So I paid thinking I was going to get what I was looking for. NOPE! I was sent MLS reviews but they were not what I was asking for. They were also very old and had excepted offers on them for weeks. I tried to talk to his team and attempt to fix the problem after third MLS review came and it was the same ol sorry. It was an old listing and was not what I was asking for. After talking again to his team they transferred me to Steve where he proceeded to listen to PORN in the background and telling me I would need to pay more money. I didn't even ask for my remaining mls reviews. I couldn't continue doing business with someone that treats their clients like crap. Please don't fall for the theater. I spoke to a lawyer and was told James is walking the line of legal and illegal. Dont waste you money like me. Don't fall for his Version of the analytics. I assure you there will be many hidden costs to deal with this man.

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Jason Baisley:

Quote from @James Wise:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Lenza M.:

I have been following the Holton Wise properties for awhile and finally saw one that interested me a few days ago. I am very concerned this might be a scam after @James Wise refused to provide what I believe is basic information that should be given as part of a real estate transaction, and wanted to ask what you guys think.

The property in question is a Quadruplex in Cleveland located at 7809 Franklin Blvd and featured here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFnuAaENwY

 After watching the video, I wrote to James to inquire about the cash flow of the place and he replied only: "All info on the building is in the video." After watching the video a second time and not finding any mention of expenses I again emailed specifically requesting information on costs of operating the building. He pointed me to episodes of his Real Estate and Analysis show for other properties here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWaflf0vPbEnQ4v3Eyvw9HlbY8T7ZNLQE

In all of these videos James has a breakdown of operating costs for the building so he clearly recognizes that this is important information. For example here:

After watching the video for 7809 Franklin a 3rd time, I pointed out that I could not find any of this expense information and requested that he point me to the timestamp of the information in the video in case I was missing it. No reply.

Days later I sent a follow up email asking if the vacant unit mentioned in the video had been filled and if he had 2019 or YTD income information for the property. I was told "Again. All information that is available has been put in the video." Apparently information on how often tenants are paying rent is unavailable?

So, while I usually like to be very sure of an offer before submitting it, I sent James a full price offer assuming that I would be able to get documentation during a contingency period. My offer was rejected in 10 minutes and I was told that no document contingency would be acceptable.

So, I am left a bit bewildered -- what I am missing here? It seems like if you are trying to sell an income generating property but refuse to disclose any information about how much income the property in generating, you are probably running a scam of some kind? I thought James was a respectable no-nonsense person? What do you guys think, is this normal?

 It's probably a scam......RUN!

 On a serious note. I implore anyone who's got the slightest bit of curiosity about the "Is this a scam" question posed by my man Lenza to watch the video he shared. After that, go ahead and watch a few of the 80+ episodes of the MLS Search & Analysis Show he shared. In any of those 80+ episodes I teach you how to run numbers and make safe, conservative and accurate cash flow estimations on properties such as these. There is nobody and I mean nobody in this business who's running a more well known and transparent operation than Holton-Wise.

You first gave me the wrong information before I fell for for your scam and purchased 3 reviews. Without even asking for one or giving you the criteria I was looking for you sent a review of a STR. Who buys STR in Cleveland? Anyways… After talking to a member of your officer team I needed to buy a different package and pay more money to get what I wanted. So I paid thinking I was going to get what I was looking for. NOPE! I was sent MLS reviews but they were not what I was asking for. They were also very old and had excepted offers on them for weeks. I tried to talk to his team and attempt to fix the problem after third MLS review came and it was the same ol sorry. It was an old listing and was not what I was asking for. After talking again to his team they transferred me to Steve where he proceeded to listen to PORN in the background and telling me I would need to pay more money. I didn't even ask for my remaining mls reviews. I couldn't continue doing business with someone that treats their clients like crap. Please don't fall for the theater. I spoke to a lawyer and was told James is walking the line of legal and illegal. Dont waste you money like me. Don't fall for his Version of the analytics. I assure you there will be many hidden costs to deal with this man.

 Clayton.... that you buddy? Aaaahhhhh, so sad, can't even use own name in BP anymore huh. Well hey, on a positive note, you seem to be more slippery then Crisco, or has Interpol not put out that capture warrant in Portugal yet? Ya know, next time when trying to slam James W., maybe skip the Porn in office thing, not everybody operates like that, maybe too much time in the Epstein circle has warped perceptions a bit right buddy. Well hey, you have a great day, remember when they catch ya, DONT pickup the soap.... or maybe do it regularly, depending what your into. 

[James Wise]

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Jason Baisley:

Quote from @James Wise:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Lenza M.:

I have been following the Holton Wise properties for awhile and finally saw one that interested me a few days ago. I am very concerned this might be a scam after @James Wise refused to provide what I believe is basic information that should be given as part of a real estate transaction, and wanted to ask what you guys think.

The property in question is a Quadruplex in Cleveland located at 7809 Franklin Blvd and featured here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFnuAaENwY

 After watching the video, I wrote to James to inquire about the cash flow of the place and he replied only: "All info on the building is in the video." After watching the video a second time and not finding any mention of expenses I again emailed specifically requesting information on costs of operating the building. He pointed me to episodes of his Real Estate and Analysis show for other properties here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWaflf0vPbEnQ4v3Eyvw9HlbY8T7ZNLQE

In all of these videos James has a breakdown of operating costs for the building so he clearly recognizes that this is important information. For example here:

After watching the video for 7809 Franklin a 3rd time, I pointed out that I could not find any of this expense information and requested that he point me to the timestamp of the information in the video in case I was missing it. No reply.

Days later I sent a follow up email asking if the vacant unit mentioned in the video had been filled and if he had 2019 or YTD income information for the property. I was told "Again. All information that is available has been put in the video." Apparently information on how often tenants are paying rent is unavailable?

So, while I usually like to be very sure of an offer before submitting it, I sent James a full price offer assuming that I would be able to get documentation during a contingency period. My offer was rejected in 10 minutes and I was told that no document contingency would be acceptable.

So, I am left a bit bewildered -- what I am missing here? It seems like if you are trying to sell an income generating property but refuse to disclose any information about how much income the property in generating, you are probably running a scam of some kind? I thought James was a respectable no-nonsense person? What do you guys think, is this normal?

 It's probably a scam......RUN!

 On a serious note. I implore anyone who's got the slightest bit of curiosity about the "Is this a scam" question posed by my man Lenza to watch the video he shared. After that, go ahead and watch a few of the 80+ episodes of the MLS Search & Analysis Show he shared. In any of those 80+ episodes I teach you how to run numbers and make safe, conservative and accurate cash flow estimations on properties such as these. There is nobody and I mean nobody in this business who's running a more well known and transparent operation than Holton-Wise.

You first gave me the wrong information before I fell for for your scam and purchased 3 reviews. Without even asking for one or giving you the criteria I was looking for you sent a review of a STR. Who buys STR in Cleveland? Anyways… After talking to a member of your officer team I needed to buy a different package and pay more money to get what I wanted. So I paid thinking I was going to get what I was looking for. NOPE! I was sent MLS reviews but they were not what I was asking for. They were also very old and had excepted offers on them for weeks. I tried to talk to his team and attempt to fix the problem after third MLS review came and it was the same ol sorry. It was an old listing and was not what I was asking for. After talking again to his team they transferred me to Steve where he proceeded to listen to PORN in the background and telling me I would need to pay more money. I didn't even ask for my remaining mls reviews. I couldn't continue doing business with someone that treats their clients like crap. Please don't fall for the theater. I spoke to a lawyer and was told James is walking the line of legal and illegal. Dont waste you money like me. Don't fall for his Version of the analytics. I assure you there will be many hidden costs to deal with this man.

 Clayton.... that you buddy? Aaaahhhhh, so sad, can't even use own name in BP anymore huh. Well hey, on a positive note, you seem to be more slippery then Crisco, or has Interpol not put out that capture warrant in Portugal yet? Ya know, next time when trying to slam James W., maybe skip the Porn in office thing, not everybody operates like that, maybe too much time in the Epstein circle has warped perceptions a bit right buddy. Well hey, you have a great day, remember when they catch ya, DONT pickup the soap.... or maybe do it regularly, depending what your into. 

Jason.....You've got a lot of nonsensical ramblings going on in your post. In addition I have reviewed your correspondence with my team, your ramblings there were even more nonsensical. If you have a valid complaint about how Holton-Wise does business and how the MLS Search & Analysis Show works that's one thing, but when you come on here rambling falsehoods in an effort to hurt my credibility, I've got to come on here and share the facts with the readers of BP.

"Without even asking for one or giving you the criteria I was looking for you sent a review of a STR. Who buys STR in Cleveland? Anyways…"

We made you a video about short term rentals because you ordered a short term rental video package from us.

You know this information. You know we have the written correspondence to publicly verify you are lying, lol. Not sure what you are thinking you'll get out of this. Put the shovel down my guy.

[James Hamling]

Quote from @James Wise:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Jason Baisley:

Quote from @James Wise:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Lenza M.:

I have been following the Holton Wise properties for awhile and finally saw one that interested me a few days ago. I am very concerned this might be a scam after @James Wise refused to provide what I believe is basic information that should be given as part of a real estate transaction, and wanted to ask what you guys think.

The property in question is a Quadruplex in Cleveland located at 7809 Franklin Blvd and featured here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFnuAaENwY

 After watching the video, I wrote to James to inquire about the cash flow of the place and he replied only: "All info on the building is in the video." After watching the video a second time and not finding any mention of expenses I again emailed specifically requesting information on costs of operating the building. He pointed me to episodes of his Real Estate and Analysis show for other properties here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWaflf0vPbEnQ4v3Eyvw9HlbY8T7ZNLQE

In all of these videos James has a breakdown of operating costs for the building so he clearly recognizes that this is important information. For example here:

After watching the video for 7809 Franklin a 3rd time, I pointed out that I could not find any of this expense information and requested that he point me to the timestamp of the information in the video in case I was missing it. No reply.

Days later I sent a follow up email asking if the vacant unit mentioned in the video had been filled and if he had 2019 or YTD income information for the property. I was told "Again. All information that is available has been put in the video." Apparently information on how often tenants are paying rent is unavailable?

So, while I usually like to be very sure of an offer before submitting it, I sent James a full price offer assuming that I would be able to get documentation during a contingency period. My offer was rejected in 10 minutes and I was told that no document contingency would be acceptable.

So, I am left a bit bewildered -- what I am missing here? It seems like if you are trying to sell an income generating property but refuse to disclose any information about how much income the property in generating, you are probably running a scam of some kind? I thought James was a respectable no-nonsense person? What do you guys think, is this normal?

 It's probably a scam......RUN!

 On a serious note. I implore anyone who's got the slightest bit of curiosity about the "Is this a scam" question posed by my man Lenza to watch the video he shared. After that, go ahead and watch a few of the 80+ episodes of the MLS Search & Analysis Show he shared. In any of those 80+ episodes I teach you how to run numbers and make safe, conservative and accurate cash flow estimations on properties such as these. There is nobody and I mean nobody in this business who's running a more well known and transparent operation than Holton-Wise.

You first gave me the wrong information before I fell for for your scam and purchased 3 reviews. Without even asking for one or giving you the criteria I was looking for you sent a review of a STR. Who buys STR in Cleveland? Anyways… After talking to a member of your officer team I needed to buy a different package and pay more money to get what I wanted. So I paid thinking I was going to get what I was looking for. NOPE! I was sent MLS reviews but they were not what I was asking for. They were also very old and had excepted offers on them for weeks. I tried to talk to his team and attempt to fix the problem after third MLS review came and it was the same ol sorry. It was an old listing and was not what I was asking for. After talking again to his team they transferred me to Steve where he proceeded to listen to PORN in the background and telling me I would need to pay more money. I didn't even ask for my remaining mls reviews. I couldn't continue doing business with someone that treats their clients like crap. Please don't fall for the theater. I spoke to a lawyer and was told James is walking the line of legal and illegal. Dont waste you money like me. Don't fall for his Version of the analytics. I assure you there will be many hidden costs to deal with this man.

 Clayton.... that you buddy? Aaaahhhhh, so sad, can't even use own name in BP anymore huh. Well hey, on a positive note, you seem to be more slippery then Crisco, or has Interpol not put out that capture warrant in Portugal yet? Ya know, next time when trying to slam James W., maybe skip the Porn in office thing, not everybody operates like that, maybe too much time in the Epstein circle has warped perceptions a bit right buddy. Well hey, you have a great day, remember when they catch ya, DONT pickup the soap.... or maybe do it regularly, depending what your into. 

Jason.....You've got a lot of nonsensical ramblings going on in your post. In addition I have reviewed your correspondence with my team, your ramblings there were even more nonsensical. If you have a valid complaint about how Holton-Wise does business and how the MLS Search & Analysis Show works that's one thing, but when you come on here rambling falsehoods in an effort to hurt my credibility, I've got to come on here and share the facts with the readers of BP.

"Without even asking for one or giving you the criteria I was looking for you sent a review of a STR. Who buys STR in Cleveland? Anyways…"

We made you a video about short term rentals because you ordered a short term rental video package from us.

You know this information. You know we have the written correspondence to publicly verify you are lying, lol. Not sure what you are thinking you'll get out of this. Put the shovel down my guy.

[Michelle Fenn]

Not a scam, that is how James Wise does business.  I am a realtor and property manager in Cleveland.  I helped a Boston investor purchase a 6 unit apartment building in Brooklyn from Holton Wise Aug 2021.  He is very responsive via email.  Property closed without a hitch.  I had to pick up the keys from a lockbox on his office.  Might want to have a PM or realtor in Cleveland to deal with this process.   

[Ace Kaspar]

Quote from @Chris Seveney:

James, I think you are underselling your product, most people would of said that property with the toilet that looked like someone dumped a portajon on it would have been rent ready and turnkey with minimal light rehab required. Probably $15k max

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

This was entertaining :)

I did not watch the video. Life's so short, after all. 

@Lenza M. - James sells investment properties in Cleveland; TK. If you don't understand the implications of this, you should likely not be a buyer.

That said, James, as you know I play in the big pond. The rationale you put forward, that because this is not commercial, it's somehow different and expectations for disclosure should be lowered is flawed to the bone. Let me explain my thoughts...

The reason I buy communities and the reason I deal with Berkadia on my debt instead of a local bank is that both the asset and the process are more institutional, rational, and efficient. By contrast, small multifamily is a highly inefficient market.

You teach underwriting to the average, which is the correct way to do it. However, if I want to know the average rent per sq.ft., economic loss, insurance cost, or any other = line-item of OpEx for large multifamily in a given town, there are a number of statistical publications for me to reference. All of these things on an institutional level are much more trackable and transparent.

However, in the small stuff - who the hell knows. You have to be a local operator to really know anything. 

You sell TK investments to out-of-town folks. I would think you would go the extra mile and provide them with the trailing financials to help them make an efficient decision in a highly inefficient market. I can't imagine closing a $20M deal without a whole lot of disclosure. But, for a lot of people, a $50,000 deal is akin a $20M to me. 

 lol Ben c'mon you're just trying to stir the pot. You and I both know that you can't look at 1-4 unit properties and honestly believe that the standard of financial disclosure isn't going to be lowered from a 100 unit apartment building. Prior to you move out of Ohio when you were buying your iddy biddy singles and doubles for your seller financed portfolio you knew damn well the type of sellers you where dealing with didn't always have or provide historical data.....

Ben, while you're here let's chat playa......What about Joe blow duplex owner who's a disabled vet. He lives in the down unit of his duplex and he let's his step son stay in the up unit. He wants to sell so he can move to Phoenix and get a tan like you. Ben why don't you go watch the episode of my show in question. When you're done come back here to explain to Mr Lenza why the fact remains,  if he wants more info then I provided to him, then this property ain't for him.

 And for the record. Ben is slightly wrong. I don't typically sell turnkey assets. A more accurate example of what I do is provide the turnkey experience to investors on assets that are not currently in turnkey shape. Mostly stuff owned by mom an pops......With Ben being as big of a fan as he is, I am saddened that he made this misstep.

 I am grabbing my popcorn reading this and I keep seeing you reply with nothing lol 

[Engelo Rumora]

@James Wise Happy to see that you gotta eat S%#@ sometimes haha

Have you learnt to like the flavor mate? lol

[James Wise]

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

@James Wise Happy to see that you gotta eat S%#@ sometimes haha

Have you learnt to like the flavor mate? lol

 Tastes like chicken.