For newbies and the BIG MEANIE INVESTORS in the BiggerPockets forums

[Jim K.]

We get a lot of this, and sometimes, it really does baffle me. As my profile says, I'm an affordable-housing handyman landlord running a small outfit out here in Pittsburgh and doing what I do is NOT EASY. It's significantly harder than anything else I've ever done. Not to be a jerk about it, but I've done my share of difficult things. I'm pretty sure my share was quite a bit more than some might believe.

So I feel my story is really only even possible here in the USA. I am a living example that real estate, starting from practically nothing, can take you places. I'm not claiming that running this outfit is passive investing, not by a long shot. I'm not sitting at my laptop on a boat in a marina with my multiple girlfriends du jour in thongs bringing me umbrella drinks every time I snap my fingers. But still, I'm getting it done, much more than I could have imagined some twenty ago before my first property rehab.

Newbies, WE ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY. The people who have been here for a while are not trying to bully you. If you feel bullied, if you feel your dreams are being quashed, well, you need more resilient dreams and more pressing motivation. We're disclosing the realities of this business, and many of those realities are just not pretty. Incidentally, no one is paying us to be extra-special nice to you while we do it. No one from BP has ever paid me a penny to write a single one of the 5000 plus posts I've written here (full disclosure, @Mindy Jensen did send me a T-shirt).

The reason I'm here is that I actually want to help, I'm actually looking for meaningful connections, I've actually found some here, and I am grateful. Really smart and capable people, who really understand this business, who have given me help and knowledgeable advice that is literally worth thousands on thousands of dollars.

If you feel that I or others in the forums have been unkind to you, please come here and air your grievances. I promise that I, at least, will hear you out.

CAVEAT: There are a lot of things established investors try not to say on public forums. Some aspects of any discussion like this (discussions of net worth, verification of one's holding, even my full name) should really be private. But once in a while, when the BS gets too thick and my eyes start to water from the stench, things need to be aired out and I will disclose these things in private in this discussion to someone who questions that I am who I say I am, or whom I think is not being fully truthful.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Quote from @JD Martin:

Quote from @Mark Cruse:

Quote from @Jim K.:

Quote from @Mark Cruse:

The place has just changed so much that itś hard for me to relate. Yes, Ive seen the over sensitive investors who dont receive a touchy feely response or something they dont wish to hear, so they throw a cyber meltdown while leaving. I´ve seen the newbies who ask every basic thing they can easily google but want it all spelled out for them. So many dont want to contribute anything but are requesting someone take hours of of their busy day the hold their hand where many will never even attempt  to do a deal.  Ive had person after person contact me in DMs that had lack of everything needed for this business and were not serious in any way. That, in addition to experienced investor advising others to treat certain tenants like animals has just made me not so motivated to participate like I used to. I miss how hungry and serious we were back in my day. I miss the climate of not thinking its a get rich or easy azz MLM gig. In others words, Im the old man that misses the good ole days. LOL 

That's the concept I was reaching for, Mark...absolutely. The new people who post are not hungry any more. I mean, really hungry. "Should I buy now, interest rates are so high...I don't want to househack in a dirty duplex with a stranger, oh whatever shall I do, wherever shall I go?

 Yep, but I think I can conceptualize how the culture has created a very soft mentality in general; but I cant nail down where the lazy and get rich quick aspect comes from. Im always pondering if I give my kids so much that they will be lazy, entitled or soft. Even if it does, what has made the mentality shift so drastic in a generation? What makes them believe everything has limited work and will get them rich to fire their boss in a month? Cant all be youtube and gurus selling pipe dreams!!! Its a balance that Iḿ always wondering about but still Iḿ not sure how it all pans out.  

 A big part of it comes from the fact that we are living in the wealthiest country in the wealthiest time in the history of humanity. The poorest Americans - those in the bottom 5% - are wealthier than 70% of the rest of the world. The vast majority of Americans have no idea what real struggle is like. We are also living in an extremely extended period of relative calm in this country without major upheaval. Since the end of WW2 until now we've only had blips, relative to the history of not only this country but the rest of the world. We've had 80 more or less uninterrupted years of peace and economic stability. Yeah, we had Vietnam and Korea and Iraq and Afghanistan, but these were wars fought far away, required no sacrifice or change in living standards for virtually any American, and involved relatively few people. We had a couple of inflation hits, but they ended relatively easily. We had 9/11 and a pandemic and a Great Financial Crisis but none of those even came remotely close to the Spanish Flu or the Great Depression. If you look at the entire history of this country there is no other 80 year period of such stability. Hell, in the first 80 years of this country we had a revolutionary war, a British invasion, and a Civil War. 80 years starting at the Civil War we had two massive economic meltdowns and 2 World Wars. Virtually no one alive as an American today had to suffer. Of course I realize lots of people grew up poor, or discriminated against, or had childhoods of divorce or drug abuse or sexual abuse or other things. I don't minimize that, only to say that in the past people had that AND massive societal problems, war, scarcity and economic poverty. People grew thicker skin because they had to. 

Adversity that can be overcome builds strength and character. The most adversity most Americans are facing today is whether or not Doordash delivers to their neighborhood. 

the social safety net is well established and many investors on this site profit from it.. IE section 8 and all sorts of voucher programs.. The amount of people that will never really work is pretty staggering when you think about it.. And they are not skin and bones .  usually quite the opposite.

[Don Konipol]

Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

Quote from @Chris Seveney:

@Jim K.

I agree - unfortunately too many people are so easily influenced on social media and all the gurus making it sound easy. There are many on here who’ve been in real estate for 25+ years and have seen 7 or 8 out of every 10 people fail, miserably in real estate.

I had someone send me a message the other day telling me I’m too mean.

My intention is not to be mean, my intention is to be brutally honest and to tell people what others are afraid to tell them because it is not in their best interest because they’re trying to sell them a product.

Chris, if you are too mean, what in the world am I? The devil?

YES

[Don Konipol]

The thoughts and points made on this thread are so GOOD, I only have one thing to add.

The experienced posters on theses forums have been successful in different aspects of the real estate business, profession and investing.  The one thing we all have in common is that we LOVE what we’re doing and love the real estate industry.  Doing something 4, 6,8, 10 or 24 hours a day that you don’t particularly like doesn’t work.  Even in the off chance you make money doing it, or even become rich, you become such a miserable person that it’s just not worth it.  If real estate doesn’t “turn you on”, and you still believe it’s a good investment, then invest in VERY passive real estate investment, like the Vanguard Real Estate Fund. 

[James Hamling]

GRIT....

I believe it all, everything, boils down to WHO has more Grit, you or life. And there is no alternative options. 

Either you have MORE grit, and are the one wearing down life to shape into you're design....

Or life is grinding down you. 

That's it, that's all. Anyone can "fight" this as much as they can "fight" the sun rising or setting. Some things just ARE. 

And Grit is just busted up "hard stuff" that stuck, becomes part of you, a new layer, that you can do nothing with, or put to work for ya. 

If this nation continues AWAY from an appreciation and pursuit to and through what is difficult, hard, painful....    I fear the suffering to come from refusing the journey of "pain". 

[Jim K.]

Quote from @James Hamling:

GRIT....

I believe it all, everything, boils down to WHO has more Grit, you or life. And there is no alternative options. 

Either you have MORE grit, and are the one wearing down life to shape into you're design....

Or life is grinding down you. 

That's it, that's all. Anyone can "fight" this as much as they can "fight" the sun rising or setting. Some things just ARE. 

And Grit is just busted up "hard stuff" that stuck, becomes part of you, a new layer, that you can do nothing with, or put to work for ya. 

If this nation continues AWAY from an appreciation and pursuit to and through what is difficult, hard, painful....    I fear the suffering to come from refusing the journey of "pain". 

I don't know about all that.

I honestly believe I was born to be a failure in life, and that's what I am in many ways. But I am OK with being a failure, even knowing it in my soul. I'm just not OK with the specific act of giving up. There is something in me that will not stop, that isn't even capable of stopping. I don't think that thing is grit. I've been beat down hard too many times to call it that. And I've just regrouped and come back enough to know that regrouping and coming back are a lot more possible than what they seem to be in our worst moments, and that experience, sure, that's a personal resource.

Perhaps it's just a sickness.

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Jim K.:

Quote from @James Hamling:

GRIT....

I believe it all, everything, boils down to WHO has more Grit, you or life. And there is no alternative options. 

Either you have MORE grit, and are the one wearing down life to shape into you're design....

Or life is grinding down you. 

That's it, that's all. Anyone can "fight" this as much as they can "fight" the sun rising or setting. Some things just ARE. 

And Grit is just busted up "hard stuff" that stuck, becomes part of you, a new layer, that you can do nothing with, or put to work for ya. 

If this nation continues AWAY from an appreciation and pursuit to and through what is difficult, hard, painful....    I fear the suffering to come from refusing the journey of "pain". 

I don't know about all that.

I honestly believe I was born to be a failure in life, and that's what I am in many ways. But I am OK with being a failure, even knowing it in my soul. I'm just not OK with the specific act of giving up. There is something in me that will not stop, that isn't even capable of stopping. I don't think that thing is grit. I've been beat down hard too many times to call it that. And I've just regrouped and come back enough to know that regrouping and coming back are a lot more possible than what they seem to be in our worst moments, and that experience, sure, that's a personal resource.

Perhaps it's just a sickness.

[Peter W.]

We can forget what it can be like to no nothing. When I bought my first house (primary) I needed a lot of hand holding. Backed out of one contract mainly due to cold feet. When I bought my first investment property it was much easier on my real estate agent (and me) primarily because I had rebuilt the kitchen and bath in my primary by myself. I had repainted the floors felt with hot water heaters and broken hvac systems. 

Writing the first lease was difficult because I didn’t know how to protect myself. Fortunately there are lots of good resources.

This business isn’t particular complicated, but when you don’t know it, it’s hard to know where to start. It’s especially unhelpful because there are many people trying to fleece inexperienced investors.

[Jim K.]

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Jim K.:

Quote from @James Hamling:

GRIT....

I believe it all, everything, boils down to WHO has more Grit, you or life. And there is no alternative options. 

Either you have MORE grit, and are the one wearing down life to shape into you're design....

Or life is grinding down you. 

That's it, that's all. Anyone can "fight" this as much as they can "fight" the sun rising or setting. Some things just ARE. 

And Grit is just busted up "hard stuff" that stuck, becomes part of you, a new layer, that you can do nothing with, or put to work for ya. 

If this nation continues AWAY from an appreciation and pursuit to and through what is difficult, hard, painful....    I fear the suffering to come from refusing the journey of "pain". 

I don't know about all that.

I honestly believe I was born to be a failure in life, and that's what I am in many ways. But I am OK with being a failure, even knowing it in my soul. I'm just not OK with the specific act of giving up. There is something in me that will not stop, that isn't even capable of stopping. I don't think that thing is grit. I've been beat down hard too many times to call it that. And I've just regrouped and come back enough to know that regrouping and coming back are a lot more possible than what they seem to be in our worst moments, and that experience, sure, that's a personal resource.

Perhaps it's just a sickness.

 Well, yeah.

[Jim K.]

Quote from @Peter W.:

We can forget what it can be like to no nothing. When I bought my first house (primary) I needed a lot of hand holding. Backed out of one contract mainly due to cold feet. When I bought my first investment property it was much easier on my real estate agent (and me) primarily because I had rebuilt the kitchen and bath in my primary by myself. I had repainted the floors felt with hot water heaters and broken hvac systems. 

Writing the first lease was difficult because I didn’t know how to protect myself. Fortunately there are lots of good resources.

This business isn’t particular complicated, but when you don’t know it, it’s hard to know where to start. It’s especially unhelpful because there are many people trying to fleece inexperienced investors.

Very true. It would be nice if there weren't so many sharks circling and it wasn't so easy to feel like you were chum in the water!

[Michael P.]

As a newbie myself, I am grateful for people like you. I currently own a food truck/restaurant and real estate is my next career move. I only say this because when I let people try my food it does me a disservice if people "fake" enjoy it. I prefer brutal honesty. For example, maybe I let 10 people try a new menu item. If all of them taste it and its too salty, but they don't want to hurt my feelings so they jus tell me "it's good!" then that actually hurts me instead of helps me. Next thing you know my customer base writes bad reviews, stops coming, etc. You get the idea. 

Give me the brutal truth, always. Not all of us have paper thin skin. When someone gives me a negative review on something I've made, I thank them for the honest feedback and take it into consideration. 

Next Step: Adjust accordingly. Sometimes people don't know what they're talking about. But once something is said it must be considered and thought about objectively. 

Looking forward to joining this community of meanies and bullies....hahaha

[Jim K.]

Quote from @Michael P.:

As a newbie myself, I am grateful for people like you. I currently own a food truck/restaurant and real estate is my next career move. I only say this because when I let people try my food it does me a disservice if people "fake" enjoy it. I prefer brutal honesty. For example, maybe I let 10 people try a new menu item. If all of them taste it and its too salty, but they don't want to hurt my feelings so they jus tell me "it's good!" then that actually hurts me instead of helps me. Next thing you know my customer base writes bad reviews, stops coming, etc. You get the idea. 

Give me the brutal truth, always. Not all of us have paper thin skin. When someone gives me a negative review on something I've made, I thank them for the honest feedback and take it into consideration. 

Next Step: Adjust accordingly. Sometimes people don't know what they're talking about. But once something is said it must be considered and thought about objectively. 

Looking forward to joining this community of meanies and bullies....hahaha

Exactly! It's just an opinion, one opinion, about the food! We have not employed the Divine Alembic to separate your soul from your body and deliver the Culinary Judgment of Ages upon you!  

[Ashley Madalone]

As a beginner, I am thankful for the "reality check" of the forums!  Otherwise, the training materials such as books, podcasts, webinars, etc. are so floofy and sugar-coated that I most definitely could have accidentally jumped off a cliff! LOL. Also, a lot of the live investors in my market are just gatekeepers, too busy and competitive to really want to help me out. Through reading and trying to participate in the forums, I am able to create a more realistic plan, budget, and mindset of how to get started in real estate investing. Thanks!

[Eric Gerakos]

Quote from @Jim K.:

Quote from @Michael P.:

As a newbie myself, I am grateful for people like you. I currently own a food truck/restaurant and real estate is my next career move. I only say this because when I let people try my food it does me a disservice if people "fake" enjoy it. I prefer brutal honesty. For example, maybe I let 10 people try a new menu item. If all of them taste it and its too salty, but they don't want to hurt my feelings so they jus tell me "it's good!" then that actually hurts me instead of helps me. Next thing you know my customer base writes bad reviews, stops coming, etc. You get the idea. 

Give me the brutal truth, always. Not all of us have paper thin skin. When someone gives me a negative review on something I've made, I thank them for the honest feedback and take it into consideration. 

Next Step: Adjust accordingly. Sometimes people don't know what they're talking about. But once something is said it must be considered and thought about objectively. 

Looking forward to joining this community of meanies and bullies....hahaha

Exactly! It's just an opinion, one opinion, about the food! We have not employed the Divine Alembic to separate your soul from your body and deliver the Culinary Judgment of Ages upon you!  

 Jim K, the only BP poster who would ever use the term, “Divine Alembic.” I appreciate you Jim!!!!

[Theresa Harris]

Quote from @Peter W.:

We can forget what it can be like to no nothing. When I bought my first house (primary) I needed a lot of hand holding. Backed out of one contract mainly due to cold feet. When I bought my first investment property it was much easier on my real estate agent (and me) primarily because I had rebuilt the kitchen and bath in my primary by myself. I had repainted the floors felt with hot water heaters and broken hvac systems. 

Writing the first lease was difficult because I didn’t know how to protect myself. Fortunately there are lots of good resources.

This business isn’t particular complicated, but when you don’t know it, it’s hard to know where to start. It’s especially unhelpful because there are many people trying to fleece inexperienced investors.

I agree it is easy to forget what you didn't know when you started, but at the same time with all the online resources that are freely available, it just takes a bit of time of a newbie doing a search for a topic and reading through what they find.  

My biggest complaint about some people is they don't want to put in the effort to try and find the answers on their own before asking a question.  There are so many new posts on BP about the same topic (eg tenant didn't pay rent or tenant is late on rent, what do I do).  They could use the search function and find the answer.  Even if the question was asked by someone elsewhere, many responses are check your local laws which should direct the person to the right source of information.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Quote from @Eric Gerakos:

Quote from @Jim K.:

Quote from @Michael P.:

As a newbie myself, I am grateful for people like you. I currently own a food truck/restaurant and real estate is my next career move. I only say this because when I let people try my food it does me a disservice if people "fake" enjoy it. I prefer brutal honesty. For example, maybe I let 10 people try a new menu item. If all of them taste it and its too salty, but they don't want to hurt my feelings so they jus tell me "it's good!" then that actually hurts me instead of helps me. Next thing you know my customer base writes bad reviews, stops coming, etc. You get the idea. 

Give me the brutal truth, always. Not all of us have paper thin skin. When someone gives me a negative review on something I've made, I thank them for the honest feedback and take it into consideration. 

Next Step: Adjust accordingly. Sometimes people don't know what they're talking about. But once something is said it must be considered and thought about objectively. 

Looking forward to joining this community of meanies and bullies....hahaha

Exactly! It's just an opinion, one opinion, about the food! We have not employed the Divine Alembic to separate your soul from your body and deliver the Culinary Judgment of Ages upon you!  

 Jim K, the only BP poster who would ever use the term, “Divine Alembic.” I appreciate you Jim!!!!

I have to look that up in the dictionary. As I do with many pearls Jim throws out there.. :)

[Jonathan Greene]

Quote from @Peter W.:

We can forget what it can be like to no nothing. When I bought my first house (primary) I needed a lot of hand holding. Backed out of one contract mainly due to cold feet. When I bought my first investment property it was much easier on my real estate agent (and me) primarily because I had rebuilt the kitchen and bath in my primary by myself. I had repainted the floors felt with hot water heaters and broken hvac systems. 

Writing the first lease was difficult because I didn’t know how to protect myself. Fortunately there are lots of good resources.

This business isn’t particular complicated, but when you don’t know it, it’s hard to know where to start. It’s especially unhelpful because there are many people trying to fleece inexperienced investors.

This is one of the main points-counterpoints. "It’s especially unhelpful because there are many people trying to fleece inexperienced investors"

Someone will call me mean because I tell them to ask better questions, but then they are the ripest of fruit for the click funnel coming their way because they will yes them to death.

Honesty is a way of saving people from the mistakes a lot of us have made. If the would rather get guru'd, they will be back here posting about that in 6 months, too.

[Jim K.]

@Jonathan Greene

That's exactly what I was thinking all through the crackpot initial person exchange in your thread. The gurus just make money by stroking your ego all day long and telling you that you can do anything you set your mind to. I've told this story a dozen times here on BP, but it bears repeating.

A few years ago, I went to a very well known three-day guru seminar. We were supposed to learn how to flip houses on the last day. So in the middle of the session, without a word of warning, the seminar leader calls for volunteers to come on stage. Once he gets people up there, he tells them they're going to do a dance-off.

Yes, it happens. The winner of the dance-off is congratulated and told that they don't need to worry about flipping houses. They did a dance-off! In front of all these people! Of course they can handle a silly little flip!

And that was how we were taught how to flip a house.

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Jim K.:

@Jonathan Greene

That's exactly what I was thinking all through the crackpot initial person exchange in your thread. The gurus just make money by stroking your ego all day long and telling you that you can do anything you set your mind to. I've told this story a dozen times here on BP, but it bears repeating.

A few years ago, I went to a very well known three-day guru seminar. We were supposed to learn how to flip houses on the last day. So in the middle of the session, without a word of warning, the seminar leader calls for volunteers to come on stage. Once he gets people up there, he tells them they're going to do a dance-off.

Yes, it happens. The winner of the dance-off is congratulated and told that they don't need to worry about flipping houses. They did a dance-off! In front of all these people! Of course they can handle a silly little flip!

And that was how we were taught how to flip a house.

Real Estate knowledge is just the medium. What there real true product is, that they are selling is HOPE. They are "Hopeium" dealers. 

It's a standard format: 

Some person, all "cool" get's put front and center after a small number of "minions" first warms up the audience and exudes cult like reverence and obsession with the "Guru". 

The "Guru" talks down statements of grandiosity. "Yeah, I'm just a guy like anyone else, so I have a private jet, forget the Lambo and solid gold toilet, whatever, there just things, I'm an average Joe who found out....". 

And that's the hook, the "gateway" taste of "Hopeium", that there is some secret, ooohhh, aaahhh, the secret. 

But, "oh wow" there now with mission in life to give away the secret to everyone and anyone! 

Buuuutttt, to make sure your serious, or to this that and the other excuse, there is "just" this fee for entry, for the "secret"..... 

And once in, this cycle repeats over n over n over. 

Why? because each time hit with realization of the BS, the whole game is rigged that it's not BS, it's just you havn't gotten to that other thing, that next level, that other access, and it keeps ya going layer after layer after fee after membership. 

It is a roadmap on how to make a junkie. A "Hopeium" junkie. So busy chasing that next "hit of Hopeium" that all common sense is neutered. 

because common sense would be that this guy, this "Guru" does diddly squat real estate, his whole thing is the cult, slinging "Hopeium". And yeah, he now uses your $ to buy his real estate....... 

[V.G Jason]

The only thing I can add to this, is this is the only place I can voice my opinion, views, thoughts with no recourse. I don't take anything personal when I go at someone's views, opinions, thoughts or someone's differ then mines. Except they are ****ing wrong. 

But when you operate a lot of different businesses, entities in all different industries, you'll learn very quickly you need to only bite, can't really bark, and your time is of essence. This is more of a great sounding board, but I have become a REI fanboy too and thoroughly enjoy it. It's my little time away zone when I am in a flight.