Mold: How much to discount?

[Jim Mootrey]

I am in the due diligence period on a short sale. The inspector found mold in multiple places in the finished basement. The house has been empty since July and the utilities were turned off. I think that is the source of the mold. It is not an extreme case: If you did not know what to look for, you would not even see it. But it will need to be dealt with and will get worse between now and the closing. The closing will not happen until at least January. I am fairly confident i can remove the mold for under $5,000.

How much would you ask as a discount? Assume any other issues have been accounted for in the original offer. We are talking a 2 bath 3 bedroom SF in the $140,000 range.

Thanks

[Brandon Turner]

Hey @Jim Mootrey - will you being doing the work yourself or hiring it out? I would imaging I'd just ask for a discount of whatever a good contractor would charge to fix it all. $5k seems more than enough to me for a bottle of bleach water and a could minutes of time! (unless there is some drywall damage, but still.)

Thoughts?

[Matt Danver]

I agree with @Brandon Turner on this one. If it's so small that the untrained eye could miss it then it is probably something that can be treated with off the shelf products at a big box store. Easily under $1,000 more than likely, so $5,000 is definitely safe. Good Luck!

[Simon Campbell]

The question here is are you will to risk losing this short sale purchase because of less than $5k (probably closer to $1k) worth of mold? If it is not a huge life threatening hazard or covering a wall in the main area of the home, I highly doubt that the lender (who sounds like is already dragging their feet) will agree to lower the price (which will only start the approval process all over and delay your closing).

My advice? Pick your battles.

[Rick Baggenstoss]

PM me and I'll give you a mold experts name. He can give you an estimate you can submit, if you're going for the discount. An expert can be great because you'll get a warranty.

However, all of the Atlanta houses left vacant over the summer have mold. It was a crazy summer of rain. If it's the white, dusty stuff, then you just need to wipe it off, run the AC, etc. It's easy to clear out. I'm more familiar with the houses with crawl spaces. You might find some other finished basement buyers.

The issue is the moisture in the finished basement which caused the mold is what would concern me more. You'll need to make sure this was an anomaly, not a leak in the basement, inadequate pump, waterproofing issue, drainage issue, etc. Fixing the root cause may be the more costly issue.

[Phil Z.]

If its a real mold problem then you will have to provide a mold disclosure when you resell and state that you corrected the problem. The buyer may then request to have a professional mold test done by a hygienist. If that comes back positive, your wallet could be in a world of hurt.

Also a lot of lenders wont allow for repair credits to the buyer (sometimes directly to a contractor), so you could put the sale in jepardy.

[Sean Kuhn]

There are many different kinds of mold issues. First find the source of the moisture problem, if its simply lack of ac/heat/air movement and a dehumidifier that's an easy fix. Burst plumbing is another issue. By the sound of it your mold is just superficial. Clean it with hydrogen peroxide and paint over it with an oil based primer paint. That should take care of your problem.

@Brandon Turner As a side note bleach is not recommended(though wives tales say otherwise) and doesn't kill the mold. Hydrogen peroxide is the best.

[Pete T.]

@Sean Kuhn, bleach works, a good friend of mine owns a mold remediation company and has told me most surface mold can be removed simply using a bleach base and I have used it in a similar situation (vacant home owned by a bank.

[Ed Wood]

Submit your estimate to the sellers lender requesting the discount and see if they offer it. I had a short sale where we got 3 estimates for termite damage averaged 14k we gave the sellers lender all 3 estimates and they did not care said the price was the price take it or leave it.

[Pete T.]

yeah @Ed wood, i see a lot of that w/ banks in my area and i dont like dealing w/ them. its amazing how much money they lose letting a place get rundown.

[Travis West]

@Pete Thomas, @Brandon Turner and @Sean Kuhn.

I have to agree with Sean on this one.

The use of bleach to disinfect mold contaminated areas is an old wives tale and is one that we in the Mold consulting community used to tell folks ... until we learned the truth.

Look at the contents of the bleach you buy in the store. It's about 3-5% sodium hypochlorite and 95-97% water. What we found was that while we did kill (maybe) 30% of the spores, we were putting water on the rest. Why in the heck would we want to put water on mold?!

There are a number of other products - and hydrogen peroxide is one of those - that will work much better.

The other thing to remember is that the sodium hypochlorite in bleach is an oxidizer. If used too heavily, you can cause rusting or other oxidation issues to electrical connections, wiring, etc.

If you follow some of the best guidance out there - provided by the US EPA - you will use a simple solution of mild soap (dish-soap) and water and lightly wipe the walls clean. After removing any hyphal discoloration, allow them to properly dry and then treat the walls with Kilz or Fosters brand antimicrobial paint. It's a good primer too!

I have run into mold remediation contractors all across the country who still use bleach on client projects. It's a hazard to the applicators, to the homeowners, and to the home's mechanical and electrical systems. Normally, when we find a remediator who uses bleach, we know that they are not "up to speed" with the latest and best techniques. In fact, we often consider them the type of people to avoid when we want the job done correctly (and safely).

Just my 2 cents worth!

Travis West

CIEC (Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant); American Council of Accredited Certifications
MAC0325 (Licensed Mold Assessment Consultant; Texas Department of State Health Services)

[Simon Campbell]

Regarding bleach, I have lived in the subtropics for many years and bleach is one of my main ways to stem the growth of mold. Using 100% bleach, however, does just the opposite. For some reason it does not kill the mold. But, a 10 - 15% bleach solution to water will do the trick. I put it in a spray bottle and apply it once for several days - mold gone. I will try the hydrogen peroxide to see how that works. Do you guys use it straight or thin it down?

[Sean Kuhn]

@Simon Campbell

I've thinned it to about half with water. I'm curious if this effects it at all, but it seemed to work fine.

[Travis West]

@Simon Campbell.

Spraying any solution onto a reservoir of mold spores is one more of those things that we (you) should never do. While some portion of the spores do get wet and perhaps die, the spraying action causes many of those spores to become airborne ... only to move on to another surface.

If you can imagine what the spores would do if you chose to spray them with compressed air - then you can imagine how much the same thing would occur by spraying a water solution on the surface.

Sure, some of the spores do get wet, but many more (and remember that spores are too small to see with the naked eye) become airborne.

The solution (as I referenced in the EPA document) is to wet a rag, wipe the surface, turn the rag, wipe the surface, turn the rag, etc. Always wipe the surface with a clean portion of the rag, and rinse the rag out when it becomes dirty.

Travis West

[Karen Margrave]

@Travis West Since you're the expert here, wouldn't it be necessary to test the mold to determine the type of mold spores? What are the differences in treatment for various mold or is there? What types of disclosures, etc. are required, and do they vary by state or is there a national standard?

It would seem to me that for all of those that treat mold themselves, should it come back down the road, they can be held liable for huge lawsuits should someone get sick. The price of having someone that specializes in mold do the inspection etc. would be wise.

[Travis West]

@Karen Margrave.

Although there are different types (genus and species) of molds, the methods to manage or remove them do not vary. In fact, regardless of the type of mold we see, we use similar methods to get rid of them.

WHAT ABOUT DIFFERENT MOLD TYPES

Toxic black mold is all the rage. Everybody seems to fear that. They don't seem to have the same level of concerns when it's grey or green, fuzzy or not. But the facts are that ALL MOLDS create toxins. These toxins are generated by the mold as a defense mechanism. Some molds even create the toxins to kill other molds ... thereby allowing them to invade the 2nd mold's territory. (Yes, I'm saying that molds even value the real estate held by it's peers!) Some people claim that the toxins from Stachybotrys (black) mold affect their central nervous systems, making them sick. But, when you find Stachybotrys molds, you also find many, many other types as well. Who knows which toxins are affecting people.

MOLD REMOVAL

The method to remove molds varies by the total area affected - not by the genus or species of mold present. Small areas can be easily wiped away and treated. Larger areas might need to be cut out. Even large ones require containment (plastic walls) and expensive equipment designed to capture airborne spores.

An example might be: 45 sq. ft of mold along a perimeter wall (dining room, living room wall adjoining the outside of the house). This type of damage would likely require setting up a containment, placing that containment under a negative pressure (to capture spores and dust during demo) and doing a controlled demolition - usually by professionals.

In contrast, a small area of perhaps 4 sq. ft. may only require that you wipe the mold colonies (fuzzy stuff) away from the surface and treat with Kilz or similar paint. It may not even require removing any drywall.

NOTICE: These procedures are the same whether the 45 sq.ft. of mold was black, brown, green, grey, red or yellow.

TESTING THE AIR - BEFORE OR AFTER

There is really only one reason you'd need to test before you tear out mold damage. That would be if you think a tenant is going to an attorney. Then, you might want specific mold genus information for your defense (in the future). In fact, in those types of cases, we usually recommend that consultants (who do the testing) be hired by your attorney. That way the results are protected by the Attorney/Client privilege.

If you do any remediation/tear-out, testing can confirm that the air is clean (after the work is done). People who choose to do the work themselves, can often cause more problems by not properly containing the molds during tear-out. Post work air testing can confirm whether it's been done right or not.

Yes, there are advantages to using a consultant who specializes in mold. They carry general and professional liability insurance. That means that if they "miss the mark" in their estimation or they "misdiagnose" any part of your project, you have a way of recourse. You should never sue your helpful, friendly, knowledgeable, and sometimes w.o.r.d.y. mold consultant, but they have insurance ... just in case you do.

STATE STANDARDS

Some states license consultants and remediators. Most don't. Some states require that these companies ONLY have a business license. You'd have to check with your local (county) or state health department to make sure.

States that have some measure of guidelines include Texas, Florida, and New York. While I know that a number of states are trying to come up with licensing guidelines, I do not stay up to date on which states or when.

DISCLOSURES

Many state real estate boards have a mold disclosure form. When listing a home with a real estate agent, one of the questions that must be asked is whether there was a mold problem. If the homeowner (seller) says yes, then the real estate agent must bring out that disclosure form which must be completed. That then becomes part of the sales documents.

INSURING A MOLD HOME

In Texas (which is the only state I have knowledge of) there is a special MDR-1 form created by the Department of Insurance. When a mold remediation job is done, that form is completed by the mold consultant and the remediator and clearly states that; a) mold was found, b) a scope to remove it was created, c) it was removed consistent with the aforementioned scope, and d) the mold problem and the reason it occurred (roof leak, plumbing leak, condensation, etc.) has been repaired. Once the MDR-1 form has been signed by the mold professionals, that's given to the homeowner. That single - signed - form is designed to guarantee that the home cannot be denied insurance because of prior mold problems.

I don't know if other states have this option or not.

I hope that helps.

Travis West

CIEC (Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant); American Council of Accredited Certifications
MAC0325 (Licensed Mold Assessment Consultant; Texas Department of State Health Services)

[Phil Z.]

You need to test before doing the remediation to see if their is TOXIC MOLD present. If there is, the remediation has to be handled by professionals and the work has to be extremely thorough. The hygienist who does the initial testing also writes up the scope of work for the remediation company to complete.

Keep in mind that if the house does test positive for Toxic Mold, it will have to be disclosed on resale (even after remediation) and most people will not want to step foot in the house.

It's about $550 for a professional mold test.

[Rick Baggenstoss]

@Jim Mootrey What did you decide to do?

[Andrew S.]

@Travis West said

"Look at the contents of the bleach you buy in the store. It's about 3-5% sodium hypochlorite and 95-97% water. What we found was that while we did kill (maybe) 30% of the spores, we were putting water on the rest. Why in the heck would we want to put water on mold?!

There are a number of other products - and hydrogen peroxide is one of those - that will work much better.

The other thing to remember is that the sodium hypochlorite in bleach is an oxidizer. If used too heavily, you can cause rusting or other oxidation issues to electrical connections, wiring, etc.

If you follow some of the best guidance out there - provided by the US EPA - you will use a simple solution of mild soap (dish-soap) and water and lightly wipe the walls clean. After removing any hyphal discoloration, allow them to properly dry and then treat the walls with Kilz or Fosters brand antimicrobial paint. It's a good primer too!

I have run into mold remediation contractors all across the country who still use bleach on client projects. It's a hazard to the applicators, to the homeowners, and to the home's mechanical and electrical systems. Normally, when we find a remediator who uses bleach, we know that they are not "up to speed" with the latest and best techniques. In fact, we often consider them the type of people to avoid when we want the job done correctly (and safely)."

-------------------------------------------

I have a follow-up question to your comments above about bleach. I have heard that same information from other mold experts too, so I'm sure you guys have figured out what works and what doesn't. However, while I understand part of the rationale for not using water-based bleach (because water encourages mold growth), isn't hydrogen peroxide also simply a water-based solution? Also, it is true that bleach is an oxidizer, but so is hydrogen peroxide. This is very confusing to me!

Finally, the soapy water you use to clean up the mold is also just that: water. So if bleach alone is somehow a problem, couldn't you just add some soap to the bleach so that you get a better surfactant? In fact, this is exactly what I use successfully to scrub my wooden deck (before re-sealing) or my outdoor brick surfaces, when moss growth takes place.

Any thoughts?

[James Sinclair]

I am under the impression that mold spores are everywhere. On the evening news here they provide a mold count for people with allergies. If you have a property has no access to outside air, all air on the inside is filtered with fine enough filters to remove all spores, then you will have a mold free house. If these are not the conditions for your house, all you need to have mold is the right conditions, and air. If this is not true in your area I would be interested in how the biology works there.

[Sam Leon]

Last time I had a mold test done was at a property that had NO visible mold (I didn't see any black moldy spots on the walls) but there was an exterior wall that the sheet rock was warpped and bulged and I can feel the wall surface was slightly damp, and electric was off for months due to bank not paying the bills.

The tester tested air samples in different areas of the house. At the location where I suspect there may be mold, upstairs, entrance, backdoor, outside, in each bathroom etc...and they have a "control" sample.

Big difference in various areas of the house. They tested for Cladosporium,

Other Ascospores, Other Basidiospores, Penicillium/Aspergillus, Smuts, myxomycetes, Stachybotrys, Unidentified Spores etc...and all other areas showed nothing significant, but the downstairs kitchen wall showed 1,300 spores per cubic meter of Penicillium/Aspergillus and 140,000 spores per cubic meters of Stachybotrys which is the toxic black mold. The kitchen is literally 15 feet away from another test area and that showed nothing so it definitely is concentrated and localized. But once you turn your AC or fan on I am guessing all bets are off.

[Travis West]

@Andrew S.

You raise some good questions. Unfortunately, my background is in mechanical engineering and the questions you are posing are ideally for some with a chemical engineering background.

MIXING SOAP AND BLEACH

You thoughts on using soap with bleach make sense ... but I have always learned to work on the KISS principle. Mixing soap (which is a chemical) with bleach (which is also a chemical) could create some other "unknown and uncontrolled" substance that could be extremely harmful to products or people. Now you'd ask me ... which products? Which soaps, etc.? I can't tell you exactly. I can only speculate because I don't recommend it and I don't do it. Just know that the compounds in dish soaps vary from brand to brand. Consequently, the "chemical soup" that you'd create by mixing one brand with bleach would likely be very different than the soup you'd create when mixing bleach with another brand.

PROBLEMS CAN HAPPEN

I can offer this one example that a peer related to me a couple of years ago. His instructions to a maintenance engineer in a very large building was to use bleach to clean some very contaminated metal pipe fittings. These fittings were under the sink in a 30 story office building. He directed the engineer to wet a rag with a bleach/water solution and wipe the piping clean. They were trying to eliminate the possibility of bacteria from a previous leak under the sink. As I understood it, the directions to the engineer on the product and method were very specific. Now, knowing that bleach was good, and realizing also that ammonia is used as a disinfectant, the engineer was ready to mix them together and clean the piping. Fortunately, my friend revisited the building about 5 minutes before the engineer began his mixing/cleaning process. Had this mixture NOT been avoided, it would likely have killed or severely impacted every person on the 18th floor and may have affected others on adjoining floors. These 3 floors had about 400 people on them.

My point here is that I (personally) and most of my peers - choose to avoid the use of harmful chemicals at any point possible. Sure, you and your closest 50 friends are not harmed by exposure to bleach. What if you opened a bottle and started using it when that one person (in 50) who WAS reactive was nearby?

THE USE OF OXIDIZERS

Using bleach will (almost) always leave a residual. That residual produce can continue to cause oxidation to occur on metal surfaces, electrical wiring, galvanized studs, nails, etc.

Using hydrogen peroxide doesn't leave a residual. I can not explain the chemical process, but that is what has been explained, demonstrated, and drilled into me by countless educators.

Using bleach to "kill mold" usually means that the user plans to saturate a surface with bleach. Saturating a surface with a mixture of water and sodium hypochlorite REALLY sounds to me like they are going to "saturate the surface." That's why we don't like the use of bleach.

The use of soap and water asks the user to saturate the rag and wring it out. Next, you wipe the surface, turn the rag to a clean location, wipe the surface, turn the rag, wipe the surface, etc. The purpose of soap and water is NOT to saturate the walls. Rather, the soap increases the surfactantcy of the water (makes it wetter) and that allows a damp rag to better pick up mold spores, hyphal fragments, mold pieces, etc. Hence, this is the more effective method. It removes the mold better and does not saturate the wall.

SURFACTANTCY TIPS

Although this is not the purpose of my whole response, I'd like to share a brief tip that I learned from a painter years ago. It involves a BETTER METHOD to remove latex paint from brushes, rollers, and other paint tools when you're done for the day.

1) buy some liquid fabric softener

2) pour about 1/2 a cup into a 2-3 gallon pail of water

3) place your "paint loaded" brush into the water solution

4) actively move your brush to agitate the water for 10-20 seconds

5) remove your brush and briskly shake it to remove the water

6) note that there is NO paint left in or on your brush

NOTE: This is because the fabric softener dramatically increases the surfactantcy of the water. It makes the size of the water droplets dozens (or maybe hundreds) of times smaller. These smaller water droplets do a much better job cleaning your brush and help to remove paint in the smallest recesses of the brush, roller pad, etc. The embedded latex paint doesn't stand a chance when confronted with these hyper-small water droplets.

SURFACTANTCY WORKS FOR MOLD TOO

So my point in the surfactantcy example above is that when you use dish soap (which also increases the surfactantcy of water) you are able to pick up MORE of the smaller mold compounds (spores, hyphal fragments, etc.) without using a lot of "liquid live water" and without saturating the wall - as you do with bleach. This is why soap and water works so well. It's designed to remove mold without using a lot of water!

_________________

As I said earlier, I advise AGAINST anybody creating custom compounds by mixing soap and bleach. This is because I am not a chemical engineer and because I do not know what new (and potentially dangerous) compounds you might be creating.

_________________

Besides, my professional liability insurance does not cover me for suggestions outside of my professional training.

Travis West

Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant - CIEC #0609003; Board Certified by the American Council of Accredited Certification

Licensed Mold Assessment Consultant; MAC0325; Texas Department of State Health Services