All Forum Posts by: Sam Leon

Just want to post an update on this discussion.

In the last few weeks I conducted two mold tests.

First was a DIY Home Depot air quality mold test kit.  I bought 4 test kits and instructions says expose the provided solutions in different areas for 1 hour (I exposed them to 2 hours) followed by incubation for 48 hours (I waited 96 hours) and nothing.  I knew these tests are practically useless but wanted to do a first test anyways.

I then contacted a mold testing company who gave me a quote to test 4 samples in the apartment plus one exterior sample as a baseline for $650.  When I asked how much to test all the apartments it was only $150 additional so I ordered the test for all apartments, came back negative.

Now, I knew these tests are quite useless in a sense that if mold tested positive, it doesn't mean the presence of mold is the cause of the issue.  On the flip side, the lack of mold also does not mean the issue is not caused directly or indirectly by something at the property.  I released the test reports to all the tenants indicating the all clear for this precaution mold test.

Nonetheless, I offered the tenant a chance to break the lease before the end of July with no penalty and he said he loves the apartment and wanted to stay...However, I am at a point where kind of wanting to break it off, so if he decides not to move on, I will decline to renew come December, because if there is a perceived health issue, this will not end, and I am not going to test for whatever may be suspected be it radon gas, or asbestos, or lead based paint, or whatever.  The question now is when it comes time to renew, do I just make up some excuses to not renew or do I explain this incident being the trigger.

Quote from @Alec Boe:

Quote from @Sam Leon:

Quote from @Alec Boe:

There are a couple ways this can go. I have dealt with this multiple times and you have a few options. 

One, if you test for mold as the interior of the home is so cold its condensing moisture in the air -particularly the HVAC Handler closet. If the licensed mold inspector indicates mold that is dangerous you could post a 7 Day Notice of Termination due to Mold. Please be sure the notice you post does comply with state law and your lease. My leases have an addendum within them as well regarding 7 Day Notices. Please note this is a gross simplification/summary and it depends case by case how you handle it.

Also, you can reach out to the tenant to offer them to move out and maybe throw in some incentives. 

Final option would be to Non-Renew the tenant. If nothing you can do works or can satisfy this tenant (I would say it is safe to say you went above and beyond already) your best bet is getting them out. 

All the AC Techs I have spoke with said the HVAC unit is meant to create around a 20 degree difference from exterior to interior. We are in Florida, 95 to 62 is rough for the unit. Cannot imagine their utility bill. 

In summary, these kinds of tenants are not all that common, but when you acquire one, there is usually no way to satisfy their demands. They are best suited to own their own home. If you want to discuss more in detail I am happy to help!

Yes AC is tough in Florida.  Fortunately most Floridian tenants are aware and know that you can't be setting the thermostat to 60 when the outside is 100 and expect miracles.  Most transplants from northern states tend to do this and are understanding when I explain and now I have a section in my tenant's rule book on this subject.

I am happy to let him walk and end the lease, but I wonder if I need to proceed with mold testing regardless just to prove that this property is mold free because he raised a health concern.

If I just offer to break the lease even if he moves on he can come back 3 months later saying he has been coughing and sneezing since and it all started when he was residing here.

since this is an apartment with other units, I am also concerned about tenant chatters.  My tenants are always happy and if I offer for him to break the lease and he moves, there is a high likelihood of "well I am moving out and it seems there is dangerous molds and owner won't do anything about it and if I were you I would be extra careful about having molds in your units too" and causes other tenants to be concerned.  I do not discuss a tenant's affairs with another tenant so it's not like I can explain the situation to everybody and I shouldn't have to anyway, but it is a concern because one I cannot defend myself if this happens and two other tenants may get the idea that hey I can move out without penalty just say I think there is mold (or anything else).

First you should get that mold test done soon if mold is being seriously questioned. They are not cheap, typically running $300-$500 at least around CFL. What to do exactly depends on how the tenant has been thus far, more so the language they've used. If it sounds like they are laying the groundwork to sue you then it would make sense to work to get them out as soon as possible. Examples, "my child is coughing and getting sick from mold", " I've developed symptoms my doctor says are from mold inhalation/exposure".

You want to keep communication in writing at this point (if relationship is sour/mold related), also document everything regarding vendors and more. You will want to show that you tested for mold in a reasonable amount of time along with making remediation repairs if they are needed soon & safely. I think you are doing a great job putting yourself in the tenants shoes and wondering what they will think and feel.

Friendly Disclaimer, I am NOT an attorney and this is not legal/civil advice but simply what I would consider and think about in this process as a property manager.

If you want to setup a time to discuss in more length I am happy to. Feel free to direct message me should you wish to. I feel like there are more details that are needed to be brought up to formulate a solid plan forward. 

 Yes I believe at this point I am forced to do something to clear the building of any mold allegations because tenants do talk to each other, and I wouldn't want someone to hear from someone that there is an apartment with mold infestation and also that the owner/manager did not take action to remediate the possibility of mold.

With that in mind, I think the mold testing to be done, needs to be building wide and not just that unit alone.  That way everyone is up to speed and informed as to whether there is a real issue to be concerned about or not.

On the other hand, I have had mold testing done before, when I was interested in an REO property that has electric and water turned off for months while the home sat vacant. I went inside with a flash light to look and it was very hot, muggy and had a bad smell. Obviously vacant homes has sewage smell from the drying up of the plumbing fixture traps but this is much worse. So I hired a company to come out for a mold test, I think that's in 2014 and it cost $450 and he took about 4 samples. The thing that made me hesitate about these mold tests are:

(1) The tech seems to indicate to me that they can "test for mold" or they can "test for mold", meaning that if I want to see mold in the report they can make sure there is mold in the report and it's all in how samples are collected.  Since I paid for the test they can tilt the results in a way to help me gain some negotiation leverage if I want to see say toxic Stachybotrys for example.

(2) I don't remember quite clearly but I think one sample was also taken outside the home, as the baseline to compare was that, in other words, if the outside shows the same mold concentration as the inside, than the inside is considered not moldy?

(3) There is also the argument from many who says molds are basically everywhere and there is no link between mold and sickness some claimed to be mold induced.  These mold testing companies do mold remediation using fear and scare tactics wearing hazmat suits and picking up every bit of the building materials with a tweezer bagging them in bio-hazard bags.

So right now I am thinking about how and who best to conduct a fair and unbiased mold test.  I heard that those DIY mold testing kits from home improvement stores are useless.

Quote from @Theresa Harris:

He should have a portable AC unit in his bedroom, but if they (the tenant) are causing damages/excessive wear and tear, do not renew their lease.  Give them notice and find a new tenant.

You can also tell them that they are clearly not happy here and can break the lease without any penalty and find a place that is better suited to them.

 I never thought of suggesting having a portable AC unit in the bedroom.  The only down side is that there needs to be an exhaust for the portable unit and typically this means one window cannot shut all the way closed and a piece of plastic or plywood be cut so that the remaining space is fitted with the exhaust flex pipe.  I don't know if this may create a security issue with one window essentially left 20% open but I can look into this.

I do think long term it's better to just let him walk without a termination penalty (or even some extra incentive from me).

Quote from @Wesley W.:

@Matthew Masoud and @Michele Fischer summed it up nicely.

Hopefully they are on a MTM and you can issue a notice to terminate.  If not, excersize "happy clause" and offer for them to break lease without penalty.  Couch this as a customer service gesture, not due to an issue or negligence on your part.

Unfortunately not on a MTM so either I wait till the lease ends not to renew (which is in another 5 months) or offer to terminate the lease without penalty (which I am happy to do to get rid of this headache).

First time dealing with a potential issue that may escalate.

Tenant has been difficult in terms of communication and access to maintain or repair.

Constant issues with central air.  Outside temperature is 95 or even 100, wants to set inside thermostat to 62, causes handler to work 24/7 non stop and eventually coil freezes, calls to complaint, explained that we are in Florida and there is a limit to how much cooling one can expect.  There are ceiling fans in each room for circulation.  I change the filter (custom merv 5) every month, tenant says unless it's set to low 60s can't sleep well, air is stuffy.  He tried to raise temperature to 65, but sets the fan to ON 24/7, says feel "kind of stuffy" otherwise.  I spoke to an AC company and the unit is 20 years old, works but not as efficient, so decided to change to a brand new system for over $8000 (pre COVID it's $3600 ouch).  The new unit is more efficient, tenant keeps fan to ON 24/7 set temperature to 62.  I had to go in every two weeks to change the filter now that air is moving non stop.

Fast forward a few months of quiet time, there is a main line drain blockage that happened on a Tuesday evening.  Water backed into the bathtub, and some seeped through the base of the toilet.  Had emergency plumber there on Wednesday morning, snaked 50' from the roof to the city lateral and cleared blockage.  Plumber did not pull back anything on the snake but feel it may have been a soft blockage.  The backup happened when someone did a load of laundry, water with suds drained out of the washing machine with pressure and hit the blockage and backed up into the tub and toilet.

Since the toilet was seeping water during the backup, wax seal was broken so I had the toilet pulled and reset.

Everything is back to normal on Wednesday afternoon.  Tenant told me Thursday there is probably mold behind the walls and everywhere from the backup, and he felt the house is kind of stuffy is probably an indication of toxic mold presence for however long he's been there.

There has been zero moisture penetration from roof leaks or plumbing leaks and no previous tenant ever complained about air quality.  The only moisture issues were (1) when the AC was kept on 24/7 causing the handler coil to freeze over, the freeze melting  dripped down into the filter and onto the floor inside the AC compartment.  That was cleaned up promptly, and (2) this recent drain blockage there was water in the tub and some water seep out from the base of the toilet.

I am thinking may be this is a situation that may escalate if not dealt with properly.

I could use a moisture meter to test for moisture behind drywalls and baseboards.

I could also do some mold tests at different parts of the house especially the bathrooms and send out to have samples tested.

I could take additional steps to try to prove there there is no problem, but I have a feeling either the tenant is already made up his mind that there is a problem, or this is an opportunity to make me jump through hoops.

Would like some advice on how to proceed from my end.  I think I need to switch to written documentation (emails) to carefully record all communications regarding this in case this goes south.  Right now it has been a combination or texts and calls.

I have no problem to let him break the lease and move somewhere else, this is always an option.

But as a landlord, I am a bit nervous when someone says they kind of have a health issue that they think may be related to the conditions of the property whether perceived or otherwise.  How much hoops should I jump through just to prove the property is fine while I navigate this complaint.

Quote from @Bob Stevens:

Quote from @Sam Leon:

I have a property that I have completely gutted and have been rehabbing.  Progress is slow, because amongst all my properties it's the furthest away and between a full time job and landlording, I can only work on this property on weekends.

I have completed re-framing, re-plumbing of drains and supply lines and new electrical rough ins, but property has no finished walls, ceilings, or flooring.  The next stage would be to install sheetrock on walls and ceiling, waterproof bathroom walls and install tiles, finished flooring, new kitchen cabinets and appliance, install bathroom fixtures.

The problem is time.  I have other priorities that require me to put this rehabbing on the back burner, I am also at a good milestone in the process.  So I am considering two options:

(1) HIre a contractor to hand off to finish the project.

(2) Sell it as-is.

If I go with option #2, obviously it cannot be a normal sale as the property is not habitable in it's current state, so cannot be mortgaged nor insured. What are the best ways to find buyers that will be a good fit? I don't think finding an agent to advertise it as a "handyman special" on MLS will be fruitful.

 RE is nothing but math, sell it as is to an investor cash, if it makes sense, OR fix and sell, KEEP IT SIMPLE. Not really sure what you are wanting us to tell you . You only have two options  

Good luck 

Thank you.  Yeah just sort of thinking out loud at this point.  I guess I am asking if I need to sell it to a cash buyer, what is the best way to do it.  I don't think listing with an agent will work since I am not looking to sell to the general public, I do get these yellow post cards and letters from "CASH FOR YOUR HOUSE NOW" but I believe those are not investors buyers but more bird-dogs looking to get it on a contract to reassign at closing.  Looking for guidance on how/where best to find qualified cash end buyers.

Quote from @Ray Hage:

@Sam Leon I would aim to finish it up with some handymen or a contractor. Doing all the work yourself doesn't make sense if you have a full time and other priorities. Get some estimates on what it would cost to finish up and of course, figure out how much the ARV will be to see if it is worth what the contractors are charging. I don't think it is worth trying to sell half done as you will have a limited pool of buyerI am looking at both options. The problem with finding contractors to finish is finding a good and reliable one, especially in south Florida I have not been able to find anyone over the years. I was able to find a few good subs like electrical, landscaping, roofing, AC tech, foundation, yet can't find a good general contractor. Tried a few but they are far from reliable...in a sense that if I am not on site things go sideways, or even no activity and completely missing for days. Even simple stuff like locking the door at the end of the day or turn water off at the main shutoff were a challenge. It got to a point I needed to show myself to button up at the end of each day to make progress.

I have a property that I have completely gutted and have been rehabbing.  Progress is slow, because amongst all my properties it's the furthest away and between a full time job and landlording, I can only work on this property on weekends.

I have completed re-framing, re-plumbing of drains and supply lines and new electrical rough ins, but property has no finished walls, ceilings, or flooring.  The next stage would be to install sheetrock on walls and ceiling, waterproof bathroom walls and install tiles, finished flooring, new kitchen cabinets and appliance, install bathroom fixtures.

The problem is time.  I have other priorities that require me to put this rehabbing on the back burner, I am also at a good milestone in the process.  So I am considering two options:

(1) HIre a contractor to hand off to finish the project.

(2) Sell it as-is.

If I go with option #2, obviously it cannot be a normal sale as the property is not habitable in it's current state, so cannot be mortgaged nor insured. What are the best ways to find buyers that will be a good fit? I don't think finding an agent to advertise it as a "handyman special" on MLS will be fruitful.

Quote from @Colleen F.:

@Sam Leon  theoretically it could be considered a family status to be single people but so many towns have passed unrelated person ordinances I wouldn't worry about it. No judge is going to support them. Fair housing doesn't protect single people.  I have restricted the number of cars to deal with this for one house since I got so many roommate situations.  You can also look at residential history together. 

Yes I also have a restriction on vehicles basically each bedroom gets 1 car space allocation.  So a 2BR unit has two parking spaces, a studio or 1BR gets only 1 space.  That in turn helped solves a few other issues as well.

Quote from @Scott Trench:

Interesting - there's the law, and there's "best practice" - I don't think there is a law saying that you can or can't deny people based on whether they previously know one another. Maybe a lawyer can answer that question, and it might be state specific. 

But, best practice is to simply always accept the first qualified applicant. Set a high bar and rent to the first person to clear it, and you avoid most of your problems with screening. 

I literally live next door in a house-hack to five unrelated individuals who are on a single lease. They are some of my best tenants, friendly, take great care of the place, and reach out when there is a legitimate problem I want to know about. 

Regardless, if you proceed with multiple tenants, make sure that they know, before, during, and after lease signing, that they are jointly and severally liable for the rent and terms of the lease. That means if one party flakes out on the other, the remaining party is still responsible for 100% of the rent and/or damages. This is true regardless of their relationship status prior to entering into the lease. 

I do all that, in addition to income requirements, employment verification, tenancy history verification and credit/criminal background checks, I also put weight on some components that are more subjective in nature.  I prefer tenants who follow instructions, have common sense, punctual and friendly.  I don't become friends with them, but I would select a good tenant  over a bad tenant even if the bad tenant pays a higher rent.  This is one of the reasons I reward good tenants with a smaller increase when I renew a lease.  I have a pretty air tight lease but there is only so much a lease can do...one can put down on the lease don't put the following five thousand things into the disposer and the following three thousand things into the toilet, but no one reads it and having someone with common sense is important.

My personal experiences with roommates who don't know each other have been not so pleasant.  I would say it's worse then student rentals.  Not sure where they found each other, may be Facebook or other social media?  Anyone know?  Where you can post to see who else may be interested in renting a house together?

I don't mind renting to roommates,  I don't care if they are related or not, married or not, friends, same sex couples, different sex couples, non-binary couples...but if they don't even know each other, then suddenly thrown together under the same roof will present challenges, and some of those challenges take up my time.