Alex.
The fact that you say it's at "head-level" does suggest that it wasn't some random spill.
As for the remediation cost, you can probably assume that the cost will START at $1,000. Yes, that's a made up number, but let's consider a worst-case scenario.
Consider that the walls that you see as stained will have to be removed. Then consider the cost to rebuild and reprint or re-tile. And, if you start tearing the wall out and then find that the back side of the wallboard is covered in mold, you have to find a way to safely contain it - thereby preventing spores from flying all around the house. You can eat up a bunch of money quickly in a small area doing that. (Honestly, it may not wind up being a grand, but it is gonna' have some costs and will involve a few days time.)
I am more concerned with the "casual attitude" being taken by the real estate professionals (and I use that word loosely in this instance). The sellers AND buyers agents should BOTH do everything in their power to get you specifics about what happened in that area, and they should do it NOW!
Many states have a "mold disclosure form" that must be addressed by sellers and their agents at the time of listing. ALL states have some form of "environmental disclosure form" that must also be considered. If there isn't one attached to the sales documents (disclosure) and yet you see stains like those described, then someone isn't doing their job. That, or the seller is an outright liar and he/she is exposing all parties to a later lawsuit.
My suggestion would be to have your inspector (or your agent) get more details on the spill and then make your decision. If they continue to pass it off as no big deal, then they should surely be able to explain details on what caused the stains ... And do so in writing.
A small area of mold won't necessarily ruin a deal. You just want the specific details so that you can accurately determine your upcoming repair costs.
Good luck!
Travis West
Mark.
Landscaping can do a lot for you. Adding that downspout and kicking the water waaay out away from the basement will help also.
Certainly, most of this would not have occurred if the sump had been running. That alone would have been a savior for you.
If you find it is consistently damp down there, you might also look for a good dehumidifier that you can put on a timer.
Travis
@Mark Gruetzmacher,
In spite of what @Marc Faulkner has said, mixing bleach with water only kills some of the mold. And it is IMPORTANT to note that even if it (or some other product) did kill 100% of the millions and millions of mold spores, hyphal matter, bacteria, etc., the presence of a dead mold spore is just as allergenic as a live mold spore. Killing mold - especially when you've had as much as you described here - will not solve the problem
Hidden Molds
Even if you were to take the shortcut - and take your chances (legally speaking) by spraying something on the walls to kill the obvious molds, you can't spray into the area behind the wallboard. Mold likes to grow in dark and wet spaces. Mold even likes to grow in that space where the wallboard meets the wood. The process of killing mold only on the areas you see - in your particular instance - will have no effect on the molds on the backside of the wallboard, on the hidden structural wood, or inside of the insulation.
I might even go so far as to say that you should consider removing the belly board materials - which are usually OSB or ChipBoard (also known as WasWood - it was wood once, but not any more). These are only one level up (on the structural ladder) from gypsum wallboard. This means that these surfaces can also grow mold very easily. There could be some on the top side of the belly board in areas where you can't see it. i would recommend that you check that space very well before you make any decision to keep or discard the belly board.
Structural Integrity
I have little doubt that having that much water saturating wallboard, structural wood, and insulation for any time beyond a week will seriously compromise the structural integrity on 2 of those 3 items. Structural wood can get wet and dry ... get wet and dry ... and get wet and dry many times over ... but first, you have to dry it in a timely manner. That was not done here. Consequently, saturated wood that does not have a chance to dry turns into mush. There are all kinds of scientific (i.e. physics) reasons why this occurs. Suffice to say, wallboard, structural studs, insulation, etc. that has been wet that long needs to be discarded.
There are many products and processes to kill mold in place. Very few - and I do mean VERY FEW are effective. Here is my point:
While it's true that some folks react to the mycotoxins created by live molds, most of the asthmatic and allergy-prone individuals who react to the presence of mold are reacting to the proteins in the mold body.
Picture a mold spore being in the shape of a football or even a soccer ball. Now let's say you're killing it in place. You don't destroy the shape when you spray or otherwise treat the surface. That "shape" of the spore is made up of millions of protein particles created as the mold spore grows and develops. Killing it doesn't make (DOES NOT MAKE) the shape go away. Consequently, killing it does not make the proteins go away.
As I said earlier, most people who react to mold, react to the proteins. That means that killing a mold - as opposed to removing - leaves it there for the next allergic person (your tenant maybe?) to react to it.
If you want the mold problem to go away, don't bother killing it. Concern yourself with getting rid of it (through removal / remediation). There are no if's, and's, or but's about it! Removing the damaged materials is the only way to be sure that the mold you find won't be a problem in the future.
Your Eventual Liability
First, +1 on what @John Arendsen just said!
You don't normally ask your tenants the extent of their allergies or asthma. Heck! If you did, one of them might come after you with a lawsuit using The Americans With Disabilities Act. Rather, you assume that they are in good health unless they tell you otherwise. (I am not an expert on what information you can ask potential renters, so you'll have to visit another forum here on BP for better guidance on that point.)
If at sometime in the future however, one of your tenants does react to the air quality (because you missed some molds or did an improper job of cleaning it up) then you will be party to a lawsuit.
On the other hand, if you address it correctly, and hire a professional company to do the remediation, you rely on THEIR insurance to confirm that the work was done correctly and in a professional manner. Financially, the difference could be a few hundred vs. a couple of thousand - today - but could certainly be much, much more if you get sued in the future.
Finally
Although I am not an expert on what you can ask the potential renters, I am an expert on mold. I have been involved in countless mold contamination projects ranging from mobile homes, to light commercial, to large and high-rise commercial, to educational environments (elementary through college level) since the early 90's. And because of that I say that you should use a professional any time that you want to address mold correctly, using the latest standards, engineering controls (to prevent cross-contamination), trained staff, be covered by THEIR insurance, etc.
I realize that many people here on BP have chosen to do it themselves and some of them don't ever have downstream problems. Not everybody has that kind of luck though, and if you have a renter with sick children who suddenly can't live in a home you leased, then they will come after you.
Please post any follow-up questions or comments here and I will certainly try to respond to them.
Travis West
CIEC (Council Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant)
MAC0325 (Mold Assessment Consultant; licensed by the Texas Department of State Health Services)
Sorry for another lengthy post. I am tired from a long day and lots of road miles. I hope I helped answer questions without hurting egos.
Travis
@Brie Schmidt In spite of what the current owner is trying to say, the mold levels that were reported in the airborne samples - along with the photos that were originally posted in this thread - confirm that the mold did NOT come from anywhere else. Rather, it is actively growing on the walls, sills, and other discolored surfaces shown in the photos. In fact, you could even collect a swab sample from one of those surfaces (choose the blackest one) and sent that sample to a lab. Let the current owner or their representative watch you take the sample. Hopefully that would prove to them what's occurring.
Toxic Mold Hazards
Toxic mold is toxic TO OTHER MOLDS! The toxins that they create will kill other mold, thereby allowing molds (like Stachybotrys) to take over the other mold's real estate.
No one has ever been documented to have died from exposure to Stachybotrys. Horses in Russia - by the thousands - died at the beginning of the 20th century, but they ate hay that was severly contaminated. They ingested the molds. They didn't breath the molds. Maybe Stachybotrys could kill people if we ate it ... but we don't!
Remedation Companies
@Andy Kaye you have a very low opinion of mold remediation companies. There are certainly folks out there who do the bare minimum and bill big bucks and they screw up the reputation of the other good remediation companies. And trust me ... there are hundreds of remediation companies that are in the business of doing this correctly and safely! Dont just lump all of them together though. They're just like real estate investors. How would you like it if people always related YOU to some scumbag investor who wants to steal a home from someone at the lowest possible price, and then doesn't fix anything and wants the highest rents. It hurts us as investors to be lumped into the same category as the bad investors. I'm sure the remediation contractors feel the same way!
Our Daily Spore Exposures
We also do NOT breathe in millions of spores every minute. The readings provided in this thread showed levels in the 1200 - 1400 count range for a 3 minute sample. Those are relatively high levels of mold spores. That's not "millions per minute" but rather equate to 400-500 a minute (in a heavily contaminated environment). Exaggeration is not helpful when trying to sort out these issues!
Remediation On Your Own - a.k.a. Are You Self Insured?!
As I said in an earlier post, you can do the work yourself. I even provided direction to an EPA document that helps you learn what you can do, and what you should avoid. If you (whoever is reading this) has NOT downloaded or at least looked at the document I referenced, then do it now!
@Andy Kaye used the "magic number" of a 5' by 5' space. I don't know where that came from. There are NYC guidance documents that state dimensions. There are industry guidelines that state different dimensions. In Texas (where I am licensed) there are dimensions that are much larger than that. Is that arbitrary or were you quoting a specific guidance from some government or industry reference?
Regardless of what method or treatment you choose to employ (I'm talking to everyone here) you MUST do it under containment to make sure that you don't allow spores to migrate to other unaffected areas. Containment, a.k.a. known as plastic sheeting, must be firmly affixed to walls, ceilings, floors, and other surfaces to build a plastic barrier. Yes, you will also need to put an air scrubber in there to clean the air while you're removing the mold - and that must run for 24-48 hours AFTER you completed the job to make sure that all spores, dusts, and hyphal fragments are captured. No Andy Kaye - Scrubbers are not used "so that when they take an air sample of your room, it will show a lower concentration of mold spores than before." They are really placed there to scrub the bad stuff out of the air - i.e. remove all remnants of mold remediation debris. NOTE: In an earlier post, I aid that the proteins of the mold fragments and spores are what the hypersensitive (allergy and asthma sufferers) are reacting to. If you just "tear out some drywall, wipe the studs, and seal the studs" and don't choose to do it in containment or use a scrubber of some type, then you are choosing to accept the liability.
Attorneys love it when someone who thinks they know what to do, choose to do it incorrectly.
Personally, I am tired of hearing all of these "closet mold experts" describe how mold isn't a problem when it really is an issue of concern to owners, buyers, sellers, and even occupants. Just because YOU don't react to mold, does not mean that the next person ... or perhaps your next tenant or their child does not.
Unless you're going to personally screen every potential tenant for allergies and asthma, then you'd better provide them with the healthiest environment that you can ... and if that means paying a professional to do it right - rather than just "ripping and skipping" with a 5' x 5' removal and some wiping and painting, then DO IT!
Once again, I am attempting to help people on this forum and trying to educate (or re-educate) those who have the wrong information ...
Travis West
I was finally able to find time to review the report and I can offer following opinion.
Finding airborne Stachybotrys molds is very unusual. I am assuming that the space is unoccupied and consequently, there is no one in there to "stir up" the spores. Hence, my concern that finding this mold airborne it is very unusual.
Possible Sources
It is possible that the moisture is from outside air leaking in ... and if there is a gap/opening in a perimeter wall or window, then that could create the airflow that would cause this mold to become airborne. It could also be the reason that the moisture is there. Water often comes into a building in the form of water vapor. When that vapor comes in contact with a cooler surface, then condensation can occur. Over long periods of time, that kind of condensation (water) will certainly support the growth of mold. But that's all based on an uneducated assumption (since I haven't been at the building).
Managing the Remediation
The engineer in me says, "Heck! I can always create engineering controls (containment, airflow, air scrubbing, dehumidification) and strategies to manage mold without it escaping during remediation." There is always a way ... but most of those strategies need to be designed and completed by experienced people/companies. And from what I've read from some of the folks in this thread, many of the investors here don't trust remediation companies.
IMHO
Given that some won't trust a remediation company then I'd echo what @John Weidner said above ... Find another deal!
I think you want to handle this in one of three ways:
1) Hire a consulting professional to manage the project and have a qualified remediation company do the work. Follow their guidance and if they screw up, let their insurance pay you for their mistakes. Or,
2) Do it yourself and take your chances. Just make sure that you've purchased the property using a legal entity that can't expose your other business and personal assets. Or,
3) Move on to another deal.
While I don't personally feel that Stachybotrys is all that bad (not worse than many other molds) the fact that it is there and that people can get scared or litigious when they hear that kind of mold referenced, makes me want to ONLY consider options 1 or 3 above.
Simply put, you'd be CRAZY to want to do it yourself!
Too much risk!
Travis
@Danny Duran and others here.
Everyone who invests in residential or light commercial real estate should have a copy of this document on their computer, iPad, or similar digital device.
This makes a quick read and explains the hazards and pitfalls of remediation. It also provides some common sense solutions to resolving mold on construction materials.
The EPA guidance on mold issues is here: http://epa.gov/mold/moldguide.html
The digital copy of the same information is here: http://epa.gov/mold/pdfs/moldguide.pdf
This document does not help you estimate costs for repairs, but does help you see through the "smoke screen" that many remediation companies will put up when talking about mold in homes.
In spite of what John D. recommended in his response above, the use of a chemical or biocide that kills organisms such as mold (chlorine bleach, for example) is not recommended as a routine practice during mold cleanup. This is because "a dead mold is just as harmful to the hypersensitive as a live mold!" Why you may ask is that? Well, the mold hyphal matter (the spores/seeds, branches, etc.) have the allergen in their proteins. Killing mold does not inactivate the proteins. I can cite numerous instances where killing mold in an area occupied by hypersensitive people did NOT stop their symptoms. That's because they were still breathing in the (now dead) hyphal matter and said matter contains the proteins that they were reacting to. So they keep on reacting to the molds (dead or alive)!
Rather, remediation (as in removal of mold-contaminated materials) is the way to go. In the case of structural wood (studs, sill plates, headers, wood framing, etc.) that has mold, it is best to HEPA vacuum, then wipe with a solution of mild soap (dish soap) and water. Allow it to dry then revacuum the surface. If there is discoloration in the wood pores then you can do a light sanding, HEPA vacuum, wipe with the soap/water solution, allow to dry and HEPA vacuum again. Light sanding does not impact the structural integrity of structural wood.
Following that, a treatment with Kilz or Fosters encapsulating paint on the structural wood is OK as that will ensure that any hyphal matter that you missed does not become further airborne.
Mold investigations and remediation are a science. But there is lots that investors can do to reduce their costs - and their ultimate exposure. The downside is ...
If you do it wrong, you now have a much greater exposure than you ever want!
Download the document and read it thoroughly.
That should give you the knowledge that you need to deal with mold.
Travis West, CIEC, MAC0325
@Annette Hibbler. I agree, and I apologize if it sounded like I was scolding you or getting bent out of shape. I wasn't trying to fly off the handle. I was trying to make sure that I provided as much information as needed in the context of your statement. (If you look at most of my responses on mold - not just black mold - here on BP, I tend to get wordy!) That's the consultant in me trying to write things that don't get misunderstood.
I think some of that comes from trying to educate attorneys - who seldom understand as much as they think they do!
I just really C.R.I.N.G.E. when someone makes a statement that could easily mislead the uninformed.
I appreciate that you are affected by mold. As I said in my post, I react too. And I'm around it all of the time. But in reality, you and I may represent less than 2% of the people who can be exposed to some measure of Chaetomium or Stachybotrys, or some other mystery mold and will react. The other 98% won't.
Travis
NNOOOOOOOO !!
@Annette Hibbler ... That is just the kind of thinking that causes problems., and sends the very wrong message!
BLACK MOLD ... i.e. Stachybotrys Chartarum is NOT deadly!
Molds (many, many molds) create toxins. These toxins are created to "kill other molds." And, in spite of all the press that black mold has received, there is no evidence that Stachybotrys molds have killed anyone - when found in an indoor environmental setting. (See WHY MOLDS KILL below)
I will be the first to admit that baled hay and grass contaminated with Stachybotrys killed hundreds of horses and cattle in Europe and parts of Russia, many, many years ago. That is NOT people!
There are plenty of people who say that they can get sick from exposure to the toxins from Stachybotrys mold. People have been saying this for years ... But the facts do not lie! There is absolutely NO scientific and verifiable evidence that Stachybotrys affects people. Yes, there are some who will say that when exposed to it, they feel "fuzzy and out of body experiences." They relate this to some effect that the toxins are having on their central nervous system. I myself, will develop a rash on my arms and neck when I go into a room that has Stachbotrys growing all over the walls and ceilings. Yes, myself and others DO react! But I return to my previous statement. While there is lots of "anectdotal evidence" there is virtually NO scientific research (peer-reviewed verifiable) showing that Stachybotrys has harmed humans. And again ... I am NOT aware of anybody who has died from exposure to this mold.
WHY MOLDS KILL
Molds grow in response to moisture. And the longer the moisture is present - and the higher the moisture content is - the more likelihood that Stachybotrys molds will be present. But ... Stachybotrys (and it's friend Chaetomium) do not occur overnight. Rather, they occur after a prolonged wetting ... a situation where organic materials (like wallboard paper) remains wet for weeks, not hours (or a few days).
Molds start to grow almost immediately after a piece of organic material becomes wet. These molds start at a microscopic level and you won't even notice them until several days have passed. The first "colonizers" are the more common molds like Cladosporium, Aspergillus, Penicillium, Ascospores, Basidiospores, etc. These are pretty common and are seen as light grey, light green, fuzzy growths.
Try to imagine a situation where the wall remains wet and these other molds flourish. Now - after a prolonged time (based on the factors of time, temperature and the amount of water) Stachybotrys will begin to develop. It usually starts where the wall or ceiling is the wettest. That's because it needs LOTS of water. As it grows, it spies the "other molds" occupying the remaining real estate (other wallboard) and says ... "Hm! If I can make some toxins, I can kill that mold, and then take over it's real estate!" So, using the moisture it's being fed, the Stachybotrys will generate toxins - TO KILL OTHER MOLDS! Then, it invades the other mold's locations. That's it! Nothing more sinister than that.
Stachybotrys is NOT the only mold to do this. It is just the one receiving the most press because of the types of toxins it creates and the perceived ill effects of people who come in contact with it. But the facts are that a piece of organic material MUST be wet for a very long time for this process to occur.
Simply put ... Stachybotrys is just a fungi-based "real estate investor" who wants the other guys acreage!
DOCTORS and LAWSUITS
I will be the first to admit that there is a small group of doctors (mainly toxicologists) who have studied the effects of Stachybotrys on people. Some of these doctors even serve as expert witnesses in lawsuits brought by homeowners and tenants. They claim that there is "irrefutable evidence" that the toxins created by Stachybotrys have hurt their clients. Darned few of these cases are finalized and most settle out of court. And I don't discount what they claim - I just haven't seen the proper research on this issue.
I travel in this "realm" quite a bit and have had to deal with questions from many, many people over the years about exposure to Stachybotrys toxins. Again ... Everything I've seen is anecdotal and ... there is no peer-reviewed scientific research that proves that Stachybotrys toxins have KILLED ANYONE!
Travis West
Building Air Quality, Inc.
MAC0325 (Licensed Mold Assessment Consultant, Texas Department of State Health Services)
CIEC (Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant, American Council of Accredited Certifications)
There are specific tests that will look for airborne mold. Usually, it's a five minute air sample using an Air-O-Cell cassette or some other kind of "slit-impactor" sampling media. The media (a protected laboratory slide) is placed onto the air sampler which is then turned on. Air is collected for five minutes (10 if the space is really clean) and whatever is airborne in the space (including mold spores) is impacted onto the surface of the slide. These cassettes (containing the slide) are then returned to a laboratory for microscopic analysis.
Sample analysis can tell if there is something unusual - or something not normally seen indoors - and can also report on the quantity in "spores per cubic meter of air sampled."
This is a very scientific method for sampling to look for airborne molds.
Pricing could be $500-$600 for the consultant fees and could cost up to $80 per sample collected. It adds up when you learn that they might need to collect 2 or 3 from each floor of the home (yes the basement too) and two from the outside air for comparison.
Some folks will do it much cheaper than that. Unfortunately, the quality of the reporting and the level of experience is comparable to the price. The higher the price - the more reliable the reporting. The cheaper the price - the less information provided by the report.
Good luck!
Travis West
* CIEC (Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant) Certified by the American Council of Accredited Certification
* MAC0325 (Mold Assessment Consultant) Licensed by the State of Texas Department of State Health Services