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Updated about 3 years ago, 09/30/2021
COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
If we're talking about freedom and liberty then it comes down to the "Non Aggression Principal," and how it applies to a pandemic. You have the liberty to move about and engage in any activity you want as long as you do not violate the rights of others, most importantly initiate violence against another individual.
Your, mine and all of our freedom and liberty stop when you violate my (or anyone's) right to be free of violence and being harmed. If you are going around and unknown to yourself you're a carrier of COVID-19 you are inflicting harm against an unknown toll of people, violating their rights and liberty. Just like you are not free to recklessly discharge a firearm in a crowded place, you are not free to go around possibly infecting others, otherwise you violate the NAP.
That all being said I think we need to begin rolling out a reopen ASAP, as in the immediate future, as it makes sense where it makes sense. We need widespread testing and the further quarantine of high risk individuals. I think we'll be able to soon, but we don't want to make the situation worse. We risk sending the economy into further turmoil and the loosing more freedoms if we don't nip this thing in the bud!
If we want to live in a true "free society" that requires individuals making smart decisions, like reducing the risk of spreading a disease. We don't need a government to tell us to take care of ourselves, our families, our neighborhoods and communities at large.
Some people think that they would only put themselves at risk going to public places, going back to work, etc. How can they not see the number of people they would come into contact with and expose on a daily basis?
@Damaso Bautista boss move!
How can people even compare a viral disease to car accidents? Their ignorance is astounding
Originally posted by @John Collins:
The thing you're missing, is that the health care system is already overburdened. Health care workers are not only getting infected, but dying due to the lack of currently available resources. As the USA scrambles to procure these resources, quarantining is the best possible solution to buying them time. Your little speech would be good if you were a cheerleader in high school and want everyone to rah rah, but in the real world you need substance. People are dying on hospital floors and being dumped in body pits by the hundred because of a lack of resources to combat a virus totally different to the flu.
That is why quarantining is important now. Yes, the middle class and wealthy can complain about others not working all they want, but it is the actual workers who are disproportionately affected, whether they be $15/hr restaurant workers, $25/hr construction workers or $82k a year nurses. Actual workers. So it is out of consideration for an already overburdened system, and to not make things worse, we quarantine for a while and NOT go to sporting events, music festivals, restaurants etc. because it is the country's obligation to treat those who are critically ill whether you like it or not. I'm getting hurt financially but as someone part of the human race, I accept it is necessary.
John, the problem, is that like you, the majority of America watches the news like its gospel. I work in the health care system, I am are covid patients every day. I am on the front line ever day. I am in and out of hospitals every day. The hospitals ARE at about 50% capacity, and this virus DOES NOT spread like the news tells you. Wear a mask and wash your hands and you WILL NOT get this virus. The media is to blame for the demise of this country.
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
I get where you are coming from and I'm sorry for the personal attacks you are getting from certain people in this forum over your gender and race. I'm surprised and disappointed that the moderators are allowing this to occur. I would expect this on Twitter perhaps but not BiggerPockets.
Regarding your post, I hear your frustration, but, be patient. Things will loosen up soon enough. In the coming weeks and months, at least socially, things will return to normal. The economy may take a while to recover but adversity to some is opportunity for others. Hang in there.
I think people need patience. The first stay at home order was issued
about a month ago. The fact is the infection and death rates numbers are
going down. I read all sort of wrong headed opinions on this site, from
quoting Ben Franklin out of context, to "older people are going to die in a few years anyway".
It seems to me, that we expose who we really are in times of crisis. From what I'm reading it's not looking too good.
Again, I just think we all need a chill pill and wait a little longer for this pandemic to play out.
I think it is easy to see that we have all made up our minds on this topic and it is not necessary to read through 169 comments to know that none of them swayed either group one way or another. So instead of trying to solve this on bigger pockets why don't we leave the politics up to the politicians. Hopefully there will be plenty of deals to be had when this is all over and we can all go back to being investor friends again :).
For anyone that thinks the virus is not related to real estate investing, here you go. I got this from another thread, which I have linked as well.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/51/topics/826427-mortgage-and-rent-cancellation-in-new-bill
I was willing to be nice for the sake of Grandma but Grandma needs to take her vitamins now. This is what going way too far looks like. If you read this and still think the virus does not relate to rights and rights do not relate to investing...I dunno...I guess all I can say is stop, just stop, go home and play with your toys, it's time for the adults to step in and take charge.
Anyone who wants REI to continue, please read these and think real carefully, and consider what measures like this proposal really mean.
@Bryan Beal go out. Go party. Go to your brother's house. Go to work. My colleagues and I will be waiting. Waiting to intubate your parents/brother/sister/aunts/uncles/friends when they get sick. Waiting to discuss dnr/dni as they struggle to breath on 100% FiO2 on the vent. Putting our lives at risk to heal your love ones while you go around spreading the virus as you're one of the lucky asymptomatic carriers. As a physician and a RE investor I'd gladly take the economic impact if it means my family, friends, community get through this with our health.
When I first wrote this post, I knew there was going to be a mixed reaction. I knew there would be some who supported by stance and I knew that most would blast me for it. @Steven Lowe and sure enough, the insults came flying - name calling, attacking my character, coming after me for my race, gender and sexuality, wishing harm to my family and myself - you name it, I think I've heard it in the last few days. It's sad but that's the ugly reality we're in now and maybe even sadder that I expected this to happen. And quite honestly, I've had a large number of people reach out to me offline about this who have shared their support for my post but don't want to face the backlash I've been taking since this started. Hard to
blame them... @Peter Rodriguez is a perfect example of this - "anyone who disagrees with me is trash." Productive. And to insinuate that it's better for the entire country, economy and business to fail is both irrational and shortsighted. We (should) ALL care about the economic and real estate ramifications on this site - that's why we're all here. Do you not think that would cause more hardship and suffering than the current issue at hand? Might be time to rethink this a bit...
@Spencer Gray - I don't disagree with your stance at all. I think (as I've said from the very beginning) we should always take care of those that need it. That's a paramount responsibility. But, at a certain point, as you mentioned, we need to reopen and we need to reopen sooner rather than later. At a certain point (and I believe we're very close to this point) the cure becomes worse than the virus. That can't happen. That's where we need to reassess our goals and tactics on how to best move forward.
@Taylor Fontaine - no one has to agree with me. I didn't post this with the idea that anyone would agree with me (see above) and that was never the point. I firmly believe that we grow and evolve through having constructive and intelligent discourse. I always want to hear the other side of an argument and I always want to understand it. I don't have to agree with it or like it but I can appreciate their standpoint and respect their right to have it. This is why I'm responding to your post specifically - you had a well-crafted, thought-provoking argument and disagreement with me. That's fine. That's all within the guidelines of these civil liberties and basic freedoms I discussed from the beginning. But if we're all having that "private thought" to reopen the economy, we should also be able to have a public one that's free of insults and finger pointing.
@Natalie Schanne - thank you for your thoughtful post, as well. I want everyone on your side to be happy and healthy during this time. And while my thoughts are (obviously) not shared by most, thank you for being respectful in your discussion and understanding a difference of opinion. Nothing but success and well-being!
@Lindsey Clark - to end on a positive note, completely agree that this has gotten out of hand and when this dust settles and this is all over, we all have wild success in our REI futures!
@Bryan BealI am 100% on your side. As to the others, if they don’t know they don’t now.
Representative Democracy I'm pretty sure you know what that means, we elect people to do what they think is in our best interest. In most cases, our elected representatives are letting public health professionals take the lead as to what we should do. This is being done throughout the country, red and blue states. Secondly, you essentially framed your argument as a binary choice we can let people die while we open up the economy, although you do sympathize w/the people who would die. I think our response to this virus should be a bit more nuance than the choices you presented, as I stated in my earlier post we're only a month into this. What the statistics are today may not be what they are in the near future. To compare this virus with the flu is a straw-man argument, there are treatments and vaccines for the flu and the last I check none for this virus. Lastly, if you where to go out and infect someone with this virus what should be your repercussion? It would be nice if we all lived in an actual bubble. Again, I think we all should have patience and have a plan in place to try to move forward to these turbulent times, and not panic.
The anti-shutdown people are ridiculous. Americans survived World War I (1914 to 1918), the Great Depression (1930 to 1941) and World War II (1941 to 1945) and went on to build the greatest country and economic opportunity ever and people are now whining that they have to curtail their activities for a month or two to protect the lives of millions of Americans? Selfish 4ucks! Are we that lame that we cannot survive NOT going to the Mall and the Cheesecake Factory for a few months? Missing out on sporting events and concerts? Really? Your great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents would be ashamed of you. Learn about self-sacrifice for the greater good. The initial estimates were that 1 to 2 million could die without mitigation efforts, we have definitely "flattened the curve" since the mortality estimate now stands at less than 100,000. That is all because of social distancing and the shutdown. This is NOT "the flu," this is a novel virus that is highly contagious and devastating and we have no treatments or vaccine for it. We are trying to buy time and it is working because most Americans are decent, intelligent, responsible people who care about their neighbors.
@John Chang: "there's no denying that shutting down the entire country will do irreversible damage to the country, to the economy"
No one is shutting down the entire country, just the non-essential businesses (looking at you tattoo parlors) and no, there will be no "irreversible" damage, that is absurd. America will get through this and get back to work and continue to kick a$$ as we have before. Be a patriot, not a pansy.
As far as churches: are you only Christian/Jewish/Muslim if you can go to your house of worship weekly? Really? Is that how it works? Because I thought you could practice your religion in your own home, on your own time, in your own heart and mind, not have to physically show up to some random building weekly to prove to yourself and others what you believe. You're all squawking that the First Amendment protects your religion from government interference but guess what? The government is now trying to protect all of us from you spreading around the highly contagious virus that you picked up in your Sunday petri dish. Deal with it. I don't think you're going to get hit by lightning for skipping church for a few weeks.
As for the psychological risks of the shutdown (suicide, drug/alcohol use, child abuse, domestic violence), this is why we need a strong social safety net, such as food banks, free health clinics, volunteer organizations that can help people weather the economic and other stress we are all going through. Isolating does not mean turning a blind eye to the fact that others are in a worse position than we are. Donate, volunteer, do what you can to lend a helping hand until this giant suckfest is over.
More education for those of you who do not understand medicine/science: the death rate is not inflated, many patients are being diagnosed with COVID-19 clinically, meaning they may not have been tested but are presumed to have the disease based on their clinical presentation. This does count as a COVID-19 death, it does not mean doctors are wrongly attributing deaths to the disease.
Disclaimer: I am a physician who works in a long term care facility, we have dozens of sick patients and sick staff members, including one patient death so far (and expecting more unfortunately). We were in PPE at work for weeks, social distancing, had eliminated family visits, meetings, basically any extraneous work or staffing as best we could and it still got into our facility. I was one of the most strict staff members there and became the second staff member infected in spite of how careful I was being. Spent 16 days in bed including a trip to the ER on day 12 where I was diagnosed with left lower lobe pneumonia. Finally on the mend, I will be returning to work tomorrow. This virus is no joke. Highly contagious and makes you very ill and there is nothing you can do but cross your fingers once you have it. I am 49 years old without medical problems and in good shape. My husband, who has an autoimmune condition and is on immunosuppressants, also got it and is now recovered but hearing him start coughing a week after I went into quarantine was one of the most personally scary things I have ever heard.
Stay safe everyone, keep your distance, avoid people who are not wearing masks, wash your hands and RELAX! This too shall pass!
@Jennifer Petrillo - I know many physicians and nurses around the country dealing with this right now. The majority of them say this is overblown compared to what is being reported. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. You're in NJ, the state that ranks 2nd in infections and death in the country, and you work at a long term care facility. Of course your perspective will be shaped to the viewpoint you have because you're surrounded by the most at risk in one of the most contaminated areas. You can find research and articles to support either side of this argument.
You talk about being selfish. Indulge me and let's play out a scenario. A family has built a small, family business from the ground up. They're not rich, they're not poor, they are the average American family who went into business for themselves and have carved out a nice living. Then, COVID-19 hits. They aren't too concerned about contracting it themselves but they're forced to shut down their business against their will and halt all revenue and income. The SBA runs out of small business loan money (which happened in the blink of an eye) and unemployment falls way behind (also a harsh reality) and without producing any income, they still have to pay their mortgage, their lease on their commercial building and pay for the everyday necessities. All of the sudden, this family that was doing OK, is now forced to shut its doors and that nice little family business they put together is gone. Taken away because they were forced to shut down. Is that fair? Is that selfish?
This isn't hyperbole - this is happening all over the country. They're considered "non-essential" but they are certainly essential to the families who own these businesses.
There is no "one-size-fits-all" to this - people suffer on either side so there has to be a middle ground. That isn't all or nothing. That is why, in my original post, I say that we can make personal choices surrounding this issue. If people are in self-quarantine, they're isolated from the infection - whether or not someone else goes out and does something social is of no consequence to them if they truly stay in isolation.
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Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
@Jennifer Petrillo - I know many physicians and nurses around the country dealing with this right now. The majority of them say this is overblown compared to what is being reported. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. You're in NJ, the state that ranks 2nd in infections and death in the country, and you work at a long term care facility. Of course your perspective will be shaped to the viewpoint you have because you're surrounded by the most at risk in one of the most contaminated areas. You can find research and articles to support either side of this argument.
You talk about being selfish. Indulge me and let's play out a scenario. A family has built a small, family business from the ground up. They're not rich, they're not poor, they are the average American family who went into business for themselves and have carved out a nice living. Then, COVID-19 hits. They aren't too concerned about contracting it themselves but they're forced to shut down their business against their will and halt all revenue and income. The SBA runs out of small business loan money (which happened in the blink of an eye) and unemployment falls way behind (also a harsh reality) and without producing any income, they still have to pay their mortgage, their lease on their commercial building and pay for the everyday necessities. All of the sudden, this family that was doing OK, is now forced to shut its doors and that nice little family business they put together is gone. Taken away because they were forced to shut down. Is that fair? Is that selfish?
This isn't hyperbole - this is happening all over the country. They're considered "non-essential" but they are certainly essential to the families who own these businesses.
There is no "one-size-fits-all" to this - people suffer on either side so there has to be a middle ground. That isn't all or nothing. That is why, in my original post, I say that we can make personal choices surrounding this issue. If people are in self-quarantine, they're isolated from the infection - whether or not someone else goes out and does something social is of no consequence to them if they truly stay in isolation.
A couple of observations:
1. Viruses don't care if you are concerned about contracting it or not. They don't ask your opinion or permission.
2. Any time someone says "I know a lot of people in X and they are saying Y" it usually means the fact is either made up or massaged to make your argument. If you're convinced that it's OK to go on with life as normal, why do you care what the mass of doctors that you know say? I would probably ask you how many doctors you know and how many of them are saying this is well overblown. I have a daughter who works in a hospital (not in NJ), usually in the pediatric ward but is now with everyone else on the front lines and she says this is not overblown at all - their hospital is running out of everything, they have a crush of patients and they don't have even enough test kits to test the front-line workers.
I get what you are saying. In some ways I feel the economic damage will be rough, and there is certainly going to be a point at which we will either have to say "no, we're not going to have an economy/civilization anymore", or "yes, and some more people will get sick and die". Since there's no vaccine, and no proof this thing goes away like the flu, then at some point either everyone will have to get it and develop immunity, with a corresponding (likely shocking) level of death, or we will continue some form of this until there's an effective vaccine or better methods of tracing infected people to contain those with exposure. However, the medical system was not/is not prepared for a massive influx of people all suffering the same viral infection. It's not just about the people with the disease - it's being able to absorb all the other stuff that goes on in normal life at the same time, like heart attacks, strokes, etc. What is being attempted is to reduce new cases to a manageable level, and I think that makes sense.
Aside from all of that, my prediction: without the shut down the spread would have been so wide and so scary that most of the businesses you are concerned about would have died on their own from either the business owners dying, or people being so terrified to come into contact with anyone else that their business would dry up altogether.
I think it is extremely short-sighted to think that the average American is going to see massive infection rates and serious levels of death and think "Hey, I'm cool with it, off to the beach I go and by the way let me stop and eat at this buffet and buy an ice cream cone and stand in line at Disney". No way. I think if the government (collectively) did not appear to be in control of this thing - and I think it's questionable that they are - the freak-out would be far more destructive to the economy than the shut down. You can't convince me for 5 seconds that heavily "red" states like the one I live in decided to shut down just because it sounded quaint.
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Originally posted by @Jennifer Petrillo:
That is the key sentence in your entire post. What you don't seem to understand is that there is disagreement about what "the greater good" actually is.
As Bryan pointed out, you are in a heavily infected area, working with people who are very susceptible. Have you considered the conditions in other areas? Hospitals in many areas are practically empty because the only patients they are admitting are emergencies, maternity, and virus patients - and they have very few virus patients. Healthcare workers are being laid off! It sounds crazy, but it's true. Continuing the restrictions in these areas is arguably NOT for the greater good, even from a healthcare perspective.
@Sylvia B., I guess you're right, I was assuming the greater good was people not dying. It's easy for the few to be skeptical Monday morning quarterbacks when the tsunami didn't hit your state because of the preventative actions of the many.
@Bryan Beal, what you and the rest of your ilk aren't appreciating is the scope of the problem. You're comparing COVID-19 to influenza; you should be comparing it to a hurricane or a war.
When a hurricane is bearing down on a costal area, it's not uncommon for the state's governor to issue an evacuation order. Imagine that: by force of law, citizens are compelled to stop what they're doing, load up their cars, and use gasoline purchased with their hard-earned dollars to drive inland. Why? Not just because they might die if they stay put; that's a given. The real reason for the evacuation is because the area's medical and emergency resources will be entirely overwhelmed if too many people are in the area when the hurricane hits. If you decide to stay and tough it out, you're putting our own life at risk, but who cares? What I care about -- what unselfish people care about -- is the emergency responders who will inevitably put their own lives in danger to try and rescue you. Or the elderly and infirm who didn't have the resources to evacuate and now can't be saved because the person who should be saving them is busy saving your selfish rear end.
But COVID-19 isn't a hurricane. It's a war. I hate these comparisons to influenza. You talk about a 0.11% mortality rate for people without preexisting conditions. Great stat, bro. How about this one: within a month, COVID-19 will have killed more Americans than died during the Vietnam War. The United States enacted a draft to fight that war. Want to talk about curtailed basic freedoms? Stop for one second and think about the sacrifices of the generations before us -- heck, the generation immediately before us. My dad was drafted. He had to abandon his entire life for three years to go fight in a war. Well, this is our war, and if you have to Netflix and chill solo for several months so we suffer an outcome only as painful as that of the Vietnam War, then so be it.
And if you decide to go out now, do me a favor: get tested daily, stay inside until you get your test results, and if you do test positive, don't waste a hospital bed, just stay home.
@Bryan Beal From what we know based on watching the cycle of the virus around the world, relaxing the shutdown restrictions early would be like making a successful parachute jump, and then choosing not to release the chute at the last minute. Doing so would cause a second spike, and be far worse for public health and for businesses alike because we would most likely end up having to shut down all over again, or deal with a much greater loss of human life. Dead people don't support small local businesses, or pay taxes, or rent apartments.
If you really wanted the shutdown to be over with quickly, you would stay home until we can flatten the curve in order to prevent hospitals from becoming overwhelmed and get this virus somewhat under control. Without a vaccine or any herd immunity, social distancing has proven to be the only weapon we have to fight this virus. In the meantime, in order to support our great country as well as your favorite local small businesses that you understandably care greatly for, here are some things you can be doing to help, if you aren't already:
Buy gift cards from local businesses to use later, or to give them to friends/people in need.
Order food delivery from your favorite restaurants.
Buy a year membership at your favorite gym/rec center/martial arts center/yoga studio.
Do your Christmas shopping early and buy your gifts from small local businesses over the phone or on their website.
Pay for your scheduled services that have been cancelled: your barber, your house cleaner, your dentist, etc.
Give Blood
Help people who shouldn't leave home; go grocery shopping for the elderly or those who are immunocompromised (using gloves and a mask, washing hands, disinfecting food packaging before delivering just to make sure you don't infect them)
Donate to food banks
Start a donation match for your favorite charity. My company is doing this and we have raised ten's of thousands for our local Business Chamber's Small Business Relief Fund, as well as for a local children's hospital that is providing food to local kids who normally depend on their school lunch programs to eat.
Don't be selfish: this means stay at home as much as possible unless you're considered an essential worker, so you don't unintentionally come into contact with someone carrying the disease, contract it and spread it. Not being selfish also means not hoarding things like toilet paper, Tylenol, cold medicines, soaps, cleaning supplies, N95 masks and hand sanitizer.
Find a source for N95 masks and have them delivered to nurses and doctors on the front lines (who are being required to supply their own or go without them in many hospitals).
Be nice. The ad-hominem attacks you made to others in this thread aren't any less petty than the ones they made to you. Everyone has enough stress at the moment, we don't need to be rude to each other.
Like you, I too am grieving the temporary loss of my personal freedoms, the crashing economy, and the loss of life. But I have long passed the first stage of grief, which is denial. For me this happened when my friends started getting sick, and I began actually paying attention to the virus; how it spreads, how it is much different from a seasonal flu, how flattening the curve is the only way to fight it until we have specific medicine for it, a vaccine, and begin building up herd immunity which takes time.
Some of my friends were sick for 5 days and recovered, but not all. My one friend who is in his 30's and is a professional ski guide/incredible athlete with no underlying health issues is still struggling with it after 30+ days. His symptoms (that were much, much worse than the flu) left and then came back much worse. He was on a ventilator for 2 weeks and very nearly died. Being on a ventilator is not a walk in the park, by the way, they basically put you in a coma and operate your lungs mechanically. Today I read about an actor in LA who was a healthy young man prior to getting Covid 19 and they had to amputate his leg due to blood clots he got as a complication of the disease. It's not something I'd wish on anyone, for any amount of money. We know more about this thing collectively than we did a month ago, but we still don't know enough about it to take any unnecessary risks that could literally jeopardize the lives of many thousands if not millions of people.
Perhaps the nurses you know are lucky enough to not be in hotspot areas. However without social distancing measures in place, every area would become a hot spot area eventually. I also have friends that are nurses, and we are considered a hot spot area, and they have completely different stories from what you described hearing from the nurses you know. They describe their jobs as being in a war zone right now, and I believe them 100%. They have to work mandatory overtime, are not allowed to leave in between shifts, have to sleep on cots in a converted warehouse next to the hospital, can't see their families, and are reusing masks and being exposed to the virus and getting sick and dying at much higher rates than people like you and I. I hope enough people practice social distancing to prevent the nurses you know from experiencing what the nurses I know are experiencing. The sooner we flatten the curve, the less risk to them and the sooner they can go home to their families. We've heard from medical professionals in this thread who have given their expert opinions and first hand experience, and they recommend staying home a while longer, and I believe them too.
From what we know, opening up the economy early as you're suggesting would literally cause more people to die than need to. The result would probably be longer closures, a greater negative impact on the economy, and more loss of life, which is probably why you've gotten such strong reactions from folks on here.
Many of us shared your line of thinking at some point in time. For me it was about a month ago when the shutdown first started here and before I knew literally anything at all about it. I've learned a lot in that month and now that I have a better understanding of the situation, I realize how truly catastrophic allowing it to spread and run its natural course could be. It could end up like the Spanish Flu with many millions dying. Doing that in order to achieve herd immunity quicker in an attempt to soften the blow on the economy would not only be barbaric, but it also probably wouldn't work. The health crisis would probably worsen and the economy would be hit harder.
I have 3 young kids ages 11 months, 2, and 4.5. We've been in self-isolation for over a month. I'm self employed, have lost a lot of money from this, our kids schools and daycare are cancelled, our nanny got sick and stopped helping about a month ago, I have an auto-immune disease that makes me more vulnerable to viral infections, I'm still trying to work (from home with zoom meetings and doing a few virtual showings but not many) in order to keep $4M worth of pending real estate deals from falling apart and trying to fill my pipeline as a new agent, while still taking care of my family and my properties, all while trying really hard not to get sick because people need me and I don't want to get them sick too, and it really, really sucks. But I've still managed to do every single one of the things I listed above to help my community.
Stay home, stay healthy, it's literally the least you can do.
@Bryan Beal
i completely agree. i think there were media reports designed to scare people, not inform them. the economy should never have been shut down. certain areas, like nyc, and certain groups of people, elderly and those most at risk, should quarantine, but not those with minimal risk. we deal with new strains of the flu, h1n1, every few years without batting an eye.
@Account Closed
Comparing Covid 19 to other unrelated diseases is a textbook example of creating a false equivalency: False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency. A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".
If one of the causes of death you listed was a highly infectious virus that is brand new to the human population, that we have no vaccine for, that was spreading at a rapid rate with death rates nearly doubling every day in hot spot areas, then it would be comparable. But they're not, and so your comparison is nothing but a classic false equivalence.
@John Collins
you do realize doctors and nurses are being laid off because of lack of work? many hospitals and patients are canceling procedures, resulting in not enough work. obviously not in all areas, but enough.
most of us will get the virus eventually. we are simply putting it off while destroying the economy. yes we are flattening the curve, but only till another wave comes through.
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
Bryan, I understand what you're trying to say. However you lost me when you chose the phrase "It’s our right as Americans." Please don't take this personally, but to frame your position on claiming a "right" is incredibly shallow.
I think you're confusing the feeling of Entitlement as Rights.
And to write that you can't sit by and idly watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state is quite a stretch! Do you know what the definition of Totalitarianism is? There is absolutely nothing that has been forced on us by our Government - in the short term attempted to lessen the impact of a pandemic - that would be considered as long term complete control requiring total subservience of its citizens.
@JD Martin I literally know physicians and/or nurses in eight states scattered across the country and I've literally talked to each and every one of them. A couple are in NY & NJ and they paint a much darker picture than those I've spoken to in North & South Carolina, Illinois and Arizona, for example. I acknowledged it was a matter of perspective based on what we see and what we hear but it seems you're accusing me of exaggerating and/or lying about those contacts. That I'm not OK with. I had these conversations with them because I wanted to be educated about the subject. I wanted to know what was going on down on the front lines in different parts of the country and not take what I read and see on the news at face value. I'm convinced it's OK to go back to life as normal BECAUSE I had these conversations - not the opposite as you insinuate.
We'll never know what would have happened had we not shut down the country - there's no way to know. Predictions are fine and I understand and respect your viewpoint that this would have reached critical levels had we not shut down. Maybe it would have and maybe I would have been proved incorrect in my assertions. But in my opinion, and that's all it is, my opinion, we are close to if not already at the point where we're doing more harm than good by closing country. That's where we need to draw the line. I don't care if the state is red, blue or purple - the answer is not universal no matter the direction you believe things are headed. I welcome your opposing, intellectual stance on this and thank you for your insight.