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Updated about 3 years ago, 09/30/2021
COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
The info is fluid. One study just suggested NYC metro has had as many as 3 million with the virus. Another man on the street study of 200 walking by , 63 tested positive or 30% which corresponds to NYC metro at 3 mil. We will never know the actual demonator, it just spread too fast.
After reading your post. I say this with all sincerity, stick with real estate, Do NOT become a doctor, then you will never be in a position where you suggest half thought out ideas and opinions in place of real medicine on a patient who needs help.
Just give it some serious thought and remember "You can't kill a house"
I don't believe there is one answer that fits the State of WA, let alone the whole country. I firmly supported Stay-At-Home order for 6 wks in the state of WA but I believe it should be lifted starting May 4 for the Counties that doesn't have any increase, i.e., the county I live in has 28 people infected and has not ticked up for the last 7 days. I firmly support that bigger cities like Seattle/Tacoma should extend the restriction because they are still adding Newly Confirmed Hundreds Per Day.
Likewise, Big State like NY should extend the restriction when they have Hundreds still Dying per day, they do not have this under control, esp without proven anti-body test.
@Tom Makinen this is off-base on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.
To claim that small businesses would close on their own due to a decrease in customers is both irrational and shortsighted. Sure, there may have been a decrease in the numbers of customers and SOME of these businesses may not have survived but many of the businesses that have been shut down and forced to close would have been able to stay afloat and weather the storm.
And to insinuate that I "want people to die" is misleading and flat out false. I've stated multiple times that any death is a terrible death but if you think people aren't dying because of these shutdowns for a myriad of reasons beyond this virus, you are, once again, off-base and incorrect.
Have you ever been in a power outage and walked into a room and flipped the switch? I have. My point is that you cannot be "responsible" about your own behavior in a situation like this. You can't see where the virus might be. We don't really know what would happen if people were allowed to get back to their lives. It could end up being even worse than shutdown.
I think you should have the freedumb to do what you want if you waive medical treatment and have everyone who you infect also sign that waiver. We need to wait for testing and even then people will get sick and die, but it will be more reasonable and that is when I can consider your argument.
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
The info is fluid. One study just suggested NYC metro has had as many as 3 million with the virus. Another man on the street study of 200 walking by , 63 tested positive or 30% which corresponds to NYC metro at 3 mil. We will never know the actual demonator, it just spread too fast.
I think this well end up being true, if not more have it. The lockdown in NYC was too slow in my opinion and it is amazing to see that the media hasn't crucified Governor Cuomo for it. The mayor was advocating for it to be done earlier and Cuomo was delaying it for economic reasons but that is also something you won't find in the media. When the closure was officially announced there were already 8,500 total cases in NY with 5,100 of them in NYC. By the time the lockdown took effect, a mere two days later, the number jumped to 15,000 total cases in NY.
In terms of flattening the curve or keeping it flat I think the lockdown had an opposite affect, at least initially. If you tell a dense city like NYC that essentially half the city will be closing on this specific date (keep in mind it was announced on a Friday and took effect on a Sunday), what do you think the whole city is going to do? The city will become significantly more dense in certain locations such as grocery stores, pharmacies, etc. and just contribute even more to the spread. This then results in a spike in the curve initially and hospitals quickly become overrun and at that point it just becomes a mission about flattening the curve. I could only imagine all the operational issues that hospitals experienced during this initial spike, lack of beds, lack of ventilators... choosing who lives and who dies because of that. My grandfather who is 88 years old was told by the paramedics it is better to stay home than to be in a hospital despite him having side effects to medication, high fever, pneumonia and the inability to walk on his own.
@Bryan Beal Do you truly think life will go on as usual when there is a raging virus running through the community? Who is going to an NBA game? How profitable will the game be when 2000 people show up? How much is the fixed cost of keeping a casino going when most people are staying at home. You think restaurants will continue to get the same business? To make matters worse, once your employees get sick, you have to pay for their sick time. You think a small business can support paying all the sick hours to their employees before STD or LTD kicks in? They will learn it is cheaper to furlough them than to keep working for a lot of them. As a big business, who is going to assume the liability of their employees dropping left and right? You don't notice food processing plants are closing?
I haven't even gotten into how contiguous the virus is. The average carrier will spread it to at least 1+ person and they can do it without symptoms. Also don't forget the law of exponential growth kicks in too. If we hadn't done this in March, how much higher would the infected and death count be? There are only so many hospital space and resources too, do you think about that?
Of course I understand this is bad for the economy, I laid off my employee (I still pay her something). I am supporting my mom who is laid off and I am not getting rental income. You don't think I want people to go back? Yet I know going back to early will simply be waste of time for a lot of people, they will just end up getting sick and we are going to prolong this. We can certainly open the economy in sections, but at least give people some masks and people have to use it!
You might not want people to die, but what you want to do will certainly lead to more people dying. It's a fact. You can dispute what the death rate is, but every area will have their victims. Even 0.5% is 100K people in LA, this is in 2-3 months. Add the fact that if you overwhelm the hospital, you are going to have more people dying because they cant get certain treatments. Have you also read the side effects of people who didn't die? I don't know about you, I don't want to catch it.
And no, this is not political because I hate the left and the right equally. I can name the talking points from both teams. I am just sick of getting trapped and people doing things to prolong it.
Battle of the blue and red media bubbles!
Can't we all just get along?...nope:(
The biggest problem in our society, in my opinion right now, is all the misinformation that's being presented by corporate media. Please, please, please check out the views of the other side and then do some fact checking. With a little bit of research, it's not hard to see who is being misleading, or simply lying.
There's a concept called the Turing Test (a test to see if someone can tell the difference between a real person and computer AI) i.e. when you can't tell the difference between the computer and the person, then the computer has passed the "Turing test".
There's another concept called the "Ideological Turing Test". It says that if you can argue either side of an ideological debate to where people can't tell which side of the debate you actually believe, then you pass the test. It's only at this point when someone is well enough informed to have a valid opinion on a subject. This is a philosophy that I try to live by. So many people that I talk to that hold different views seem to only look at things that reinforce the opinions that they already hold. This is so harmful in our current media environment. Don't fall into the trap.
Knowledge is power!
We can go back and forth all day long. In my opinion there are many good reasons for both sides (opening the economy vs. staying on lockdown). Ultimately one should consider the ripple effects of all of this.
I am thinking about all of those people who just found a lump in their breast or newly found prostate cancer. All ready for surgery, date set and all, only for everything to get shut down. I can't even imagine how that must feel. It must be a tragic feeling to know you have cancer growing inside of you only for the country to ignore your medical problems to put a more feared illness ahead of you. Who is to really say my medical problem is more important than yours? Who gets that next appointment first? Is it a coronavirus patient or a cancer patient who has fourth stage cancer? What will the long term medical effects be for post coronavirus patients? We will know none of these answers until that time comes.
Once we are free to resume normal life, medical systems will be extremely backed up and it will take months if not years to come back from this. I have worked in healthcare a very long time and I know first hand that something such as heart surgery put off until the last possible moment could lead to an unnecessary possibly preventable death, so considering heart surgery a non essential surgery is a slippery slope. Who really gets to say one life is worth more than another just because they are sick in a different way? To me both people are very important. Thankfully, I am not in a position to make that decision.
I believe we are in a very unique and sensitive time. Lives are being lost no matter what we debate is the right way to handle this situation. My heart goes out to all those being affected; whether it is financially, medically or through being forced to work as an essential worker, we will all get through this together. Whether we like it or not. We are in this together.
I think it is important not to attack each other as none of the comments you make on here will change anything we are dealing with. Instead keep those lives that are being lost or will be lost close to your heart and have healthy debates. Not tearing down anybody personally is the key to progress.
Sweden took a different approach to flatten the curve. They never did a lockdown instead they focused on isolating the elder and those with underlying health conditions.
And they are saying within weeks their capital will reach 'heard immunity'.
As a 2nd wave of COVID-19 could be more deadly as it will be here when the flu season starts. Sweden won't be affected as much.
Again to me it is Risk: benefit, not all or nothing. We have done this lockdown in most places and now we have to find a way out. Is the US going to keep lock down everywhere until the Covid-19 deaths= 0? We aren't China or South Korea. And not everywhere has the issues of NYC.
As we go forward I ask you all to consider not just personal freedoms but personal responsibility to others. Not just others who might get COVID-19
Why is a COVID-19 death more important than: A death from a NOT ALWAYS treatable mental illness, a death from delayed treatment for heart disease, a death due to delayed treatment for cancer because a tumor wasn't removed or chemo wasn't started. A death from family violence.
@Nancy P. your comment on mental health shows little understanding of the true issue that is being talked about. It is not the cabin fever of the many. It the true mental health issues of those who suffer from mental health diseases like depression, schizophrenia and dementia. Which are difficult and sometimes not possible to treat and that is particularly true in the current environment. They can't just get over it, and keep in mind millions of elderly dementia patients are suffering alone now. There isn't one answer.
@Bryan Beal If you had a family member or relative that has died from COVID-19 you might feel differently about returning to business as usual.
Originally posted by @Michael Lenahan:
@Bryan Beal If you had a family member or relative that has died from COVID-19 you might feel differently about returning to business as usual.
Why would this change his believes about individual liberties?
Originally posted by @Bill F.:
Originally posted by @Michael Lenahan:
@Bryan Beal If you had a family member or relative that has died from COVID-19 you might feel differently about returning to business as usual.
Why would this change his believes about individual liberties?
Hi Bill,
Thanks for following me!
Feel free to send me a direct message. This really isn't the forum this type of debate.
Originally posted by @Sarah Sparks:
It must be a tragic feeling to know you have cancer growing inside of you only for the country to ignore your medical problems to put a more feared illness ahead of you.
Two of the many procedures I did today were for cancer. So that's simply not true.
@Afsheen I was simply referring to the many people who are in that position and acknowledging surgical procedures have been canceled. Its already a scary time and now they have more things to worry about.
Originally posted by @Mike Westen:
Sweden took a different approach to flatten the curve. They never did a lockdown instead they focused on isolating the elder and those with underlying health conditions.
And they are saying within weeks their capital will reach 'heard immunity'.
As a 2nd wave of COVID-19 could be more deadly as it will be here when the flu season starts. Sweden won't be affected as much.
The error here is you are looking at infection rate which we truly don't know. Only highly symptomatic people are getting tested. If you want to see impact, look at death rates, they tell an honest story.
Sweden Deaths - 2,200
Finland Deaths - 177
Norway Deaths - 199
Denmark Deaths - 400
People aren't falling over in the streets in Sweden, but they never had a highly concentrated epicenter in their borders, and are 5 to 6x the death rate of their neighbors when taking into factor population.
As of April 14th the CDC changed the rules about reporting deaths.
Any death that looks like a COVID-19 death gets counted as one.
Here in the US we get lots of pneumonia deaths every year close to 50,000 and now some of those will be counted as COVID-19 deaths. And who knows what other diseases that attack the lungs are being counted as COVID-19 deaths.
Are they trying to inflate the death numbers? I sure hope not
It's hard to trust a government when money plays a big influence.
@Bryan Beal
The panic around is ridiculous.
There will be more harm done from business closed....
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
Again to me it is Risk: benefit, not all or nothing. We have done this lockdown in most places and now we have to find a way out. Is the US going to keep lock down everywhere until the Covid-19 deaths= 0? We aren't China or South Korea. And not everywhere has the issues of NYC.
As we go forward I ask you all to consider not just personal freedoms but personal responsibility to others. Not just others who might get COVID-19
Why is a COVID-19 death more important than: A death from a NOT ALWAYS treatable mental illness, a death from delayed treatment for heart disease, a death due to delayed treatment for cancer because a tumor wasn't removed or chemo wasn't started. A death from family violence.
@Nancy P. your comment on mental health shows little understanding of the true issue that is being talked about. It is not the cabin fever of the many. It the true mental health issues of those who suffer from mental health diseases like depression, schizophrenia and dementia. Which are difficult and sometimes not possible to treat and that is particularly true in the current environment. They can't just get over it, and keep in mind millions of elderly dementia patients are suffering alone now. There isn't one answer.
First: Dementia is a BRAIN disease, a physical one, not a mental one. No dementia folks should be living alone period. COVID doesn't change that. Secondly, tell me how being on shutdown affects the mentally ill? Treatment still available, drugs, therapy over the phone/Internet. Mental hospitals still open in my area anyway, as they are separate from other hospitals. Fresh air and exercise still a possibility. Tell me---show me proof, not your opinion, any mental illness that being on shut down makes enough worse that it should be OK for them to risk other people's lives. I know someone who thinks it's great the meat producers will stay open because he finds fruits and vegetables "gross". IMO that isn't worth someone else's life, and neither is this.
@Nancy P. comparing mental health to the availability of meat, now I know your viewpoint. As an FYI Dementia is not a special physical disease separate from other mental disorders. It is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Mental Disorders. Other MENTAL HEALTH disorders are associated with neurotransmitter changes (as you stated"BRAIN Disease") so they also are physical.
There is no direct data now on deaths due to other causes because no one is counting anything but COVID which is way easier to count then other things. Sometimes it is counted as covid even if you die from something else. However my point is we have to find a way out. Thousands of mental health patients including nursing home patients with dementia are in facilities where they are isolated, a known risk for accelerated mental deterioration and likely accelerated death. They are experiencing higher restraint rates as you can't explain isolation to many of them and they are fall risks left alone in their rooms. We absolutely have to find a way forward that respects these peoples lives too. My opinion is based on the research I have seen in my years as a mental health professional.
Enough said. I was just trying to lend some perspective but this is a real estate site so lets go back to real estate. Most discussions won't change peoples minds anyway.