COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms

[Bryan Beal]

Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”

This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?

Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.

For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.

If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.

Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop.  Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain.  That's not good news for any of us.  But my frustrations go well beyond real estate.  They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties. 

I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.

[John Collins]

The thing you're missing, is that the health care system is already overburdened. Health care workers are not only getting infected, but dying due to the lack of currently available resources. As the USA scrambles to procure these resources, quarantining is the best possible solution to buying them time. Your little speech would be good if you were a cheerleader in high school and want everyone to rah rah, but in the real world you need substance. People are dying on hospital floors and being dumped in body pits by the hundred because of a lack of resources to combat a virus totally different to the flu. 

That is why quarantining is important now. Yes, the middle class and wealthy can complain about others not working all they want, but it is the actual workers who are disproportionately affected, whether they be $15/hr restaurant workers, $25/hr construction workers or $82k a year nurses. Actual workers. So it is out of consideration for an already overburdened system, and to not make things worse, we quarantine for a while and NOT go to sporting events, music festivals, restaurants etc. because it is the country's obligation to treat those who are critically ill whether you like it or not. I'm getting hurt financially but as someone part of the human race, I accept it is necessary. 

[Scott Passman]

@Bryan Beal  While I share your concern with the assault to our civil liberties in this current situation, I have to respectfully disagree on the particular stance you are taking. @John Collins is right about the overwhelming burden the number of sick is having on our healthcare system, and how it's been shown that many of the deaths globally would have been preventable had those infected individuals had access to proper healthcare.  When someone makes the argument that they should be able to do what they want, I think this situation supersedes that because your actions have serious consequences for other people whether you know it or not.  While COVID may be minimal threat to you and your immune system, if you get/pass it along then you are contributing to the spread that may end up taking the lives of others.  This is not directed at you, but I find it interesting that in a world where so many just want to watch Netflix, play video games, and play on their phone, when they are being asked to do just those things for 1-2 months there is a revolt. 

I believe there are going to be long-term ramifications on the economy from the financial consequences of years of overleveraging. Once the dust starts to settle with the prolonged loss of revenue, drop in stock market valuations, rate fluctuations etc., I think we will start to see the real damage that will likely take years to rebuild from.  It is a challenge to know where to draw the line in regards to shutting down the economy for the sake of public safety while simultaneously trying to minimize the economic fallout that will inevitably cost hundreds of thousands/millions of jobs in the future.  

[Scott Wolf]

Originally posted by @Scott Passman:

@Bryan Beal  While I share your concern with the assault to our civil liberties in this current situation, I have to respectfully disagree on the particular stance you are taking. @John Collins is right about the overwhelming burden the number of sick is having on our healthcare system, and how it's been shown that many of the deaths globally would have been preventable had those infected individuals had access to proper healthcare.  When someone makes the argument that they should be able to do what they want, I think this situation supersedes that because your actions have serious consequences for other people whether you know it or not.  While COVID may be minimal threat to you and your immune system, if you get/pass it along then you are contributing to the spread that may end up taking the lives of others.  This is not directed at you, but I find it interesting that in a world where so many just want to watch Netflix, play video games, and play on their phone, when they are being asked to do just those things for 1-2 months there is a revolt. 

I believe there are going to be long-term ramifications on the economy from the financial consequences of years of overleveraging. Once the dust starts to settle with the prolonged loss of revenue, drop in stock market valuations, rate fluctuations etc., I think we will start to see the real damage that will likely take years to rebuild from.  It is a challenge to know where to draw the line in regards to shutting down the economy for the sake of public safety while simultaneously trying to minimize the economic fallout that will inevitably cost hundreds of thousands/millions of jobs in the future.  

Bryan, while I agree with Scott and John, I won't reiterate their statements, but point out one thing you're missing.  You state "If I want to take the risk and go outside........then that it MY right to do that."  But the issue you're missing is that by doing so, you put other people at risk.  If you want to get drunk and go take a drive, it's your right to do so as well, but you put other people in harm's way and the government will come down on you.  Same as yelling fire in a crowded building.  You have the right to do things, but there can be (and in certain instances, will be) consequences.

This is a crazy situation, and there will be big time financial ramifications, and I agree that the sooner we get back to normal, the better, as long as we can be fairly sure of keeping most people healthy when we go back.

[Bryan Beal]

Let me address these one at a time -

@John Collins - I think you're missing the point.  No one is arguing that the health care system is overburdened.  If you choose to quarantine yourself so you don't contract this virus, that's perfectly fine.  You stay inside, away from the world around you and you stay safe and cozy in your home.  No problem with that at all.  But if myself or anyone else is willing to carry the risk and go about our daily lives (and be surrounded by others that are willing to carry that same risk), why do you have a problem with that? 

You talk about workers being "disproportionately affected" by this.  And yes, that's exactly my point.  Do you think that they don't also want to get back to work?  If someone is willing to carry the risk, they should be allowed to go back to work.  If they're not, they won't be forced to and they can stay home and stay safe.  And I never came close to implying we shouldn't take care of the critically ill - don't put words in my mouth and get off your soap box. Rah rah.  

@Scott Passman - At a certain point the damage done by shutting down the country is greater than the treatment itself.  A large number of people who are taking these tests and burdening the health care system are not sick and not showing any symptoms.  If only those who needed those tests and care got those tests and care, we'd be in a much better situation. 

And same point as above - if someone is at risk and they want to stay at home, they can stay at home and quarantine to protect themselves.  If others want to get back to real life, and we all agree to the risks involved, we can do that without impacting those who don't.

@Scott Wolf - You clearly didn't read my entire post.  Drunk driving is both irresponsible and ILLEGAL.  I specifically say "within the confines of the law" which obviously went unnoticed.  And yes, everything has intended and unintended consequences - but if we allow those to quarantine who want to quarantine and those who want to get back to work get back to you, it's a win/win.  Do you disagree?

[Scott Wolf]

@Bryan Beal I apologize for answering your public post on the forum and not reading to your liking. No need to be condescending.  My point in the third sentence of my post is that you're putting other people at risk.  So, in short, I disagree.

[Carolyn Fuller]

@Bryan Beal I think you are still missing the points being made above. 

There are multiple problems with allowing those who want to get back to work to do so before we have widespread testing capabilities. 

(1) This virus is REALLY contagious. So one worker who risks their health is also risking the health of anyone that comes within 6 - 13 feet of them. Ohio's ad is a perfect expression of this phenomenon. 

(2) When an organization has the luxury of testing an entire population, they are finding that as many as 36% of the people that test positive for COVID-19 are completely asymptomatic (https://www.wbur.org/commonhea...)! This means once folks come out of quarantine, we will have a mess load of "Typhoid Marys" running around UNLESS we have the ability to do widespread testing. Put another way, unless you want to work side by side with Typhoid Mary, you really want your co-workers to be tested. 

(3) I think the world could really flourish with fewer people in my age bracket. But this isn't about me or my cohort. This is about our healthcare professionals. You and I are sacrificing our freedom, our livelihoods, our sanity to give the healthcare industry just a little more time to get the tools into place to give folks like you the opportunity to go back to life as it use to be. 

(4) Keep in mind that right now with all our stay-at-home orders, Covid-19 is fast becoming the #1 killer in the US. That is astounding when you consider that just a very short while ago the virus did not even exist. What happens if folks like you come out of quarantine before there are tests in place to ensure you are not contagious?

[Damaso Bautista]

@Bryan Beal

You said two things that make I agree with whole heartedly 

" Drunk driving is both irresponsible and ILLEGAL"

"within the confines of the law"

You are in California so this applies to you.

California Government Code Chapter 7 California Emergency Services Act- Allows the government to make laws that we are seeing put into effect now during times of emergency IE: wearing face coverings outside, closing parks and beaches, restricting movements and crowded events.  

Not following theses emergency laws is in violation of California Government Code 8665:

Any person who violates any of the provisions of this chapter or who refuses or willfully neglects to obey any lawful order or regulation promulgated or issued as provided in this chapter, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punishable by a fine of not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment for not to exceed six months or by both such fine and imprisonment.

So by you choosing to live in the state of California and being the law abiding citizen that you are

I would think you would agree that not complying with personal restriction at this time is both irresponsible and illegal

and that not complying will be outside the confines of the law.  

You may not personally like it but its the law right now so you need to comply.

[Bryan Beal]

@Damaso Bautista and EXACTLY why I’m leaving California later this year.

[Carolyn Fuller]

The following was written by a NYC doctor:

"I admitted four of my colleagues today. Four of them. They had the usual symptoms. A week or so of cough and chills, fever and body aches, fatigue and loss of smell. They stayed at home and took Tylenol and sipped chicken soup and wondered which patient they had gotten it from. They stayed inside and washed their hands and waited to feel better. But better never came. The cough worsened, they had trouble walking around their home without getting winded, and they knew all too well what that meant, so they came, each of them, not knowing the others were doing the same. I’m in a room with four chairs housing four colleagues with oxygen flowing into their four noses. I’m used to seeing strangers, people I care about because they’re human, but a stranger still. I can maintain a detached distanced. This is different. These are my friends and colleagues. These are the people I suit up with and go to battle beside. This is my team. I’ve had harrowing experiences beside them for years. They keep me sane and effective and capable. Together we’ve saved lives and lost lives and everything in between. But now they are on the other side of the curtain. Their coughs hurt my ears more, their fear becomes my fear, I check on the them to the point of harassment, can’t help it, can’t fix it, they’re on a path I can’t cure, can only support through. Can only stand beside them and hope. They try to reassure me, a strange role reversal that belies their strength. I well up with a deep respect. I well up with tears. The front line really feels like the front today."

This is why we are all staying at home. This is why so many of us are willing to give up our freedom for the common good. 

[Bryan Beal]

@Carolyn Fuller you realize the VAST majority of people fully recover, right? There have also been studies done that show over half of those who test positive are asymptotic. Doesn’t the “common good” also let people live their lives and provide them rights to not worry about where their next meal should is coming because they can’t work and have lost their incomes? I’m all about having a discussion but this “common good” you speak of works both ways.

[Carolyn Fuller]

@Bryan Beal I agree that the "common good" includes both the livelihoods of our nation and the physical health of our nation which is why we should be going all out to increase our capacity to do widespread testing. Once we have that capacity, people who test negative for covid-19 and those who actually have immunity can reopen our economy. But as long as we do not have that capacity, all those asymptomatic people who can spread the virus need to be staying home. Otherwise, all the sacrifices we have gone through will be for naught. 

Re: the vast majority of people fully recover

Yes but the people who are or will need hospitalization are threatening to overwhelm our healthcare system.

[Caleb Brown]

I don't think this is a place to discuss this. This is a Real Estate site. No need to go on here and rant. 

[Joe Splitrock]

@Bryan Beal this is a tough question. It is finding the right balance to protect society. 

The first thing to remember is that as much as 80% or more of people with this virus are asymptomatic. So people don't know they have it, but can still spread it to others.

Where your logic falls short is the idea that you are only risking yourself with your actions. Let me use an example. There is a police officer that lives on my street. Last weekend, I saw him and several other neighbors hanging out on his driveway in close contact. One of the neighbors is a nurse and one is a plumber. You could say they are just risking their own safety, but that police officer comes in contact with many people on a daily basis. The nurse is both exposed to COVID and could expose "at risk" patients. The plumber is entering homes daily, including at risk people that are in self isolation. Consider all the people in this group and how many of them go to the grocery store. You can see it doesn't just affect them, it affects everyone they come into contact with. So although the contact occurs on private property, they are risking far more than themselves.

Mitigation only works if the wider population does it, very much like how vaccines only work if everyone gets them. 

Just because you are young and at low risk, doesn't mean your actions won't lead to someone else getting harmed. I am not lecturing you, but just want you to understand it is not just you taking the risk. Even if it mostly affects the "old and vulnerable", that statement sends the message they are either "on their own" or "those lives are of lower value". 

The reality is that vulnerable includes people with asthma, diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, smokers and people fighting any number of diseases. It includes the 30 year old mom fighting breast cancer. If you look at what they consider "pre-existing condition" that is half the population! My overweight uncle with diabetes and heart disease was on Facebook saying it only hurts people in high risk categories - he is the poster child of high risk. Everyone wants to believe it is "not them" but someone of every age and health level has been affected.

There is the other reality that healthy people in their 20's and 30's are dropping dead. There are many stories of families where multiple people, parent and children, die in the same family. This almost seems to indicate some genetic component, as much as other risks.

Ultimately the purpose of distancing is not to stop the virus. That is impossible at this point. The objective is to slow the spread, so that when people get sick and need hospitalization, there is enough beds, nurses and doctors. It is buying time to build up protective gear and put plans in place. 

All that being said, I believe there needs to be a balance. I think it is time to open things in a common sense manner. The government has missed the biggest opportunities to slow the spread. There is a better standard for best practice that includes:

- Taking temperature of people. This is number one. My business and many others are taking temperatures of employees entering and leaving work. Anyone with a temperature goes home for two weeks. The same should be done at all businesses. Let stores stay open, but only let people in if they don't have a temperature. Every morning I take my temperature. It takes 30 seconds and if I am sick, I will stay away from others.

- All evidence is showing this is mostly airborne spread. CDC was 100% wrong about not wearing masks from day one. Six feet distance is not enough. Everyone needs to wear masks. Mandate it by law and let people out in public only if they wear a mask. Many businesses have already implemented this. In China EVERYONE wears a mask and they are fully operating their economy. Nobody should be admitted to a store or business without a mask on. 

- Hand washing and sanitizer. This is already recommended, but it should be mandatory when entering a business. If someone walks into a store or business, they should be washing hands or sanitizing on entry and exit. 

- Business sanitation and distancing. Most businesses have put in place great remediation steps. In fact businesses were implementing better standards than even the CDC recommended. Some have not. My support goes to letting businesses operate, but give them written rules for best practice of operation. Have inspection and shut down ONLY the businesses that are not complying. This should be no different than any other health inspection. Don't penalize the people and businesses that are complying. Open business but hold them accountable. EVERY business will support that plan.

I do believe that stay at home orders are unenforceable long term. We already know that people are violating them in many ways like visiting family and friends. We know people will only comply with something like this for a short period of time. We need to replace it with mitigation practices that work better and are sustainable. People will be agreeable to wearing masks and dealing with distancing inconveniences if they are allowed to go to work, visit businesses and see friends or family. 

[Raul R.]

@Bryan Beal

I disagree, dont get me wrong at first I had your same opinion but after living it and having love ones get the virus and seeing how my Marathon Runner 30yo brother came very close in being rushed to hospital and how the virus kicked his *** for a week or 2 my opinion changed. Fortunately he made a full recovery but the stress it gives once you know you have the virus is unbelieavable. No easy answer, I dont have one...

[Tchaka Owen]

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Bryan Beal this is a tough question. It is finding the right balance to protect society. 

The first thing to remember is that as much as 80% or more of people with this virus are asymptomatic. So people don't know they have it, but can still spread it to others.

That alone is reason to quarantine. My former teammate was asymptomatic and only tested because her employer required her to do so. They found out she'd infected 3 coworkers without even knowing it. I'm calling "Game Over" without even hitting on any other points. There's nothing else to discuss.

[Damaso Bautista]

I agree with @Caleb Brown "This is a Real Estate site. No need to go on here and rant."

But since @Bryan Beal still doesn't get it, I will try again.

Bryan said "This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law."

You should read "The Social Contract" by Jean-Jacques Rousseau

There is an implicit agreement among the members of a society to cooperate for social benefits, for example by sacrificing some individual freedom for state protection.

You choosing to live within society bounds you by this. This is the basis for how our society and government is put together.  It is just not a California thing it is a society thing.  It is bigger than you!! If you can't figure that out then the only thing I can say is your opinion if your opinion.  There is not discussing this with you. 

Bryan said "I’m all about having a discussion"

Saying your going to move out of California is not a discussion. 

[Bryan Beal]

@Damaso Bautista

If spouting off California codes of law is your way of sparking a conversation, then we have different interpretations of a conversation. You're allowed to disagree with me, that's fine. But there's no denying that shutting down the entire country will do irreversible damage to the country, to the economy, to REAL ESTATE, to our businesses, workers, health care employees and everyone else who works for a living. Real estate markets are going to hit a major snag because of this and I think this topic is very relevant to the future of our real estate market and our ability to grow wealth through REI.

Obviously we have different viewpoints and I always welcome that.  I'm the first to give back to those less fortunate and donate my time to healthy, societal issues.  But I do believe we all have the right to be the best we can be individually, as well.  Society is not a cookie-cutter structure - we all have different needs, desires and wants.  Yes, we should look out for one another but what's best for me isn't always best for someone else.  You can't simply classify everyone together and say we all have to abide by the same "social contract."  That's not what this country was built on.  What is was built on was freedom of choice and expression.  If you think we should all just conform and all act the same towards a single goal, I have a book you should read - it's a manifesto by Karl Marx.  

[Damaso Bautista]

@Bryan Beal

Then why do you stop at a red light.  What if I felt it was best for me just to drive through every red light at 80 mph without regard for society in general or the law? With your line of thinking that would be OK as long as I felt it was best for me and I felt this was my way of freedom and expression.

This is the point of this whole discussion.

[Bryan Beal]

@Damaso Bautista if that’s truly what you think I’m saying or implying, you’re right, there is no having a conversation with you.

[Bill F.]

@Bryan Beal To answer your question "Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do?" 

March 4, 1789

I don't mean this to be offensive, but by the tone of your post, it does not appear that you have put the work in to understand our governmental system. Going as far back as Locke, it is an understood that the government is the result of a social contract where people transfer some of their rights to the government in order to better ensure the stable, comfortable enjoyment of their lives, liberty, and property. Right now, the executive branch of the Federal state and local govs are using the laws passed by the legislature to do what they feel is needed. If you, as a citizen, feel the executive branch has over stepped, in the short run can avail yourself to the court and in the long run change the laws via who you vote for in the legislative and executive branch. You can also be the change you want to see in the world by running for political office.  

You have framed this argument as a false dichotomy wrapped in a strawman. Either we let people be free and do what they want or the economy will be ruined. It is not so simple and debating that issue takes us away from productive conversation. 

We have to optimize over a number of dimensions, the healthcare system and the economy being two biggies and anyone who is willing to flatten the curve at all costs hasn't thought about the real issues that much. Further more the argument that, "your actions impacts other people, some of whom are at risk, so we much curtail your freedoms to protect others" falls on its face, since it totally excuses the at risk people from having to take any sort of precaution. 

The real question is not, "stop shelter in place or the economy will be ruined" but "how long can we shelter in place before irreplaceable damage is done to the economy?" with a corollary being "how much risk is acceptable and who is best able to bear that risk?"

[Wendy Black]

Ah, youth.  You think you live in a bubble, and what you do doesn't affect anyone else.  Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it does.  

I am SO tired of those trying to make me feel expendable because I'm over 65 and have underlying health conditions.  I'm not roadkill.  

If you choose to live in the middle of nowhere right now and not interact with anyone at all until this is over, fine.  Nobody is saying you can't.  But you live in a society that has rules.  Just as a toddler can't pull everything he likes from a store shelf, adults have laws for the good of society.  Totalitarian society?  Why don't you read up about the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, when government ears were everywhere and children reported on their parents?  This is NOTHING like a totalitarian society.

Yes, this is a very frightening and frustrating time for all of us.  However, this is nothing like our parents or grandparents lived through with World Wars.  Year after year of not knowing who among our families and friends would be called to war and be killed or captured.  Food and gas shortages.  

We have been inside for A FEW WEEKS!  That's all.  Nearly everyone is hooked up electronically.  Money and goods are tight or non-existent in some cases.  But we "bite the bullet" and pray, and someday, this will be over.  

You are under the misconception that somehow, opening the doors would return society to normal.  It won't.  There's not a single person I've heard who said it will.  Be angry, grieve, whatever, but it's going to take years to go back to any kind of normal.  I'm sorry you can't recognize that.  Many people are in the denial stage of the 5 stages of grief.  They're desperately trying to hold on to what was.  You're denying that death or suffering could take you or a loved one, perhaps despite being on the other side of 65.  Young, healthy people are dying, too, and feeling as though you've got glass in your lungs is not pretty.  

Not to be condescending, but you should kiss the ground and feel blessed that Eric Garcetti is at the helm of LA.  I'm not even in town, and I listen to his news conferences every day.  Many cities have bozos running their towns.  He's one of the few competent, encouraging voices I hear.  

What we all need to be asking is not only how we can survive right now, but how we can thrive and help others do the same.  So many people are feeling alone and lost.  As Mayor G says, "Strength and love, Los Angeles."  

Strength and love to all of us.

[Bryan Beal]

@Wendy Black never once did I say, or intend to say, anyone was expendable.  Not you, not anyone. 

I understand I may have overreached with the "Totalitarianism" comment in trying to get my point across but the point I'm trying to make is that there is way to keep the country and economy open and achieve a downward trend in COVID-19 infections.  I also acknowledge that the way I wrote the original post made those to think my points were literal.  At a certain point, as @Bill F. so poetically put it, the damage done by closing the economy outpaces the damage done by this disease.  Personally, I think we're very close to that point.  Obviously, there are many that disagree with this sentiment. 

I knew this would be a hotly debated topic when I started this thread and as I said in the original post, I want to have open discussions about this and see how others feel. 

We obviously disagree on much policy as I am not a fan of Mr. Garcetti but I'm glad you responded.  

[Sam Josh]

@Bryan Beal

You remind me of that teenager on spring break who emphatically stated “If I get corona, I get corona, I have been planning this spring break for 4 months”. I mean seriously! We are at war here and frankly let civil liberties take a pause. This country in normal times gives us a lot in every way, be it opportunities or freedom. If we are lucky to survive this onslaught, we will rebuild all that has been stalled, shut or broken. Yes for sure for a while we will have to move away from the easy money gravy that was coming our way from the good economic times. For a while there will be fewer brag bro posts like 23 doors by the age of 3 or however other gets expressed here on BP. This is not a time to think selfishly or focus on “my real estate challenges”. It’s hard I know but not a shred close to the families who have lost loved ones overnight and lost jobs and businesses. This virus does not discriminate. Every age group is vulnerable and even strong fit people have landed in ICU.

[Dylan Vargas]

@Bryan Beal You bring up some great things to discuss. You have been very reasonable and respectful in your posts. This is a great discussion and glad you had the guts to speak your mind. I am surprised at the responses you have received as some of these responses are not respectful. Just my two cents.

[Account Closed]

When I was very young my mother would say that just because a person is an adult does not mean they're intellectually mature. Of course that was pretty hard for me to wrap my head around as a child but as I've grown (I'm 50 this year) I've seen what she was telling me. It's really something to see an 80 year old person act as a child. I suppose I'll admit I've not always acted my age either at times. I think they call that an emotional IQ.

Some interesting comments about social contracts. One of my favorite subjects. I didn't think people liked talking about it. Maybe it's just a sign of the times. Some say it has nothing to do with real estate. I think it has everything to do with real estate, but that's just me. Maybe this is one of those times I'm being childish? Or maybe one of those times I see with 50 years of wisdom?

I love the TV show Nova. Can't get enough of it. There is this one where they showcase satellite imagery. The cameras are of all sorts, infrared, you name it and they are capturing the Earth with it. The two things most fascinating to me where the capture of thunderstorms and algae blooms. Thunderstorms occur on the planet continuously. Truly, the planet is electric and alive - very much like the human brain. Algae blooms happen in the ocean and attract the entire food chain to them. The point is, the imagery shows beyond all doubt that our planet is one living organism and that all things are interconnected.

Man really is like a virus. That's not a new thought. So maybe, just like we apply vaccines where we infect ourselves with the disease to stop the disease, the virus is the Earths way of fighting the virus of man? LOL. Deep thoughts by Jack Handy.

I worry about liberty. I do. I see the big picture but I see the individual struggle too. Each life form fights for it's life no matter what, at all costs, just to survive. And if that means a single plant in the desert with almost no water and no chance for a thriving life, so be it. To me, this is what I see man doing now. Willing to give up thriving for survival.

But it gets more fun than that. Suicide. Man has also been willing to sacrifice himself at times in order for the species to thrive. 1.2 Million Americans have done that so far. I suppose that's not so many as compared to all the human lives that have lived ever, but it's more than an anomaly I'd say, and that's just the American total. What of it? Is that not something? I think it is. Some would call that our soul and how we differ from beasts. I dunno.

Finally I'll say if it were up to me, I would do as some Governors have done and make quarantine voluntary. Swim at your own risk. Yes, that goes against the most common opinion, but I think it sides on the decision to not just survive as an individual, but to thrive as a species. As the old saying goes, the best way to cheat death is to live well. I'm good with that.

Be well and God bless. Hopefully we can all return to boasting our achievements and venting our struggles in real estate real soon.

(Who thinks they will collect all their rent this month??? LOL. How about next month? The next? Good luck.)