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Updated over 5 years ago, 08/20/2019
Disapproving Family - Starting in Rental Property Investing
Hi all,
Since early March I have been learning as much as I can about rental property investing through BP articles, forums, podcasts, and local meetup groups. I have started to establish relationships with local lenders, realtors, property management companies, contractors, and fellow investors through the meetup group.
Just as a brief intro my wife and I are in our late 20's, we bought our first house 4 years ago but the property taxes and HOA fee has increased significantly since we first bought in (including insurance/taxes in escrow it is roughly $1,200 per month). Luckily the market value for our house has gone up to the point that if we were to sell today, even with the realtor fees we would gain about $12,000 from the sale. Due to HOA we can't rent it out, and the timing seems right to sell for us.
We also at this moment have about $10,000 in our bank account we are willing to invest. In the search for something to invest in, I stumbled on BP and was hooked on the idea of REI since. For our situation, it seems like selling our current house and using a low downpayment (3.5% FHA or 5% conventional) on a 2-4 plex is the perfect first investment. Not only are we dramatically reducing our monthly house expenses with a cheaper mortgage, but we can bring in more income on the side. Of course, I am doing everything I can to make sure we are prepared prior to closing our first deal (how to analyze deals, landlord forms, managing properties, legal, CPA, etc.).
As I'm sure most of you do I started telling all of my family and friends about the exciting plan my wife and I have to get started in real estate investing. My parents told me to reach out to my dad's cousin, who rents out a couple SFH houses on the U of Wisconsin (Madison) campus to ask him about his experience. I called him up and 5 seconds into my REI 5 year plan he says "Let me stop you right there" and proceeds to go on a 45 minute tirade of why we should not waste another second on rental property investing. Mostly just complaining about when tenants decide not to pay or want to move out and maintenance/capex items. Telling me over the years they have learned to only to rent to junior-senior students, never adults, never younger partying students. He assured me also his cousin who also has a couple rental properties loathes it just as much as he does. His conclusion essentially was to save up to invest in large, commercial properties/businesses. He also owns a car wash and FedEx routes today.
Besides general story telling there were 3 points for this post I was hoping you could help me with...
1. Other than just proving my success later on, how do you think I can convince my family we are prepared and this is the right move for us?
2. Probably not the most unbiased forum online, but which concerns should I give weight to and which could be chalked up to my dad's uncle's lack of preparedness/management/bad apples/etc? In other words, what are some of the things which pose the greatest danger for those like me about to get into their first house hack/rental investment? I have been trying to learn about all of the pitfalls and instead of saying "I can't" say "How can I" overcome them.
3. Any other beginner investment vehicles worth pursuing that could yield a similar opportunity for return for my wife and I? For our specific residence situation unless we rented a place we would be getting a new mortgage anyways, it seems to make sense to house hack instead of following the traditional path of 'moving up' to a larger house and a larger mortgage. But I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts...
My wife's journey when I started buy-repair-hold SFHs 10 years ago.
SFHs 1-5: Are you !&$#@! crazy?
SFHs 6-10: Hmmm, this could work
SFHs 11-15: Wow, this really does make money
SFHs 16-20: So !&$#@! glad I thought of this. Life is good.
as far as trying to get others behind you, dont plan on it, everyone will tell you why investing in RE is a bad move, what you will find is, they either have a few rentals and self manage, and have horror stories, or they dont own any but know someone with bad experiences, many people have had bad experiences with rentals, but most of them have not run them as investments, they take everything personal and dont run it like a business. I have 24 locations, (27 units) most of my peers thought i was nuts, but im 44 and consider myself retired, and they are all working with no end in sight, but in their mind rentals are way too much work, I dont know I maybe spend 2 hours a month managing my managers, I can go on vacation when ever I want and can conduct business from wherever, Im going to Iceland coming up and none of my tenants will know im gone, heck most of my tenants dont know who I am, or that I own the house they live in.
If everyone is telling you how bad it is you are on the right path. stay with it and in 10 years they will see how wrong they were.
#1 Personal Finance Contributor
- Rental Property Investor
- East Wenatchee, WA
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#1 Personal Finance Contributor
- Rental Property Investor
- East Wenatchee, WA
Hobby landlords with just a few rentals tend to be the most beaten up and are one of my greatest sources of motivated sellers.
They don't have tight screening criteria, tight leases, contacts or relationships with tradesmen, lenders, fellow investors, agents etc to make it a business or well-oiled machine.
They place tenants they know of from someone else or one they got a feeling about or one with a good sob story. Our LL experience pretty much boils down to tenant selection. Ask any hobby landlord with a bad experience or that offers advice to stay out how they do or don't screen/select tenants. 'Well, you know. I get a feeling'...
Ask an experienced LL that has build legacy wealth? I pre-screen with key questions in my ad. When they email me anonymously and I like the answers, I quickly check their FB and court records. Satisfactory, I'll reply and maybe set up a time to show it. If they are interested, I then provide a written list of my min quals. If they turn in the application, fully completed with my modest app fee , I then begin to or have it checked thoroughly...
See the difference?
Who cares about your families approval! Sounds like a great plan.
Originally posted by @Terrell Garren:
My wife's journey when I started buy-repair-hold SFHs 10 years ago.
SFHs 1-5: Are you !&$#@! crazy?
SFHs 6-10: Hmmm, this could work
SFHs 11-15: Wow, this really does make money
SFHs 16-20: So !&$#@! glad I thought of this. Life is good.
Happy wife. Happy life! Glad she came up with the idea to invest in RE!! Sounds like you're a very supportive husband.
1. Other than just proving my success later on, how do you think I can convince my family we are prepared and this is the right move for us?
Don't worry about what others think. If that's a problem for you, then you shouldn't be in REI.
2. Probably not the most unbiased forum online, but which concerns should I give weight to and which could be chalked up to my dad's uncle's lack of preparedness/management/bad apples/etc? In other words, what are some of the things which pose the greatest danger for those like me about to get into their first house hack/rental investment? I have been trying to learn about all of the pitfalls and instead of saying "I can't" say "How can I" overcome them.
Screen, screen, screen! Contrary to popular belief, land lording is not a real estate business: it's a PEOPLE business. If you get the wrong people no "Great Deal" will work. People who don't pay rent, tear up the property, cause you headaches, show up late, never finish a job on time, lie about the property will destroy your potential for profit. Things are hard enough in this biz just with getting enough rent to pay the bills and have money left over to eat. Nothing in this business is a substitute for doing your own due diligence to the nth degree.
3. Any other beginner investment vehicles worth pursuing that could yield a similar opportunity for return for my wife and I? For our specific residence situation unless we rented a place we would be getting a new mortgage anyways, it seems to make sense to house hack instead of following the traditional path of 'moving up' to a larger house and a larger mortgage. But I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts...
House hacking isn't for everyone. I recommend sitting down with your wife and having a glass or two of whatever beverages you both enjoy and make sure this is REALLY something you want to do. Your tenants will be your neighbors. You will hear their dogs barking at 2 am, at 3 am, at 4 am, at 5 am. Their babies will be crying all night, and their kids crashing around next door. They will think it's okay to knock on your door at 11 PM and tell you about the toilet they noticed flooding the bathroom last week. You will be wanting to sleep in after an exhausting week of day-time work followed by night-time renovations and they'll be pounding on your door at 7 AM Saturday morning to let you know they are moving out next week because (reason X)...
All of those things still happen with REGULAR rentals, but they don't come at you from the next wall over or your front door. The good news is property inspections will be easier, because the tenants are next door. The bad news is....you guessed it...the tenants are next door and every piece of their drama will directly impact the quality of your life.
You and wife need to be 100% sure you are on board with this idea and are willing to gut it out if you get troublesome tenants, which is common for first time investors because you won't know how to screen as well. Because getting out of it isn't as easy. There are few owner-occupant buyers for plexes, so most likely you'd sell to an investor, and we're all cheapskates. Think in terms of a 1 - 2 year plan to get the project stabilized, then moving out and getting your own SFH.
@Tyler Kress this is a fantastic post with well thought out questions. I look forward to reading everyone's response.
@Terrell Garren, this is SO helpful to see it simplified in that way, thank you for laying it out like that! And I love how it ended up your wife's idea in the end! Haha!
@Scott Schultz fantastic advice, thank you for sharing your experience, it's so valuable to us "newbies" to hear from those who are doing it well.
@Steve Vaughan "Hobby landlords with just a few rentals tend to be the most beaten up and are one of my greatest sources of motivated sellers" I could see how that would be the case...I'm not sure I've thought of it in those terms, thank you for your wisdom here!
1) If you’re 28 you get to make your own choices. Love your family but ask them to respect your decisions as an adult. They might still not, and that’s okay.
2) College kids in a large college town are probably some of the worst tenants in all of REI. Learn from that mistake and buy in a better neighborhood and do a good job screening your tenants to set yourself up for success.
3) Find a 4 unit in a class B/C neighborhood and FHA it if you can. You get to live for free and keep tight watch on your tenants, make relationships with them and lead by example in how to treat the property, and living onsite makes maintenance easier. You'll learn a ton this way.
4) If you're not attending a regular BP or REIA meetup, start. Surround yourself with other successful investors who know how to solve the problems you'll inevitably encounter.
5) Have fun! What a great opportunity you have to improve your life together with your spouse. You’re in for a hell of a ride!
My ONLY regret in life is that I didn't get into rental properties in my 20's .
All it takes is one successful rental property and your wife and your family will give you all the support you'll ever need.
Pick something small like a 1 Bedroom Condo, inexpensive to buy, easy to fix, easy to rent, excellent ROI.
@Tyler Kress acting on the approval of your parents will lead to you being miserable and hating your parents.
What they think doesnt matter, and you'll probably never convince them anyway. Your uncle is a tired landlord, probably renting to students, and he doesnt have what it takes to be successful. No offense to him, but some people have it and some dont.
If I were starting over, I would do exactly as you have planned. It's the smartest way to build wealth in real estate.
Dont let them discourage you, and do what makes you happy
#5 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Investor
- Greenville, SC
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#5 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Investor
- Greenville, SC
Get advice from positive people who have achieved success in your area of interest. This business works. Meet others with empathy.
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
You are living in a home that eats $1200 a month on you. Yes, there's no question in my mind, you should sell, as you stated. But I think you should save up another $10K first as reserves. There's such a thing as no-money-down investing that sometimes works and sometimes fails spectacularly as it gobbles up your reserves. No-money investing, on the other hand, will reliably ruin your life.
When we started in 2016, all my dad would ask is -- "When are you going to sell, you should sell quick! it's a rough area, the government is so corrupt" ..... 20 + houses later "What you're doing is incredible, you're really found a niche market, you're like Chip and Joanna Gains!" .... so just make a mental note of all the naysayers, and in a few years-- see how their tone changes!
Talk to real estate people about real estate, get involved with your real estate meetup groups-- they get it, and will encourage you and most importantly be excited for you!!! Regular friends & family won't understand, I suggest keeping real estate talks to a minimum with them, they legit don't understand/care and have no interest in it. When they ask, that's when you can talk their ear off!
Honestly, it really doesn't matter what they think. If anything it should add more fuel to your fire. If you want their life then take their advice. If you want to create a life you desire then do what is necessary to make it happen even if that is going against the grain.
Your mindset should be this. I am a train on the tracks and I am heading to my destination. You either jump on the train with me and we enjoy the bumpy ride together or you stay behind. Either way, I'm going there with our without you. But they are my family. I get it I love my family too but you can still love them when you become rich. Make it happen.
@Tyler Kress not trying to diss your family. Heck, mine is the same way. But everything you do in your life is up to you. They likely learned the hard way like we all did about screening tenants or even worse. Didn't learn. I would for sure have some sort of property management company or programs to handle tenant complaints. Buy at least in an LLC for tax purposes. If you incorporate in Nevada you can move in and none of your tenants would even know you own the place. (Not soliciting but my attorney is barred in for Nevada feel free to pm me if you like.)
Landlording can really suck. You'll likely have at least 1 bad roach infestation in your own personal unit. People are loud and sharing walls sucks. You'll have at least one or two "professional" tennants that slip by and are just there to rob you and make your life miserable.
Sadly until you have 20 units and are golfing at noon on a Monday you won't be able to change your family's minds.
I remember more than once having to burn my clothes along with an entire house full of stuff with my dad because it was just... gross. Bug infestations, moldy food, fridges full and electricity shut off, pets that have never been outside or had a litter box, you name it.
My folks got burned so much they gave it up. My realtor is my dad's girlfriend so he knows any time we even look at a potential rental. He thinks I'm absolutely insane because all he remembers is horrible tenants with no respect for themselves or anyone around them.
He hasn't seen how nice it is to have a clean rental in perfect shape with a clean and respectable tenant.
My advice? Hands down take the ~12k profits from the sell and the 10k. 22k down on a 3.5% FHA loan is roughly a $650,000 multifamily. I forget what it's called but you may even be able to borrow along with that for repairs.
You'll never win the game if you don't play. And as young as you guys are it may be tough to be taken seriously by lenders. But from your post you already sound like you've put more effort in than some of the "successful" investors i know. Go for it!
@Scott Schultz agreed. Every single time someone gives me "advice" on investing or a career path i spend a few minutes contemplating whether or not they take their own advice. And if it is benefitting them. I have friends that will take put a 30 year mortgage on their home to "start a business" but not listen to me when i suggest a couple of business books i have. Then they wonder why in the world it didn't work and the on top of that blame others.
@Andrew Cornstubble I also recommend never taking advice from someone you wouldn’t trade places with, I know plenty of people wealthier than I but I wouldn’t trade places with them because I am free, they are trapped
Hi Tyler
Welcome to Bigger Pockets. I agree with you 100%. Sell your current property, take the proceeds from the sale and invest in multi-family. Years down the road, when you have lots of experience as a Landlord, you can invest in commercial. Best of luck!
Note: I own four single family houses, one two-family house and four commercial buildings.
Everyone who ever wanted to do something of significance got shot down by those closest to them. That is part of the refining process. Listen, evaluate, and prioritize their counsel. Some will have value that will help keep you on target and help you avoid fatal mistakes.
You’ve heard great advice here. Make sure it fits your Interests, Abilities and Talents (AIT), and then go and mature in each area.
@Tyler Kress I too was so excited when I first came across BP and knew that REI was the route we were taking, I started talking about it with everyone. I don't do that anymore. People who don't get it will just put doubt in your head. Make your plan, stick to the plan, and execute.
It's like talking about religion and politics with people who adamantly believe differently than you. Pointless and distracts you from the mission at hand. You're on the right track, and starting early so you are going to kill it!
Originally posted by @Scott Schultz:
@Andrew Cornstubble I also recommend never taking advice from someone you wouldn’t trade places with, I know plenty of people wealthier than I but I wouldn’t trade places with them because I am free, they are trapped
Wow. I've never thought about that. Freedom is what excites me about all of this.
I know a guy who is part owner of an oil company. They sold out for over 40mill and built it right back up even more. He said when he hits 1,000 barrels a day he's going to retire. He's been hauling rock in a dumptruck fixing lease roads lately. No air conditioning. It's mind boggling that he's still working. But i guess all of that work is about to pay off. Oil around here is pretty low at $40 a barrel. I'm sure expenses are high but there's likely some wriggle room in $40,000 a day.
I just dont get it i guess. I never want to work again. Publicly anyway. Good advice. I thank you.
@Tyler Kress
(Haven’t read all comments...)
Ignore the naysayers in life or you’ll never get anywhere. Your uncle sounds like a crappy landlord that is bad at screening tenants. Ignore your family that says don’t do it. Come to BP often for support. Be prepared for family and friends to call you a slum lord when you buy. Remember those that supported you when you’re successful. And good luck! Your plans sound very solid to me.
@Tyler Kress my guess is since this is your dads uncle, he is probably a bit older. Honestly whenever I meet an investor in their 60's or 70's they ALWAYS complain about how bad the business is. They are often jaded by bad experiences and age. Of course often those bad experiences are a byproduct of their own bad business choices. That being said, someone with experience can also offer you tips and ways to avoid their mistakes. As far as your condo, your story is typical and that is why I tell everyone to stay clear of condos.
1. You can't convince your family and I wouldn't waste my time trying. I had nothing but negativity and snide comments the first few years. Jokes about me being a slumlord, etc. After 15 years in the business, no more jokes and they are all just stuck in their 9-5 grind hoping to retire by 65.
2. It is hard to analyze your uncles business without all the facts. It sounds like he was renting to young students. I had a friend who went to UW Madison and that school had a reputation as a party school. So combine party school with young students and that could have caused trouble for your uncle. Student housing is an art form. Parent cosigners are critical. Catching the right lease cycle is important. Student housing should also rent at a premium to family housing, because all those adults put major wear on the property. Whatever niche in real estate you pick, there are tricks of how to best manage and make it profitable. Results vary depending on approach, which is true of everything in life. Also I bet if you had access to all the numbers, your uncle has probably made really good money over the years. We all remember the bad more than the good.
3. House hacking a duplex is the best starting point for you and your wife. It is smart, easy and low risk. From there you can choose next steps. You don't need a 50 year plan, just get one under your belt and see how it goes.
@Terrell Garren I laughed when I read your post. Sound like my wife. When rentals are good and cash is coming in, all her great idea. When we have heavy expenses one month, all the sudden it is "you had to have your rentals". Yes dear...
@Steve Vaughan so true, I have determined tenant selection is really all that matters. I have a vacancy now, three rejected applications. All of them would have moved in fast and had cash in hand but I said no. I am patient because I know the long term cost of bad tenants.
@Tyler Kress, I was about your age when I finally realized I didn’t need my family’s approval for the actions I take in life. Pro tip: try doing a few “big” things without telling your family until after you’re done. That’s my policy now, and I love it.
this sums up my first venture with the wife....