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All Forum Posts by: Sid Franklin

Sid Franklin has started 5 posts and replied 123 times.

 @Jai Sookhakitch:
Thanks for the perspective!  Good insight. I truly hope you are correct.

FYI, Cook County is now looking at a 1% sales tax hike.  They will likely have to do a property tax hike in addition to the sales tax to "make up" for their skipped pension payments.  After the Illinois Supreme Court's pension ruling, both the City's and County's pension savings "reforms" are very highly unlikely to pass constitutional muster.  They do, however, serve as a "reason" for delaying a final tax solution.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/...

http://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-politics/7/71/...

Here's another article on the State of CPS...more bad news...looks like the Governor, Mayor and Legislature will come up with a "kick the can" strategy until August.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/education/7/71/711968/...

Here's one on borrowing:

http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/chicago-debt-crisi...


 @Brian Moore:

This thread is more about property tax hikes to pay past pension debt due to skipped pension payments or "make up" taxes as some are calling them now. These taxes are much, much more than EAV increases or the tax levy amounts hiked annually by local governments (although you may be seeing 10-15% annual spikes in taxes in part because suburban communities are just now catching up on police and fire pension - they have until 2040 to get to 90% funded so you may be seeing these hikes for a long, long time). 

Check out these two  articles in today's Tribune and Sun Times.  They do a good job of presenting the problem as it relates to the Chicago Public Schools. 

The article discusses two tax hikes of $450 million as a fix for just next year. I can't imagine what will happen when the real tax fix for CPS is addressed plus The City of Chicago fix, the Park District's fix, Cook County's fix, the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District's fix and the state and all the other local units of government all trying to make up for their skipped pension payments.  In essence one generation of taxpayer's in Illinois will soon be asked to (a) pay for the current operations of government and (b) "make up" for 40+ years of skipped pension payments.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-politics/7/71/...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-cps-financia...




Post: Detroit- Foreign Investor

Sid FranklinPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 123
  • Votes 19

In case anyone missed this - more governmental dysfunction in Detroit.  Wayne County is on the verge of declaring a financial emergency.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/wayne-county/2015/06/17/wayne-county-financial-emergency/28886293/

Originally posted by @Marcin Talaga:

Unless I'm thinking of it wrong, I'd say if you are thinking of buying an investment property in Chicago and a 5% tax hike will make it a bad investment, it's already a bad investment.  Heck, if a 15% tax hike makes it a bad investment then you're looking at the wrong places.  If you buy a 2 flat, 3 flat, 6 unit etc. you should be buying it at a price where the taxes will go up every year and you've still got a good investment on your hands.  Taxes in Chicago will continue to go up but it's hard to see them going from $6k to say $10k over a few years span.  That would force everyone out.  I don't think we'll end up like Detroit.

Yes, I do think you are thinking of it wrong, unfortunately.  I would not be too worried by a 5% tax hike over the next few years although over the course of 30 years an annual 5% hike could be problematic as well.  The debt for Chicago, but also Cook County, the Chicago Public Schools, the Chicago Park District, the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District, other local governmental units and the State of Illinois' $111 billion dollar pension debt  is very likely to cause property taxes to jump from $6k to say $10k over a few years span.  In fact, I think we'll be be lucky if they don't jump from $6K to $12K because the size of the debt is just that large.  Below are several links to articles on the problem.  The information can be a bit overwhelming and, unfortunately is a  real downer to read, however, my suggestion is that you take the time to Google "pension debt" and Illinois, Chicago, Chicago Public Schools and Cook County and look at the debt issue and funding percentages of various pension funds before leaping into an investment that doesn't take into account the risk of a tax spike over the next 5 years.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/...

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130221/METRO0...

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/28976411/rauner-...

http://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-politics/7/71/...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editori...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-13/...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/...

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news-chicago/7/71/5188...

Originally posted by @Crystal Smith:

 If you can't raise rents to cover a tax spike, it's a lot easier to stay cash flow positive if you don't have a mortgage until the problems fully play themselves out.  There are many Chicago RE investors with no mortgages that will provide a downward pressure on rents to achieve maximum occupancy.

Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:

Seriously, everything we do as investors is a risk.  This is what we do.

Agreed.  However, we know the size of the pension debt and retiree healthcare debt in Illinois is massive.  The Illinois Supreme Court has already ruled that pension and retiree healthcare benefits cannot be cut.  These 2 decisions are final and cannot be appealed to the US Supreme Court.  We know that current tax rates cannot cover the debt.  No plan exists yet to fix the problem through cuts or privatization or bankruptcy at any level of government.  Yes, the auto-industry, Microsoft and Hollywood could all move their operations to Chicago tomorrow to create more jobs and revenue to save the day.  This seems unlikely to me - in part because these companies know about Illinois' fiscal crisis and are unlikely to commit to the state until we fix it (and their costs are better known).  The massive debt is real.  Property taxes, historically, have been the model used to pay the bills of local government.  I prefer to bake this local risk in to my cost of doing business.  You may be right that rents will continue to increase to cover even a very large property tax hike.  However, cuts to classrooms may alter current demographic trends and make Chicago less desirable than it is now.   Cuts to parks, policing and other services may  impact population growth in the City.  My likely strategy is to wait for the dip - which appears on the horizon to me now.  I agree with you, at this point, distressed properties that are very deeply discounted are the best way to go until we have more certainty on how the debt will be addressed.  A property tax spike/interest rate hike is likely to increase the inventory of distressed properties.  I would also prefer to do cash deals so I have more flexibility with rent.  This is how I'm dealing with this known risk.  Once the problem is better I addressed, I will likely be more aggressive.  At this point, borrowing money to invest in Illinois real estate seems too risky.

Originally posted by @John Jack R.:

So if Chicago takes a dip, you have a choice, sell or buy. What would you do?

I'm planning on buying in a dip (whenever the can kicking stops) so long as schools and other services don't get hit too hard and the middle class still can afford to (and wants to) live in the City.  If there's flight from the City, it may make sense to invest in the suburbs or  in Indiana or even Wisconsin.

Originally posted by @John Jack R.:

Hi just a quick question. When you speak of a MASSIVE property tax Hike, at the end of the day what does that really mean? What are you anticipating? Let's say rent is a dollar a month, by kind of a factor will the rent increase be? $1.08 or a $1.20? 

Over the next 5 years, if everything goes wrong, i.e. no state bailout or bankruptcy, those in Chicago will be paying $1.50-2.00 more primarily because of State (our Governor wants to take large amounts of money that has historically flowed to local governments to pay off the state's pension debt), County, City, Chicago Public Schools pension and retiree healthcare debt.  On top of that hike, there will be cuts to schools, parks, public transportation, police, etc.  In this scenario, Chicago landlords will be asking tenants to pay more rent and receive less city services.  If Chicago Public Schools tank (think 40 kids in a classroom), parents will seek other options in the suburbs.

Right now, CPS is asking the Teachers Pension Board to be allowed to only pay $200 million on a $643 million bill (can kicking).  This is an annual Bill that is set to increase, not a one time payment.  Mayor Emanuel proposed a 50% property tax hike ($1.50) last year but it was not enacted.  The Governor has called CPS insolvent. I can post links to these stories in anyone is interested.

Chicago has the worst debt BUT the most options for avoiding property tax spikes because of its size and the fact that its a world class destination.  For instance, it raised its fee on cell phones last year from $2.50 a month to $3.90.  That raised $150 million annually for the city.  I suppose they can just raise cell phone fees to $10 per month...  They can also build a casino, add more speed and red light cameras, impose a city-wide income tax, etc.  All this would require approval from a Democratic Legislature and Republican Governor who aren't agreeing on much right at the moment.  If there's gridlock, Chicago will attempt to use property tax hikes to pay these bills.  The good news is that the Governor is calling for a temporary property tax freeze to put the breaks on big spikes and force local governments to start controlling their costs.  Over the last 30-40 years, local governments have made government "work" by passing along any increase in the cost of running government to property owners AND by not paying pension and retiree healthcare debt.

The suburbs are in a varying state of mess now.  The suburbs (and downstate) - like most other units of government in Illinois - have put off paying their (police and fire) pensions as well.  Some are funded at 30% and other are funded at 85% (I can post a link to the latest CGFA report if anyone's interested).  The suburbs already have pretty high property taxes but most will continue to raise them to "catch up" on their police and fire pension funding levels to 90% (as required by state law).  The Bond Buyer thinks 5 south suburban communities will immediately declare bankruptcy if they receive permission from the state this year.  This problem could be magnified if the state decides to divert  funds historically paid to local governments to pay its own pension debt ($111 billion) instead of raising the income tax and also starts to make the suburbs pay its teachers pensions (like the city of Chicago has to now).  Keep in mind that the State, unlike local governments, cannot declare bankruptcy.

It's an extremely messy situation.  Illinois has more units of local government per capita than any state in the nation.  They all played games with their pension debt.  Taxes are going up in Illinois.  There's no doubt.  How it will impact growth, job creation and other important factors for real estate investors is really anyone's guess right now because there's no grand bargain or even a plan on how to fix the problem at every level of government.  The government has run out of money at current tax rates.  The true costs of government (operations and retiree costs) were hidden from voters by governments taking regular pension holidays (skipping payments) and kicking the can down the road and thereby making the problem even larger.  In theory, the can can get kicked a few more years, but the pension funds really are close to running out of money in Chicago and at the state level.  Cook County's pensions are about 50% funded (and benefits  costs are rising) so they will be in the taxing game soon enough.  Most proposals - so far - simply call for this generation of property owners to (a) pay for current governmental operations and (b) "make up" for generations of skipped pension payments.  If it's all done via property tax hikes, the hikes indeed will be MASSIVE and THEIR WILL BE CUTS.  Throw in the Federal Reserve raising interest rates while these tax hikes and cuts occur and Chicago's and Illinois' real estate bubble may pop in a fantastic way.

Sorry about this rant....but the risk of a property tax spike in every community in Illinois is very, very real.  It's not being baked in to current pricing models - at least at the level of investing that I would like to be in engaged in over the next few years.

Originally posted by @Jim Lou:

the tenants will come up with the rent. Moving is too expensive and people don't like change I've noticed. They will take on roomates and/or consolidate households. If you have an oversupply of houses then you may have an issue

Chicago does have a lot of land and very low priced housing - but in very rough neighborhoods now.

Originally posted by @Jim Lou:

I think we definitely lost out on some appreciation due to the tax hike. And they're prepping us for another 10% hike this year bc of the school district. However like other said, it's all relative. Where else can people make the income they do as in Chicago/ny/San Fran? They will pay the increased rents until the jobs go away. 

That's great to hear that your property values in Philadelphia haven't dropped because of the tax spikes.