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All Forum Posts by: Ryan Moyer

Ryan Moyer has started 11 posts and replied 854 times.

Post: The 25% property management fee was killing my STR profits

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269

Oh sweet summer child.

You are me, 5 years ago. I owned properties in Orlando and Southern Utah and was managing them myself. I decided hey, why not do this for other people too?

I'm at a place now where I have people and systems to make it rewarding, but it was extremely difficult to get there. Scaling in this business is extremely difficult and stressful as you balance that line of bringing on more properties so you can afford to hire more people while already being overwhelmed by the properties you currently have. Constant 80 hour weeks, late nights, and stress and distractions that massively affects family time. You can do it for sure, but it's not going to be anything like managing your one property.

And you've chosen probably the most difficult market in the country to do this in.

Yes 25% was WAY high in this market. Typical PM rates in this market are 12-18%, usually more toward the lower end of that. That's assuming full service. If you're only handling the guests/maintenance/cleaning and not the listings/marketing then significantly lower. There is unlimited competition here that drives rates down to probably the lowest in the country. And if you are handling the bookings/marketing, get ready for constant calls from the owner that over leveraged themselves thinking this is a cash flow market when, at current prices/rates it is not, unless they invest significant capital into theming.

It's great that you've found a handyman/cleaner you trust. How large are their teams? Can they handle 20 houses? Can they handle you texting them "I NEED YOU AT THIS PROPERTY RIGHT NOW!" 6 times on some days? In the middle of the night?

The typical way things go here is you have a great cleaner/handyman that does good work for a couple houses. Then as you scale up they get overwhelmed and stressed and either start charging a lot more, drop you entirely, or (most commonly) the quality of their work degrades substantially. You may think you'll just hire more but the reality is the good ones are kind of unicorns, and you're going to go through a lot that don't do good work or don't report things to you that they should. The reality you'll eventually learn is that you'll need to hire someone to check on their work. How do you pay for that? It's not worth it to most people to drive across town 6 times a day for $25 per check. If you pay them closer to $100, that might be your entire commission for that turn, before you've even factored in the substantial other costs that are going to come with scaling.

It's possible the charges they were drumming up are ghost charges, but unlikely. Is your property in one of the resorts (Champions Gate, Storey Lake, etc) or off in a private neigbhorhood? If it's in a private neighborhood then maintenance can be lower, but the problem is few of those properties do enough gross revenue to make them management targets. The property really needs to be doing $60k+ in gross revenue in this market to make it worth your time if you're only charging 10-15% on it. Otherwise it is probably going to be a money loser, or making so little money that it's not worth the time unless you are rent shifting, which is evil but is how the large PM companies manage to make these properties work.

Most of those higher producing properties are in the resorts. Those homes are EXTREMELY high maintenance homes. The highest in the country, probably. I own some there and own some in Southern Utah and an average home in my Champions Gate portfolio has more maintenance every two weeks than the Southern Utah properties have in a year. It's the perfect storm of low end houses (they look nice, but they are all builder grade stuff where they are throwing these homes up by the thousands every year), high occupancy with most stays having a high percentage of young wild children, and tired parents after a long day in the parks that are too wiped to police their kids properly. Trust me man, you are going to see things. Lol.  And a lot of them are going to include things like arcade machines and theaters which will constantly have issues and are difficult to service.

Do you have the proper licenses to manage other people's properties in Florida? Here are the Florida statutes. You're going to need to read them all: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm

Do you need a real estate brokers license? That is a hotly debated topic in Florida. Florida won't tell you. They'll just hand you that link. If you PM me I can give you my interpretation of it, but that isn't legal advice. You'll need to get actual legal advice on it and the first two lawyers I hired had conflicting/opposite interpretations.

Have you shopped for business liability insurance yet? Go ahead and give a couple a call and see how fast they hang up on you when you tell them you're managing other people's short term rentals. And if they don't hang up on you, and try to sell you a policy, make sure you read it and find the part where it excludes short term rentals. Trust me, it's in there. There is only one nationwide company left that will do it, and they don't cover pools while most of the homes you're going to be managing will likely have a pool in this market. You're going to need to find someone local that will write a policy for you. But it's going to have to be expensive enough to make it worth their time to create that policy, which is kind of a catch-22 when you don't yet have enough houses to cover and exceed that cost and actually make money for yourself.

You can do it for sure. Boutique smaller PM companies are without a doubt the best option for owners right now and many owners are learning that the hard way after having bad experiences with Executive Villas and the like.  You can be that boutique PM. But it is difficult to get there. I remember thinking "I do this for myself and it's not that bad, how hard can it be to do it for a few other people too?". The answer was a LOT harder, lol.

Post: VRBO and AIRBNB have met their match: Google Vacation Rentals

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269

I dunno, seems like a long shot to become some great savior.  Possible, but long-shot.

Google Vacation Rentals is not new.  It's been around for a while.  Since 2019, actually.  The problem is it sucks, it barely works, it's surprisingly unintuitive for something so simple, and barely any guests actually use it.

Which is kind of the same reason we're not discussing this on Google+ while wearing our Google glasses and talking about which version of Google Stadia is best to put into our homes as we communicate with our cleaners through Google Hangouts.

While google obviously has a few big hits like Maps/Flights/Gmail, the majority of google releases follow the same pattern of great technology, horrible interface, no marketing, and eventual abandonment by Google.  Their departments are segregated so the new ones don't learn anything from the successful ones, their teams tend to skew engineer heavy with little thought for user experience, and their products rarely integrate in a sensible way since they are so segregated.  Google hangouts was technically by far the best messenger technology ever created, but if faded into obscurity and died like so many other google products.

I had some hope for GVR at the start, but it's clearly got one of the crappy teams and not one of the good ones.  They took something that's extremely easy to design an intuitive interface for and somehow screwed it up.  It's bulky, convoluted, un user friendly, un host friendly.  Has anyone here ever booked a trip with GVR as a guest?  Of course not.  It sucks.

This reminds me of Vero.  Remember Vero?  Of course not.  Vero was an Instagram alternative that all the IG photographers flocked to because it had a more creator friendly algorithm/feed.  If you were in the photography groups, you heard about it every day.  It seemed like everyone was using it, and it was the next big thing.  Photographers spent a whole year trying to gain a foothold there.  But no one ever sold anything there.  Why?  Because it was only other photographers on there.  It seemed like it was popular, because in the photography bubble it was all the rage.  But in the broader market of actual users and real potential clients, no one even know what it was.

That's GVR so far. All the rage in host circles. If you're an STR host you've been hearing about it for 2 years now, all the time. But everyone using GVR is hosts, not guests. And even hosts aren't actually using it to book trips. Because it sucks.

Maybe they'll turn it around, but the current team they have working on it certainly seems to be one of their teams that spends all their time on back-end tech and none on user experience like all the other failed google products, so I'm not optimistic.

Post: VRBO vs. AirBnB

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269

I'm glad to see someone track this with some actual data.  I feel like so many people have repeated the "VRBO guests are older and take better care of the place" trope that there is a lot of confirmation bias there, and people just kind of repeat it.  I don't doubt that it is true for some people, but I think sometimes people just repeat it because that's what's in their head, without actually tracking it.

I think part of it is market dependent as well.  In Orlando I would say it's 50/50 in terms of bad guest percentage for us.  In Southern Utah our VRBO guests have been FAR worse.  But that's a relatively low sample size there since we don't get many VRBO bookings there.  But even with less than 10% of our bookings there coming from VRBO, by far our 3 worst guests were from VRBO.

I find it interesting that some people say the customer service is better on VRBO.  That is the COMPLETE opposite of what I've found.  Despite the majority of our issues coming from VRBO, I'm not sure I can think of one single time where a VRBO service rep resolved anything.  They just talk and deflect and kick the can down the road with "we will for sure take care of this for you, I am here to help" before ultimately saying "there is nothing we can do about this".

The funniest part of the VRBO support is the online chat, where they intentionally try to get you to time out of the chat.  The chat window gives you a short time to respond (like 2-3 minutes) before it kicks you out for inactivity.  But it automatically kicks you out if you don't respond to the CSR's latest message, even if that message is a statement and not a question.  So I've found the CSR's will constantly say stuff that wouldn't require a reply to try and get the chat to time out so they don't have to tell me they either can't figure out the issue or can't do anything about it, hoping if I time out of the chat (there's no way to pick it up, no way to have them email you a transcript, etc) that I'll just give up.  They'll just say stuff like "thank for your patience" and "I'm looking into this" and even "I hope we are still connected" (as if they wouldn't know if we're connected or not) over and over again, and if you don't reply to each little statement, it'll kick you out of the chat.

Nevermind the god-awful website/interface, the forced AI descriptions they keep trying to implement, the lack of any kind of damage protection without forcing the guest to buy into it.  It's no wonder they've been losing market share to Airbnb at a massive pace.

Post: Opinions on Hawaii Short Term Rentals

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269
Quote from @Leena Karmout:

We just stayed in an Airbnb in Kauai - I dont see how it's cash flowing. The property is worth 2.5 million, and the nightly rate is the same as my STR in Galveston, Texas. The owners did well on appreciation though - they purchased it in 2021 for about 1.7 million.


 A big difference is that their season is year round (and if anything, this is the low season right now) whereas I'm assuming Galveston is a ~6 month season with only 2-3 months of really peak rates.

But I agree it's doubtful the properties are cash flowing at current prices/rates.  Seems like when Hawaii opened back up there was a huge temporary surge in demand which helped drive prices way up, and prices have stayed up even as demand has normalized.

I keep pretty close tabs on prices in Lahaina as we love it there and anecdotally it seems like prices have started coming down there a bit.  I'm not sure how much of that is insulated to that market because of the fires (the prices didn't drop at all right after the fires).

Post: How to add my Airbnb to Google

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269
Quote from @Michael Baum:

Hey @Mark Proctor, what you are asking about is Search Engine Optimization. SEO. It is now a very complicated and involved process to appear in the top 10 of any kind of Google search.

You could spend tens of thousands of dollars to achieve this goal. It is one of the thing that can really hold back moving completely off of AirBNB and VRBO.

There is a ton of info out there so I would do a search (Google or similar) and start reading up on how to get noticed on the various search engines.

He's trying to list his property as a business via Google my Business.  It's a separate thing from search/SEO, though like most things google, they make it confusing.

Post: New to STR- How is the market in 2024

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269
Quote from @Annie Seurer:

I personally like Kissimmee because it can be very lucrative but it can be a difficult market - you'd have to knock the design and amenities out of the park, because if you don't, there are thousands of rentals that do and you'll fall to the wayside. In my experience, we found 5-8 bedrooms to perform the best. 

This is accurate.  Disney area is not really a cash-flow market right now unless you invest a good amount of money into theming AND you knock it out of the park with that spend.

They've been building these large themed houses by the literal thousands the last few years and there are a lot of them.  Just go to Airbnb and search for a place to stay and you will see how decked out all the homes are and how many are available and hence, how startlingly low some of the rates are for such nice houses.

It can be done but if cash flow is a top priority it would not be my top choice right now. Though if personal use or long term safety are a concern it can make a lot of sense as Disney will always be a market (whereas places like Broken Bow I could see fading from popularity) and unlike many markets there is almost no regulation risk since these properties are built in tourist zones specifically for STR.

I own there and manage others so have real world revenue data if you want specifics.

Post: Gatlinburg Pigeon Forge this Memorial weekend - webcams

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269

AAA is reporting that it's looking like this Memorial Day weekend will be the busiest travel weekend in history.  So people are still traveling in spades, more than ever, maybe just not to the same places, making this likely a local thing.

More to @Jerry Calhoun's point on international travel being the hot trend now, the Booking.com CEO was just on CNBC giving an interview and he said that in the past two years their bookings revenue in the US has very much outpaced European bookings (which have lagged coming out of covid), but is seeing much larger growth in Europe bookings this year.

Post: Gatlinburg Pigeon Forge this Memorial weekend - webcams

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269
Quote from @John Underwood:

Why do you think Pigeon Forge and Galinburg is so slow right now?

Inflation/Economy?

We are doing OK but hope to get a lot more bookings the rest of the year for people coming to Pigeon Forge.

Travel spending continues to break through all time highs.  This is easy to see in earnings reports for credit card companies (that continue to blow out earnings, with travel as their lead category), hotel companies, and Airbnb itself.

I think a lot of it is just going overseas now as international travel continues to strengthen.  People will get their jollies out overseas for a couple years after not being able to go there for a bit, and then things rebalance, as they always do.

Post: How accurate are AirDNA estimates & calculators for STR's?

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269

If I pull up my market in AirDNA, and scroll down in the comps to find my actual house, the revenue it says I'm making is not very accurate compared to the revenue I'm actually making.  On all of my properties.

Post: Fed says Rates higher for longer.

Ryan Moyer
Property Manager
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 869
  • Votes 1,269

Good.  Cutting rates now would be almost as foolish as cutting rates in 2019.

The fed always overcorrects.  I've been saying this for 2 years now since people thought they were going to cut in 2023.  The fed knows they screwed up by cutting when they shouldn't have last time, so they're going to be extra cautious this time, and if anything overdue it on the side of waiting.