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All Forum Posts by: James Hamling

James Hamling has started 14 posts and replied 4381 times.

Post: Renting to illegal immigrants , rent control

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000
Quote from @Frederick William:
Quote from @James Hamling:

Ok, let me preface this that I am an immigrant household and family. 

@Frederick William exemplifies the most vile and disgusting parts of human nature. And perfectly details how illegal immigration is BAD in a whole array of ways including to the illegal immigrants themselves, as a life of exploitation is NOT a life or system of any good. 

A life of exploitation harms the illegal immigrants, it harms the economy, and it harms the community via it's manufacture of poverty. 

And the statements popularized to just give away to illegals everything LEGAL immigrants spent years and thousands to EARN just makes the blood boil! 

It is NOT "just business" to look at such situation and salivate at the opportunity to use it as leverage to squeeze some more dollars from these people. It is no different than having a tenant whom you know is wanted for rape states away and thinking "oh, what if I tell him he's gotta pay me 20% more to keep my mouth shut, and oh, 40% more for a view of the next door school playground"..... It's vile, you are a bad person for even considering such.

There is things a person can do such as turn themselves in to ICE and request opportunity to go through the paperwork and steps to become LEGAL. Yes, that is a thing, always has been. 

I just can't believe people are so devoid of a soul that they look at a family packed into a 1br and think "oooh, how can I squeeze em for few more dollars".....  

And saying you inherited them is not an excuse. You accepted them as-is, there yours end of story, it's been more then enough time and you know full well the situation and are seeking to EXPLOIT it/them for profit. End of story. 

Lastly; before anyone wants to get all political with this maybe look up some facts as to who was named and remains the "Deporter in Chief". Deportation for illegal immigrants has been a thing for generations, nothing new, R, D, it's always been a thing and nearly every country the world round engages in doing the same. It's necessary to have order to things. Or else we get the kind of exploitation as championed by Fred.


 So should I just call ICE and have all of them reported and forcefully removed?  And once I have them removed , I can rent the apartment at market rate for $1900. Is this better?


I am not shocked that you boil everything down to a question of do you go epic d-bag via (A) or (B), and that's it...... 

Are you not capable of at least pretending your a normal human being for just 1hr and having a conversation with them? 

It's not a good living situation for them, not a chance it is. 

Hey, how about you man-up and go tell them your line of thinking and the 2 options. That you were thinking this was a great time to really squeeze em and get around the rent controls. 

As James said you-do-you but stop expecting some hugg's and BS telling you your anything but what you clearly are in all this. 

Karma has a way of coming round to balance the scales of life.... 

Post: Renting to illegal immigrants , rent control

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000
Quote from @Mike Day:
Quote from @James Hamling:

Ok, let me preface this that I am an immigrant household and family. 

@Frederick William exemplifies the most vile and disgusting parts of human nature. And perfectly details how illegal immigration is BAD in a whole array of ways including to the illegal immigrants themselves, as a life of exploitation is NOT a life or system of any good. 

A life of exploitation harms the illegal immigrants, it harms the economy, and it harms the community via it's manufacture of poverty. 

And the statements popularized to just give away to illegals everything LEGAL immigrants spent years and thousands to EARN just makes the blood boil! 

It is NOT "just business" to look at such situation and salivate at the opportunity to use it as leverage to squeeze some more dollars from these people. It is no different than having a tenant whom you know is wanted for rape states away and thinking "oh, what if I tell him he's gotta pay me 20% more to keep my mouth shut, and oh, 40% more for a view of the next door school playground"..... It's vile, you are a bad person for even considering such.

There is things a person can do such as turn themselves in to ICE and request opportunity to go through the paperwork and steps to become LEGAL. Yes, that is a thing, always has been. 

I just can't believe people are so devoid of a soul that they look at a family packed into a 1br and think "oooh, how can I squeeze em for few more dollars".....  

And saying you inherited them is not an excuse. You accepted them as-is, there yours end of story, it's been more then enough time and you know full well the situation and are seeking to EXPLOIT it/them for profit. End of story. 

Lastly; before anyone wants to get all political with this maybe look up some facts as to who was named and remains the "Deporter in Chief". Deportation for illegal immigrants has been a thing for generations, nothing new, R, D, it's always been a thing and nearly every country the world round engages in doing the same. It's necessary to have order to things. Or else we get the kind of exploitation as championed by Fred.


This person is looking around at all the human misery happening in LA and thinking "here's my chance for some cashflow!" I'm a landlord, too. I've kicked people out when they needed to be kicked out.

But this is gross.

If you behave this way, what are people in your community going to do when *you* are down and out?

Probably, pop some popcorn and watch poetic justice unfold.


Karma.......

Post: How slow is Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge?

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000
Quote from @John Underwood:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @John Underwood:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Leora Merrell:
Quote from @Ken Boone:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Ken Boone:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Ken Boone:

I’ll add this.  In the 2017-2018 time frame the general consensus was that given any cabin in the Smokies, most realtors were projecting income at 20k per year per bedroom. From what I saw at the time, these were good numbers to go by back then.  @Collin Hays would you say those projections back then were on target?

I had forgotten that, but now that you mention it, I recall hearing that. Probably a decent rule of thumb even for today. 

 And if we return to those 20k per bedroom numbers there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth! Because NOBODY that bought at 2023-2024 prices and leveraged it will make money.

 Yeah I don't think those numbers are going to be very far off of reality. I have a number of clients who we have managed for many years that are doing just fine at $20K a room.

I visited with a gentleman this week who bought a 3/2 in May of 2023 for $810K-ish, and he is listing it for $650K-ish.  He will probably get $550-600K.  If he waits much longer, it will be $450-500K.


 Yea that is gonna hurt! I got a buddy that's in a bad mess like that too.


I've got three friends in this mess too. And they used HELOC's on primaries for the down payment planning on 2022-2023 rents to continue to pay off the HELOC quickly. :( It's a real shame but I still don't see how people thought that would last forever. FOMO was absolutely real along with realtors being VERY greedy.

We have 5 (almost 6) in the area and are fine (definitely down) but we paid less than $300k each for all ours between 2020-2021.

Taxes and insurance are getting pretty terrible though. The idea of Sevier county being a great place to invest for low taxes is no longer true.


This is exactly why I hate HELOC's and advise to never NEVER us a heloc to acquire investment property. DSCR, seller financing, or get more capitol.

It's just horrible to risk all that have done. Sad. 


 I disagree with both of your opinions.

Using Heloq's and owner financing for the right investment can be great. You just have to purchase the correct investment. 

We just bought a house with owner financing.  Minimal downpayment and no interest. The investment will pay for itself in 5 years, and I could buy an almost unlimited amount of these deals if I could find them. 

We could have written a check for the property but why bother when we are getting 0% interest? We have it rented making more than the loan payment.


You mis-read what I stated. I cheer the merits of seller financing, dscr and other methods vs HELOQ. 

And you detail the exact problem with HELOQ for investment property. It works IF, IF everything works out right. 

If it does NOT, you not only risk the new buy but you also risk the previous assets now connected into things. It's a form of comingling assets. It greatly add's risk exposure, it compounds risk exposure. 

In the coming months there is going to be ever increasing #'s of people crying out for help because what was a "good buy" has gone belly up and now it's not only that but also the heloq they now are in risk with and that property.....    There will be people reaping the negative compounding effect and loosing everything. 

Fact is HELOQ for acquiring investment property is a HIGH LEVERAGE strategy and with that HIGH RISK. 

People have gotten lazy and negligent to that reality because of the past years boom market.... well yet again people get into weird thinking that the market of the moment is the market of eternity. 

The vast majority of people do NOT have the skill, experience or qualifications to do highly accurate market analysis projections out years, and with that know what is or is not a "good buy" over the duration of years. 

They instead do it on the moment, and if it looks good at the moment the equate that too eternity. Years go by and market shifts. That's exactly what we have going on now. 


 My bad, I must have misread that 


It was kind of mashed together so I get how could have missed that conversion of don't do HELOC and instead use any of the other way safer less risk strategies.

I mean, in theory HELOC could be great but whole problem is all the if's & but's that come with it.

And let's be honest, all of us pro's of various kinds coast to coast, how many buy's have we seen the last few years that we say "who in the hell is that dumb..... what the hell are they thinking?". 

For me it's at least 50% of the buys I've seen the last 3/4 years that are just head scratchers. Buyer is clearly got there head in the clouds.

But we see this in all the high leverage strategies too right. SubTo, there is so many crazy bizarre buy cases there like the one's arguing getting in at 110%+ FMV "makes sense" because because because...... And there all betting on perpetual 2x/3x+ appreciation rates vs historical norms.

About the only safe'ish way to do HELOC is if look at refinance, and it pencils out with a refinance at a worst-case-scenario based on future potential of rates and monetization declines, so you have that plan B if ever need be to refi it all, ok. But that's not how 90%+ of people are using HELOC's today.

Most are using HELOC's to squeeze everything, all leverage right to the maximum.

Max leverage = 0 buffer for any bumps in the road, that everything must go perfectly for many months and/or years or else the whole house of cards comes down. 

And who often would take such gambles? The novice, those least equipped or experienced to get through any trouble spots. 

It's a setup for failure. 

In 2005/06/07 it was a similar thing in new construction. People were blindly just buying anything and everything on pre-sale, because it was just known that you'd always be able to sell it at market once build was done to pocket a quick $20k....... 

Until it didn't work anymore. And when it stopped it STOPPED and slingshot the opposite direction fast and hard. 

It bankrupt a lot of people. 

Leverage amplifies results, good or bad. Maximum leverage makes for maximum amplification. 

Post: Renting to illegal immigrants , rent control

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000

Ok, let me preface this that I am an immigrant household and family. 

@Frederick William exemplifies the most vile and disgusting parts of human nature. And perfectly details how illegal immigration is BAD in a whole array of ways including to the illegal immigrants themselves, as a life of exploitation is NOT a life or system of any good. 

A life of exploitation harms the illegal immigrants, it harms the economy, and it harms the community via it's manufacture of poverty. 

And the statements popularized to just give away to illegals everything LEGAL immigrants spent years and thousands to EARN just makes the blood boil! 

It is NOT "just business" to look at such situation and salivate at the opportunity to use it as leverage to squeeze some more dollars from these people. It is no different than having a tenant whom you know is wanted for rape states away and thinking "oh, what if I tell him he's gotta pay me 20% more to keep my mouth shut, and oh, 40% more for a view of the next door school playground"..... It's vile, you are a bad person for even considering such.

There is things a person can do such as turn themselves in to ICE and request opportunity to go through the paperwork and steps to become LEGAL. Yes, that is a thing, always has been. 

I just can't believe people are so devoid of a soul that they look at a family packed into a 1br and think "oooh, how can I squeeze em for few more dollars".....  

And saying you inherited them is not an excuse. You accepted them as-is, there yours end of story, it's been more then enough time and you know full well the situation and are seeking to EXPLOIT it/them for profit. End of story. 

Lastly; before anyone wants to get all political with this maybe look up some facts as to who was named and remains the "Deporter in Chief". Deportation for illegal immigrants has been a thing for generations, nothing new, R, D, it's always been a thing and nearly every country the world round engages in doing the same. It's necessary to have order to things. Or else we get the kind of exploitation as championed by Fred.

Post: How slow is Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge?

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000
Quote from @John Underwood:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Leora Merrell:
Quote from @Ken Boone:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Ken Boone:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Ken Boone:

I’ll add this.  In the 2017-2018 time frame the general consensus was that given any cabin in the Smokies, most realtors were projecting income at 20k per year per bedroom. From what I saw at the time, these were good numbers to go by back then.  @Collin Hays would you say those projections back then were on target?

I had forgotten that, but now that you mention it, I recall hearing that. Probably a decent rule of thumb even for today. 

 And if we return to those 20k per bedroom numbers there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth! Because NOBODY that bought at 2023-2024 prices and leveraged it will make money.

 Yeah I don't think those numbers are going to be very far off of reality. I have a number of clients who we have managed for many years that are doing just fine at $20K a room.

I visited with a gentleman this week who bought a 3/2 in May of 2023 for $810K-ish, and he is listing it for $650K-ish.  He will probably get $550-600K.  If he waits much longer, it will be $450-500K.


 Yea that is gonna hurt! I got a buddy that's in a bad mess like that too.


I've got three friends in this mess too. And they used HELOC's on primaries for the down payment planning on 2022-2023 rents to continue to pay off the HELOC quickly. :( It's a real shame but I still don't see how people thought that would last forever. FOMO was absolutely real along with realtors being VERY greedy.

We have 5 (almost 6) in the area and are fine (definitely down) but we paid less than $300k each for all ours between 2020-2021.

Taxes and insurance are getting pretty terrible though. The idea of Sevier county being a great place to invest for low taxes is no longer true.


This is exactly why I hate HELOC's and advise to never NEVER us a heloc to acquire investment property. DSCR, seller financing, or get more capitol.

It's just horrible to risk all that have done. Sad. 


 I disagree with both of your opinions.

Using Heloq's and owner financing for the right investment can be great. You just have to purchase the correct investment. 

We just bought a house with owner financing.  Minimal downpayment and no interest. The investment will pay for itself in 5 years, and I could buy an almost unlimited amount of these deals if I could find them. 

We could have written a check for the property but why bother when we are getting 0% interest? We have it rented making more than the loan payment.


You mis-read what I stated. I cheer the merits of seller financing, dscr and other methods vs HELOQ. 

And you detail the exact problem with HELOQ for investment property. It works IF, IF everything works out right. 

If it does NOT, you not only risk the new buy but you also risk the previous assets now connected into things. It's a form of comingling assets. It greatly add's risk exposure, it compounds risk exposure. 

In the coming months there is going to be ever increasing #'s of people crying out for help because what was a "good buy" has gone belly up and now it's not only that but also the heloq they now are in risk with and that property.....    There will be people reaping the negative compounding effect and loosing everything. 

Fact is HELOQ for acquiring investment property is a HIGH LEVERAGE strategy and with that HIGH RISK. 

People have gotten lazy and negligent to that reality because of the past years boom market.... well yet again people get into weird thinking that the market of the moment is the market of eternity. 

The vast majority of people do NOT have the skill, experience or qualifications to do highly accurate market analysis projections out years, and with that know what is or is not a "good buy" over the duration of years. 

They instead do it on the moment, and if it looks good at the moment the equate that too eternity. Years go by and market shifts. That's exactly what we have going on now. 

Post: Negotiating with sellers to buy houses below market value?

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000
Quote from @Ken M.:
Quote from @James Hamling:

I absolutely hate Hate HATE this BS ridiculous notion popularized by various books, programs, gurus and what not that you just go ask enough, or in the right way, and someone is magically dumb enough to sell you a $300k FMV property for $200k.....

It does NOT work that way and it never has. Not last year, not in 2010, not ever. 

So the only "psychological trick" is to not be an idiot yourself. 

How it ACTUALLY works, and has always worked, is you are selling a SOLUTION. A solution that has monetary value. And you the buyer are BUYING PROBLEMS that you can solve at a net return. 

For example: 

Aged property owner transitioning into assisted living. Property is 27 years out-dated. 

You are selling them a solution that they can sell it as-is, no need to spend $ out of there pocket to get it into sale condition. This holds a value. 

And you can reno it to retail in it's "Sunday best". 

Win-win. 

Or a person in pre-foreclosure. You can help save there credit from the whammy of a foreclosure on their record for a decade to come. Again, selling a solution. 

Or a person who's maybe owned a property 30-odd years and been listing forever with no takers, clearly with a strong desire to sell but an issue of market price not working. You may be a solution via taking it on seller financing. 

SOLUTIONS. The primary reality is being a problem solver 4-profit. 

In most places they have a term for conning a person to give up there $300k FMV property for $200k via a silver-tongue..... Equity Stripping..... And it can come with a nice shiny pair of bracelets and free room and board at camp-klink for a few years.

The generalized slang of "buy under market value" is a short form way of saying "buy at a price that affords correct margin to effect what repairs and problem solving is necessary with an appropriate profit margin and carried costs to make it a net profitable venture". 

If all the books, programs and gurus were focused on accuracy over marketing the headline would instead read "Buy Profitable Problems". 

But that doesn't have the same sizzle for those never-doe's chasing hopeium hit's. And that's just the reality, there selling a dream same as Nike building a brand where a 300lb middle aged whatever feels more "athletic" cause they got the new Jordans..... 

Your comment: "Or a person in pre-foreclosure. You can help save there credit from the whammy of a foreclosure on their record for a decade to come."

I agree with your sentiment, however just for clarification, if someone has received notice of foreclosure, that immediately becomes public record and trashes their credit. You will never know a property has lates and is headed to foreclosure unless you ask them. It isn't public information. You can still help them get out of foreclosure, but the damage to the credit is already done.

Someone coming along and buying the property after the notice (which is when we learn of the problem) but before the sale, does nothing to improve their credit. The loan has already been reported as a foreclosure. In fact, long before they receive a notice of foreclosure they will have multiple mortgage lates showing on the credit report. That trashes their credit. It's taking about 6 months of lates these days before a notice of foreclosure is even sent.

Agreed = "Buy Profitable Problems".


In these instances I have persons who specialize in credit repair of this type and if we can transact it PRE-foreclosure, and even in redemption situations, they have been able to completely remove the foreclosure from credit because it was satisfied in full. 

Now, the lates are and will always be lates. The credit will not be perfect of course but it is a very big difference in credit impact of just those lates with a fully satisfied pay-off or with a foreclosure. 

It is an item that takes months, but still far better then a decade of foreclosure on record. 

Post: Goals - 200 Doors?

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000

@Don Konipol I blame the collapse in creativity and vision. 

When my wife pressed for "how much is enough" after some thought on it I had the correct answer: 

When I can play battleship with actual ships..... 

Post: Negotiating with sellers to buy houses below market value?

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000

I absolutely hate Hate HATE this BS ridiculous notion popularized by various books, programs, gurus and what not that you just go ask enough, or in the right way, and someone is magically dumb enough to sell you a $300k FMV property for $200k.....

It does NOT work that way and it never has. Not last year, not in 2010, not ever. 

So the only "psychological trick" is to not be an idiot yourself. 

How it ACTUALLY works, and has always worked, is you are selling a SOLUTION. A solution that has monetary value. And you the buyer are BUYING PROBLEMS that you can solve at a net return. 

For example: 

Aged property owner transitioning into assisted living. Property is 27 years out-dated. 

You are selling them a solution that they can sell it as-is, no need to spend $ out of there pocket to get it into sale condition. This holds a value. 

And you can reno it to retail in it's "Sunday best". 

Win-win. 

Or a person in pre-foreclosure. You can help save there credit from the whammy of a foreclosure on their record for a decade to come. Again, selling a solution. 

Or a person who's maybe owned a property 30-odd years and been listing forever with no takers, clearly with a strong desire to sell but an issue of market price not working. You may be a solution via taking it on seller financing. 

SOLUTIONS. The primary reality is being a problem solver 4-profit. 

In most places they have a term for conning a person to give up there $300k FMV property for $200k via a silver-tongue..... Equity Stripping..... And it can come with a nice shiny pair of bracelets and free room and board at camp-klink for a few years.

The generalized slang of "buy under market value" is a short form way of saying "buy at a price that affords correct margin to effect what repairs and problem solving is necessary with an appropriate profit margin and carried costs to make it a net profitable venture". 

If all the books, programs and gurus were focused on accuracy over marketing the headline would instead read "Buy Profitable Problems". 

But that doesn't have the same sizzle for those never-doe's chasing hopeium hit's. And that's just the reality, there selling a dream same as Nike building a brand where a 300lb middle aged whatever feels more "athletic" cause they got the new Jordans..... 

Post: How slow is Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge?

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000
Quote from @Leora Merrell:
Quote from @Ken Boone:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Ken Boone:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Ken Boone:

I’ll add this.  In the 2017-2018 time frame the general consensus was that given any cabin in the Smokies, most realtors were projecting income at 20k per year per bedroom. From what I saw at the time, these were good numbers to go by back then.  @Collin Hays would you say those projections back then were on target?

I had forgotten that, but now that you mention it, I recall hearing that. Probably a decent rule of thumb even for today. 

 And if we return to those 20k per bedroom numbers there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth! Because NOBODY that bought at 2023-2024 prices and leveraged it will make money.

 Yeah I don't think those numbers are going to be very far off of reality. I have a number of clients who we have managed for many years that are doing just fine at $20K a room.

I visited with a gentleman this week who bought a 3/2 in May of 2023 for $810K-ish, and he is listing it for $650K-ish.  He will probably get $550-600K.  If he waits much longer, it will be $450-500K.


 Yea that is gonna hurt! I got a buddy that's in a bad mess like that too.


I've got three friends in this mess too. And they used HELOC's on primaries for the down payment planning on 2022-2023 rents to continue to pay off the HELOC quickly. :( It's a real shame but I still don't see how people thought that would last forever. FOMO was absolutely real along with realtors being VERY greedy.

We have 5 (almost 6) in the area and are fine (definitely down) but we paid less than $300k each for all ours between 2020-2021.

Taxes and insurance are getting pretty terrible though. The idea of Sevier county being a great place to invest for low taxes is no longer true.


This is exactly why I hate HELOC's and advise to never NEVER us a heloc to acquire investment property. DSCR, seller financing, or get more capitol.

It's just horrible to risk all that have done. Sad. 

Post: Creative Financing Thoughts

James Hamling
#3 Real Estate News & Current Events Contributor
Posted
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Posts 4,547
  • Votes 6,000
Quote from @Don Konipol:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Ken M.:
Quote from @James Hamling:

Ok @Ken M. I got a ? for ya. 

And it seems that about 98% of time I mention it people get triggered and defensive for some reason..... 

In the realm of residential, why do SubTo vs Contract For Deed? 

I simply do not see or comprehend any merits of doing SubTo vs C4D. And I see many reasons for doing C4D vs SubTo. 

You want to buy with limited $ down..... Ok, you can do a C4D with as little as $1.00 down. 

You plan to leave sellers financing as-is.... Ok, you can do that with C4D. 

Control of the property, ability to reno it, lease it, sell it retail..... All these things are readily available with C4D. 

You know what you don't get with C4D, the very real risk and concern of financing calling DOS. Or having to find some back alley person under cloak of dark to agree to facilitate closing. Or fears of the multitude of other concerns connected to SubTo.

C4D has been around for ever. It's not rare odd or unique, it's time tested and so normalized that it even has NAR issued standard template forms. It's simple to do, simple to close.....

I am always befuddled why there is such rave over SubTo and all but 0-anything for C4D.  

.
Your question is a very good question: "in the realm of residential, why do SubTo vs Contract For Deed?"

Because a guru on youtube told them that with SubTo they can do zero down, no money needed SubTo with no obligation and no consequences and become rich for only $12,000 tuition. According to the video, he also saves money by doing the closings in the home of the seller without using escrow. Since homeowners don't have a clue how risky all of that is, they are relieved to no longer have to make payments not thinking of the consequences. That is one reason I believe a lot of SubTo transactions will become lawsuits.

I call SubTo a very sad scam. 

Now, traditional "Subject To", very different these days from SubTo, has a very thin sliver of use in real estate.

Some investors might choose "Subject To" over CFD or Deed of Trust either from laziness, lack of knowledge, being cheap, or in more sinister circumstances, to defraud the seller. But it should not be the "go to" technique.

One way that I have used it, is to stop a foreclosure that is only days away. There isn't time for the proper process and if I'm putting $20,000 in to stop the sale, I want something for the risk. In our case, we give the seller cash for their equity and if it is substantial equity we might put some of it in a promissory note. Then I'm out of the "Subject To" as quickly as possible by selling or it gets rewritten as a Deed of Trust. "Subject To" becomes a place holder, not a permanent financing.

That doesn't always work out though, we just did a "Subject To" where we put $16,000 toward the foreclosure and $10,000 cash to the seller, but it was taken to sale anyway. Now I have to go through the process of getting the sale unwound which includes dealing with the guy who won the bid. It's a real mess. It's happened before, so I'm accustomed with dealing with these types of issues. I can guarantee you, that someone in the guru's SubTo community would not be able to or is positioned to resolve this kind of issue.

Creative financing takes money, experience and risk and knowing which Creative financing technique to use based on the circumstances, the lender, the seller's goals, your goals for the property and so on.

Back to your question "in the realm of residential, why do SubTo vs Contract For Deed?'
They shouldn't use SubTo, likely not at all.

Only fools believe the hype from the guru on youtube. That will be coming to light during the next downturn in real estate. They didn't believe the Titanic could be sunk until it hit an ice berg.


Great answer ken, seriously. 

Personally every time I have had an instance of impending foreclosure, I got LOI signed (yes, I took a page from the commercial playbook but it works well) and I than called the finance company, explained the situation and I requested a temporary halt of 15 days to allow completion of all PA and due diligence, to then allow for an extended halt of whatever we were doing to afford for closing. 

Each time they agreed. 

That said, I could see instances where maybe the bridge-method makes sense. 

People have called me bias because I do a lot with C4D's but I'm really not, I just use C4D because it has seemed the best tool for the job in those instances. 

I've even done stacked C4D deals, layering it up. 

James, your ARE biased L O L

You and I disagree (to a large extent) concerning sub to.  But I AM biased also.  We ALL are biased based on our knowledge, experience, background, beliefs and about a million other things.  There’s no problem with reasonable people disagreeing.  I read your posts because they are informative, well thought out, based on extensive knowledge and experience, not because I agree with every position you state.  But I can LEARN from your posts, and that’s what’s important to me. 

I really appreciate that Don, and I also appreciate your position. 

I agree, there is no such thing as an unbiased person. I just try to be really upfront when it's a place that I believe others could see as a bias influencing opinion to support bias vs support facts. 

And that's a funny thing about me, I actually really enjoy finding I was wrong on something. For me it's better than confirmation of being right. Because if find I am wrong on something I get to learn something new AND I just improved myself, 2 for 1. 

So I really enjoy debate. Great things can come out of debate. Diverging opinions and theories is how we all improve. 

But not regurgitating propaganda and rhetoric to brow beat a person into conformity as thankfully few do, I have no patience for that garbage.