All Forum Posts by: Mike Kehoe

@Allan Guerra 

Is the company providing leads or would the leads be self-generated (by you)?

@Sam Shikiar we've used all three of these. They're oddly streaky and it depends on your location. I have friends in one part of the country that swear by one PPL provider, and friends in the another part of the country have terrible results from that same provider. They're some of the top wholesalers in the country that I know through Collective Genius, so I trust their experience. 

I don't know your business or your budget, but if you have a larger budget, I wouldn't make it one of your main sources for lead gen. I would use it as a supplemental tool when your other sources aren't bringing you the amount of leads you need to hit your goals. Dip your toes and test a couple providers at once.

You have to be strict with yourself with two things when using these providers: 

1. Reach out to leads as fast as humanly possible and get out to their property as soon as you can. I'm talking about responding to them in 3 minutes or less and getting out to their property to meet them same day if possible. These are the type of people that are online filling out multiple forms and have multiple people calling from them. Speed to lead is key here. 

2. Know their refund policy and USE IT. You'll get a lot of crap leads that have no interest in selling and can't recall filling out the form. There are a ton of other reasons for refunds, but you need to be diligent with it. 

If you have a smaller budget, I think testing a couple out is a good idea, but follow the two rules above strictly. 

Feel free to reach out if you have any questions. 

@Robert Burns what percent of value are you using for the check amount? We've sent over 2,000,000 pieces (most with offers) over the past 4 years. Happy to offer insight where I can. Shoot me a DM and we can hop on the phone if you'd like. 

Hey Gregory, as I’m sure you know, the landscape has changed a lot over the last five years. Direct mail has gotten way more competitive, especially with texting regulations tightening up and investors shifting to more inbound strategies. Back in 2020, I’d say direct mail was a solid option for a $1,000 to $2,000 budget. In 2025? It’s okay, but probably not the best move.

I don’t know what your mail cost is, but let’s assume $1 per piece (you can definitely get lower). Even with a really effective mailer, response rates aren’t what they used to be. In 2020, you might’ve seen 1% or higher, but now, a strong piece might get you 0.5%—and that’s on the high end. So, if you send 2,000 mailers at that rate, you’d expect about 10 leads. Industry benchmarks put lead-to-contract conversion at 10%, meaning you’d likely land 1 contract from 2,000 mailers. Then, factor in cancellations—anywhere from 15% to 25%—because not every deal makes it to the finish line.

If you do go the direct mail route, I’d avoid simple postcards. They used to work, but you can kiss that 0.5% response rate goodbye if you go that route. Right now, the most effective content has an actual offer in it. A lot of people are using check mailers with fake check offers, but those are getting saturated. I’d expect around a 0.3% response rate, maybe a little better on your first run. We’ve had solid results with offer letters.

Everything I’m saying comes from experience—over the last four years, we’ve sent more than 2 million mailers and generated over $8 million, most of that in the last two years.

Have you looked into PPL (pay-per-lead) providers? That’s another option. We’ve used quite a few, and they’re hit-or-miss, but they can work. Two we’ve had decent experiences with are Lead Zolo and Property Leads. The key is speed to lead. You must be ready to call sellers when going this route. Also, be diligent about requesting refunds when they send you junk.

PPC is worth considering if your market isn’t too competitive. If it is, I don’t think $1,000 to $2,000 will be enough to get real traction.

Outsourcing cold calling is another option, but you’ll have to sift through a lot of junk. We used PBS out of Egypt for a while and had decent results. If you go this route, $2,000 is enough to get started, but you’ll need to give them consistent feedback on lead quality. They guarantee two leads per day per caller, but “lead” is a loose term in this game.

As for texting, I know plenty of people are still doing it, but I wouldn’t. I’ve never been a fan—it flies way too close to the sun for me. I’ll let someone else weigh in on that one.

Hope this helps. 

This is probably unpopular advice, but I'd just use propstream or a similar source. We've sent over 2,000,000 mail pieces since 2021 and have tried all the data sources. Propstream absentee list and driving for dollars lists do just as well or better than from expensive list providers. 

Huh? Where did you disprove with your numbers? The link you posted referenced your one SEO strategy, which is why I referenced. Where did I ever say I spent $2M on mail? 

Quote from @Jerryll Noorden:

Quote from @Mike Kehoe:

I’d suggest you start with drive for dollars. This is still our best list after four years of wholesaling full time (we’ll do 120+ deals this year). We add 20,000 new records per quarter doing drive for dollars. You can start with much less. Send direct mail and cold call.

Good luck!

Hey Mike, 

Allow me to say this if you don't mind.
I wouldn't advise others to drive for dollars to be honest. Let me tell you why.

Driving 20,000 properties per quarter for 120 deals a year.

Put this into perspective.

Assuming those numbers are real.

Let me break this down for you.

4 X 20,000 = 80,000 properties/year to get 120 deals

this means you have to drive AND FIND 666 properties to get one deal.

That is a 0.15% success rate.

Now let's put this into perspective:

From the internet:

Now if you get one RESPONSE from every 100 properties you drive to find, you have a 1% success rate and is considered a VERY SUCCESFUL driving-for-dollars campaign.

Now what does this mean.

This means that it is considered REALLY good, above average, to get one response from every 100 properties you find.

But "response " is NOT a signed contract. How many responses do you need to get ONE contract signed? 20?, 50?

Let's take 20. That means you need to drive all over and find 2,000 (100 X 20) qualified houses to get one contract signed. And this is IF you are running a "VERY SUCCESSFUL" driving-for-dollar campaign.

So this gives you a 0.05% success rate if the data on the internet is correct  (and this is for a "VERY SUCCESSFUL" D4$ campaign).

The point I am trying to make is to be careful!

Words like "our best" are very misleading.

You are showing off numbers that are 3X better than the average "VERRY SUCCESFUL" D4$ campaign, and I am not saying you are not getting these numbers. I have no clue what you are doing so I can't comment on it.

But what I AM commenting on is you say "our best" method and therefore you are advising people to do the same.

THAT is wrong.

Your best compared to what? Strategies that have LESS than a 0.15% success rate? That is still quite horrible.

Our success rate is between 33% and 60% doing a completely different approach.

So I would NEVER advise anyone to do anything with a list or drive for dollars right?

"Your" best method doesn't imply it is a good method. 

Now the reason I am writing this is NOT to go against you. At all. I am writing this because that is the reason so may fail and give up.

They hear people make these claims, "I am doing 120 deals / year driving for dollars, and people just don't friggin THINK!!

So here they go, "I am going to do driving for dollars because this guy on Bigger pockets is succesful at it".

But no one told them that it will take them 2000 properties to drive and find.

How many hours per week is this? Most people don't have a team. 

They will drive 3 properties a day because they have a baby, work, a wife, a life, and then they are surprised why and how you are getting 120 deals/year driving for dollars while they can't get a single deal.

I know your intentions are honorable in trying to help people, but this actually does damage in my opinion.

Either way this is my humble opinion.

And congrats on your 120 deals this year.

100% of deals have not come from "drive for dollars." The other portion of our deals comes from absentee lists, PPL, and SEO (the minority are PPL and SEO). From the beginning, we've sent two-page offer letters to secure the majority of our deals. We started with low volumes, up to 13,000 per week on average today.

I'm not a service provider, I have no course, and I have nothing else to sell to this audience, nor will I ever, so this is just based on my experience as an operator. This is how we've gone from $240k in 2021 to $1.29M in 2022, to $2.6M+- assignment fees in 2023. I don't care about response rates; I care about Return on Ad Spend. On acquisitions, we focus on lead to contract, which we like to be at 8% to 9%. This quarter, we're down, closer to 6%.

Are you suggesting that aspiring wholesalers should rely 100% on SEO? If so, how long will it take to gain serious traction? In our experience (and the experience of my network that has the top wholesalers in the country in it), SEO, PPL, and PPC need to be responded to in under 2 minutes or, likely, you'll never get in touch with them. How many aspiring wholesalers with the conditions that you described (have a baby, work, a wife, a life, etc.) can do that?

Do I think they should do SEO right out of the gates? Heck yes. Do I think they need to supplement it with something that drives more immediate results? Absolutely. Even if it's only to get reps in so when the higher motivated SEO leads and the higher motivated more expensive PPC and PPL they can capitalize.

You can build a substantial "D4D" list on nights and weekends, and even more substantial with a VA driving virtually. Soon, they'll have AI drive for dollars as well.

There's no one way to do it, and to suggest there is, is harmful in my humble opinion.

I’d suggest you start with drive for dollars. This is still our best list after four years of wholesaling full time (we’ll do 120+ deals this year). We add 20,000 new records per quarter doing drive for dollars. You can start with much less. Send direct mail and cold call.

Good luck!

I had the same questions you had when I first started four years ago. Today, I have a virtual wholesale company that’ll do 120+ deals this year. Keep going. You can make it work. I’d suggest starting in an area that has a New Western Acquisitions office (I’m not with New Western). They see wholesalers as their clients. Reach out to the broker in charge of the particular location you’re interested in. Ask who they use for closings, what areas are hot, and any other questions you have. They’re usually happy to answer.

I'd suggest getting an LLC before you start. You can find a simple purchase agreement online.

As far as marketing, you should start with drive for dollars. This is still our best list. We add 20,000 new records per quarter doing drive for dollars. You can start with much less. Send direct mail and cold call. 

Good luck!

Most cost seg companies will do a free high-level analysis before you engage them. I'd have a cost seg rep run one and determine if it's worth it from there.