Skip to content
×
Try PRO Free Today!
BiggerPockets Pro offers you a comprehensive suite of tools and resources
Market and Deal Finder Tools
Deal Analysis Calculators
Property Management Software
Exclusive discounts to Home Depot, RentRedi, and more
$0
7 days free
$828/yr or $69/mo when billed monthly.
$390/yr or $32.5/mo when billed annually.
7 days free. Cancel anytime.
Already a Pro Member? Sign in here
Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties. Try BiggerPockets PRO.
x
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: Luka Jozic

Luka Jozic has started 25 posts and replied 115 times.

Post: Experience of OOS investing in Cleveland after 1.5 years.

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66
Quote from @Joshua Janus:
Quote from @Luka Jozic:
Quote from @Joshua Janus:
Quote from @Luka Jozic:

Hi everyone, I started investing in Cleveland about a year and a half ago and have acquired 6 LTRs (SFH and MFH) using mainly the BRRRR method in C areas. I've done fairly big renovations where in most cases, Im replacing almost everything in/on the house. First year has been tons of learning and despite all the research and preparation I did, I still did mistakes and learned things the hard way. I went with one of the biggest PMs that everybody vouched for, yet it took them forever to even place a tenant, and once they did, the tenants never paid on time. Additionally, despite the houses being newly renovated, every month there were new expenses and something breaking, almost as if they want me to not cashflow. The PM said they don't up-charge, but most repairs and expenses were ridiculously high. The result of this? No cashflow, in fact Im in the negative for almost every property so far, and yes I do put aside money for vacancies, capex, and repairs. I finally switched PMs recently and the new one seems much better but Im still getting pretty frequent repairs though much cheaper than the previous PM. The problem is that in this market, getting $2-300 a month cashflow is about as good as it gets, and one furnace, one turnover or whatever and that takes out the cashflow for that year, or even puts you in the negative.

Lets just say the experience hasn't been great, yet. Im trying to stay hopeful that it will turn around but I just keep receiving blow after blow. Just recently got hit with a 10K sewer line repair. I know, its my fault I didn't inspect the sewer line but in my defense, having such inspection contingencies makes it nearly impossible to find a viable BRRRR deal, as there are several investors lined up ready to pay more, in cash, and no contingencies. Im now starting to doubt wether or not Cleveland is actually a good market to invest in? Majority of the houses are old and require frequent repairs in addition to a poor tenant base that can't pay on time and don't care about their credit. On paper it looks good, but the reality is a different story. Im wondering if other markets might be better, with somewhat newer houses and higher quality tenants? But the thing with those markets are you'd be happy to break even, so even if repairs are less and tenant quality is better, I feel like it would end up being the same result.

For those of you that invest in Cleveland, do you have similar experiences? If not, what do you think you might be doing differently to make it work better?


 I've found that replacing the capex up front in Cleveland creates way less headaches / maintenance requests over time. This is the renovation criteria I use in order to make sure the place is clean, safe and actually ready to rent. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MreMNvXxPZy7AaqMGMFPVunQ...


See since I've been doing BRRRR, thats generally what I have been doing but somehow something always manages to come up. But the main issue has been tenant quality. I've just realized Cleveland is not the right place for me so Im getting out.


 There are plenty of good tenants here. Almost 3/4 of the population in the city of Cle rent. If they are all bad the city is doomed. 


Of course they're not all bad. But I do think that the overall quality is very low compared to the rest of the US. Median individual income is 25K a year, and the median rent is $1200/mo. That tells me the majority is gonna struggle to pay rent. 

Post: Experience of OOS investing in Cleveland after 1.5 years.

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66
Quote from @Joshua Janus:
Quote from @Luka Jozic:

Hi everyone, I started investing in Cleveland about a year and a half ago and have acquired 6 LTRs (SFH and MFH) using mainly the BRRRR method in C areas. I've done fairly big renovations where in most cases, Im replacing almost everything in/on the house. First year has been tons of learning and despite all the research and preparation I did, I still did mistakes and learned things the hard way. I went with one of the biggest PMs that everybody vouched for, yet it took them forever to even place a tenant, and once they did, the tenants never paid on time. Additionally, despite the houses being newly renovated, every month there were new expenses and something breaking, almost as if they want me to not cashflow. The PM said they don't up-charge, but most repairs and expenses were ridiculously high. The result of this? No cashflow, in fact Im in the negative for almost every property so far, and yes I do put aside money for vacancies, capex, and repairs. I finally switched PMs recently and the new one seems much better but Im still getting pretty frequent repairs though much cheaper than the previous PM. The problem is that in this market, getting $2-300 a month cashflow is about as good as it gets, and one furnace, one turnover or whatever and that takes out the cashflow for that year, or even puts you in the negative.

Lets just say the experience hasn't been great, yet. Im trying to stay hopeful that it will turn around but I just keep receiving blow after blow. Just recently got hit with a 10K sewer line repair. I know, its my fault I didn't inspect the sewer line but in my defense, having such inspection contingencies makes it nearly impossible to find a viable BRRRR deal, as there are several investors lined up ready to pay more, in cash, and no contingencies. Im now starting to doubt wether or not Cleveland is actually a good market to invest in? Majority of the houses are old and require frequent repairs in addition to a poor tenant base that can't pay on time and don't care about their credit. On paper it looks good, but the reality is a different story. Im wondering if other markets might be better, with somewhat newer houses and higher quality tenants? But the thing with those markets are you'd be happy to break even, so even if repairs are less and tenant quality is better, I feel like it would end up being the same result.

For those of you that invest in Cleveland, do you have similar experiences? If not, what do you think you might be doing differently to make it work better?


 I've found that replacing the capex up front in Cleveland creates way less headaches / maintenance requests over time. This is the renovation criteria I use in order to make sure the place is clean, safe and actually ready to rent. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MreMNvXxPZy7AaqMGMFPVunQ...


See since I've been doing BRRRR, thats generally what I have been doing but somehow something always manages to come up. But the main issue has been tenant quality. I've just realized Cleveland is not the right place for me so Im getting out.

Post: Detroit or Cleveland?

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66
Quote from @Jerry Maliszewski:

According to Fannie Mae, 10 million people will be moving to the midwest by 2030 all seeking smaller downtowns.  Both will do very well for years to come.


That might be true but that doesn't mean they're moving to Cleveland or Detroit. Data suggests that both of these places have been on a decline for years. I don't think you can say a place is doing "very well" when they're among the poorest cities in the US and has among the highest foreclosure rates in the country. That to me suggest anything but "doing very well"... Maybe have a look at reventure.app and see what the data says about these places.

Post: Detroit or Cleveland?

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66

Neither, both will be a headache and neither will make you rich.

Post: Investing Out Of State - Starting

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66
Quote from @Isaac Terry:

I was looking at homes in Akron & Clevand, they are affordable but since I'm out of state I'm not sure about pulling the trigger on investing. 

Any advice regarding the pros and cons of these two cities? And would it be worthwhile investing to rent?

Cleveland looks good on paper, but its not as good in reality. It is one of the poorest places in all of the US. Tenant quality is extremely low even in so called C areas. How does anyone expect people in a place with an average income of 25K a year to pay an average of $1400/mo rent? I would highly recommend to look somewhere that people actually want to live instead of where they have to. 

Post: Any successful BRRR in OHio?

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66
Quote from @Bob Stevens:

UMM YESS, for the last 10 years. Now sure the high cash flow of 30% nets have decreased as pricing has doubled, tripled (all in 35- 40k, now, 100k-140k) and much more so your assumption is incorrect. (Cleveland markets) but sill great ROI. I just closed on a 3 br all in will be 65k ( pp 40k reno 25k) YES all in, Rent will be 1600. value is about 125k. Closing today on a duplex, all in 90k, rents 900/900, value about 130k This is my norm. I can provide 100s of examples.

BTW look how incorrect you were, see this is what happens when people sit on the internet and THINK they are " learning" 

44109 (median home price went from roughly 50k to 125k in 8 years)

https://www.zillow.com/home-values/77009/cleveland-oh-44109/

44102 (median home price went from roughly 30k to 120k in 8 years)

https://www.zillow.com/home-values/77002/cleveland-oh-44102/

44106 (median home price went from roughly 100k to 200k in 8 years)

https://www.zillow.com/home-values/77006/cleveland-oh-44106/

All the best


Thats great but how has the income changed over the past 8 year? Not too much. Cleveland is still one of the poorest cities in America with a median income of around $37K per household! How are they supposed to pay $1600/mo in rent? You don't need to be a genius to see how that is an issue. It sounds like you've made it work well in Cleveland, but for rookies I think its better to go elsewhere. 

Post: Section 8 BRRRR in Cleveland Metro

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66

Id say after 2 years of investing in Cleveland, I wouldn't recommend it. Better go somewhere where people actually want to live and not everybody is broke. It has one of the highest poverty rates in the country, declining population, and not much going for it. It looks good on paper, but its not in reality. A higher quality property in a better neighborhood in a better city is gonna outperform any Cleveland property in the long run. We just get to focused on cashflow and can't see it. I've been through several property managers and properties in various areas and its always the same ****, late or no rent, expensive turnovers, and just lots of headaches..

Post: Does bi-weekly payments make sense in a cash-flow market?

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

for me I like to square off what payments I do have these days.

So like on my houses mortgage for example  if the payment was 2800 i am going to send in 3k a month and forget about trying to do it twice a week etc.

and do that on all mortgages.. I find couple hundo on a mortgage we just piddle that money away any way might as well do some good with it..

I would also look at snowballing one property at a time.. get one paid off then the next then the next.. paid off RE is where you want to be if you really plan on using this stuff for retirement cash flow..


 For me it is. Im buying these properties so that in several years from now, they can provide solid cash flow that I can live off of. This is my substitute for 401K. So yeah the sooner they're paid off the sooner they will cashflow better, and I'd rather have that happen in 21 years rather than 30 so I think it makes sense. 

Post: Does bi-weekly payments make sense in a cash-flow market?

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66

I understand that doing bi-weekly simply means you are doing 13 mortgage payments a year as opposed to 12. So you get one payment each year that goes straight to principal. I've read other threads on the topic and it seems like the obvious answer is that it depends, as doing bi-weekly pays off your mortgage faster but means less available cash for other investments.

Say we have a typical Cleveland property worth around 150K, assume the monthly PIMI is $1000 and that annual cashflow is $5000. According to my lender, if I do bi-weekly I would pay off the mortgage in 21 years as opposed to 30, shaving off 9 years. That means in 21 years I will have a fully paid off property, and can now cash out refi and buy X more properties. However, by doing so, I'll be paying $1000 extra each year towards my mortgage, reducing my cashflow to $4000/year. So after 21 years I will have either:
1. $21K extra to invest (not even enough for 1 down payment really) if I do monthly.
2. A fully paid off property which now should be worth at least $300K with appreciation, I can access 75% of that with a cash out refi so roughly $225K - refi costs.

To me, its a no brainer to do bi-weekly IF you plan to keep the house for that long AND you do not plan to refinance (rate or cash out). So the follow up question is, does it make sense to keep a property for that long and not dig into its equity for 21 years? What are your thoughts on this?

Post: Experience of OOS investing in Cleveland after 1.5 years.

Luka JozicPosted
  • New to Real Estate
  • Posts 116
  • Votes 66
Quote from @Bob Stevens:
Quote from @Michael P.:
Quote from @Bob Stevens:
Quote from @Michael P.:

Brooo I told you that toledo one was a D area


 Irrelevant what area it is, Its ALL about price, screening and doing the reno correctly 

Lets "agree to disagree". I think investing out of state in a D area is a bad idea. C area also a bad idea but maybe borderline if bought at a large discount. B area is the best for investing out of state.


 100% irrelevant IF you have a team. I live OOS and have been doing deals in the Cleveland markets for many years. Closing on another this week. I have props that many would call the hood, but I do not worry. 


 So how do you get stable properties in "the hood"? What is it that your team does? I mean yes you do good rehabs of course. But how do you get solid tenants in there? Do you only do S8 or do you screen them in a specific way? What's the magic formula Bob?