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All Forum Posts by: Carlos Ptriawan

Carlos Ptriawan has started 84 posts and replied 7088 times.

Quote from @Giles D.:

Appreciate the brutal honest! Understand that people trust other people to do what they say they were going to do. 

The fact that IR's accelerated outside of the worst case scenario models, even outside of a 2 SD, didn't have anything to do with it nor the fact that the local jurisdiction decided to extend the covid moratorium for an extra year resulting in no rent collection for a large portion of the MF property, was certainly factors not considered when applying basic math to the forecasting. 

I may have been too dumb to understand that I couldn't control 2 unprecedented future events, please educate us on how you do it as I for one would be fascinated to learn how you do it.  @Carlos Ptriawan


 Usually I'm attacked when I say thing like this, but well yes I'll try to explain from the big picture and mini picture here and kind of mixed bag PoV okay ;-) lol.

in big picture, back to basic
first of all , the relationship between the borrower and the lender ; are never equal.
The risk modelling is vastly different from how a loan is structured, no matter what it is.

second, All assets have intrinsic value and extrinsic value. A 50x more beautiful single family in Montgomery AL would be priced 1/10 compared to a similar house in CA. There's ceiling in CRE, but no ceiling in single family.

third,the valuation of CRE is solely follows the actual rent it received

so lets go back to the first one , this has nothing to do with interest rate at beginning, but lets give comparison. 

A fixed-rate 30 years with a 2% rate, even without an interest rate hike, the borrower would have a better return profile than the lender. The lender is throwing us money for free.  We know SF owners would have a better risk/reward profile because appreciations are typically 150-200% higher than inflation rate. Even with increasing rate, home price may not go down because it's a fixed rate for 30 years. This is the safest loan type for borrowers in the planet. 

On the other hand, CRE appreciation is limited by the rent factor. The lender is always winning or has way way better risk/return profile compared to the borrower (GP/LP). Because a CRE valuation is based on income, then we make a valuation indicator called cap rate. Cap rate is essentially just a ratio between income and price to buy. Essentially, on this model, the model only works if the cap rate has a slight positive margin compare to the interest rate. In 2009 we have a cap rate of 8-9% for certain asset class and the interest rate is 3%, this gap is actually one that makes you money.

However, and this is the big however if cap rate is falling high enough (aka) valuation going up too high too fast because of overbidding (such as in 2020 era), then even without an interest rate hike, your project risk profile is way higher because your upside is way limited. Why the upside is limited? because next buyer can't justify buying your asset in cap rate 1 or 2 because if you do then essentially there's no return given to investor.

Now, what is the most riskiest type of lending ? For the borrower, the riskiest are short-term loan, the lender approves the lend with DSCR 0.20-1.5x, but I checked it's very typical to have DSCR 0.80x. In these circumstances and may bridge lender and CRE debt rating agencies, already know from the beginning that the property has bigger chance of going to fail. I But because the lender can allocate those riskier loan into bunch of other mortgage loan that's more "safer", the lender can somehow reduce their risk, also by requiring the borrower to purchase interest rate caps as hedges and so on. So lenders are way smarter than the GP when it comes to riskier loan.

In 2022, Fed increased the rate by 500 bps, automatically asset pricing should fall by 30-40%. This is very straightforward because those loans are short-term. A 100bps interest rate hike is equal to 5-10% reduction in asset valuation give or take. We're in a territory where the cap rate is 3-4% and the interest rate is 7-9% , of course the equity would be wiped out.

If one fellow has good understanding about how the lending work this problem is very easy to be avoid. Again, it's not 100% of the fault of the GP.

Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Chris Seveney:

@Becca F.

Honestly this is why the govt needs to change the criteria for an accredited investor

It has not changed the amounts in like 40 years and many people making $250k a year cannot afford to lose $50 or $100k which is happening now as many use the “accredited investor” as a status but the only status is you can lose $ and govt doesn’t care.

Besides that the jobs act introduced crowdfunding and regulation a+ that allows people to invest hundreds or thousands of dollars at a time not $50k and accepts non accredited.


the other thing is I flat guarantee that many of these syndication just take the investor word for being accredited. And many lPs fibbed about it and are not accredited.. I know in the two syndication's I have invested in they required a letter from my CPA that confirmed that Ms. Lori and I are indeed accredited investors.. Its kind of like in Golf where you have some golfers fudge their scores to have lower handicaps than they really do.

 correct - and many think that its up to the LP and their problem, but its like selling alcohol, just because someone says they are 21 does not mean they are. I have had many people include personal residence to say they are a Accredited Investor... Whats worse is I know some GP's do not even know what the definition is.


 precisely, there should be like 10-20 self-certification question, for example givethem question like this:

a) if gp is buying with 5% cap rate and interest rate is 3% with rate of change of appreciation per year is 0.25% cap rate compression, what would be the IRR for investment ? as simple as that..

folk in BP is even asking how much their IRR when cap rate is 2% and they give 20%.

they don't know that buying simple rental even in cupertino market is still way less riskier than buying syndicatioon at 4% cap.

Quote from @Brian Burke:
Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Instead he put said money (other peoples money at that) into higher risk assets/markets which would then be more prone to a price correction. And in doing so, completely wipe out their equity position and lead to foreclosure. 

I don't think it's that, Russell. The asset that is the subject of this thread is in Houston, and not the worst area of Houston, either. It's a 70s vintage deal, 400+ units, with a lot of nearby competition, so certainly there is some risk elevation from the asset/market, but that's the least of the problem here, in my opinion.

If the numbers on CoStar are correct, the property was purchased at the very top of the market for $47M, with a $39.4M bridge loan (that would likely mature this year).  And according to an article published by the Texas Real Estate Research Center, there was a $5.25M preferred equity tranche as well.  Add the pref to the debt and you have 95% combined senior capital in front of the investor's common equity. 

This allows the sponsor to buy a nearly $50M property with just a few million of investor equity--but it provides zero resiliency to an adverse market.  A 5% movement down wipes out 100% of the equity, and multifamily values are down 5% or more almost everywhere since late 2021.

I'm less inclined to say that they invested in a higher risk asset/market, and more inclined to say that they invested at an inopportune time with a high-risk capital structure.  This structure, if the data I'm finding is true, is unsurvivable if the market moves against them.

 None of these lo guys able to comprehend that back then

I am about to say even if the Fed raised the rate in 2015 , Lp equity would be wiped out as well.

It is just Lp investors are too dumb to understand basic math and relationship between equity LTV and volatility changes in rate.

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Chris Seveney:

@Becca F.

Honestly this is why the govt needs to change the criteria for an accredited investor

It has not changed the amounts in like 40 years and many people making $250k a year cannot afford to lose $50 or $100k which is happening now as many use the “accredited investor” as a status but the only status is you can lose $ and govt doesn’t care.

Besides that the jobs act introduced crowdfunding and regulation a+ that allows people to invest hundreds or thousands of dollars at a time not $50k and accepts non accredited.


the other thing is I flat guarantee that many of these syndication just take the investor word for being accredited. And many lPs fibbed about it and are not accredited.. I know in the two syndication's I have invested in they required a letter from my CPA that confirmed that Ms. Lori and I are indeed accredited investors.. Its kind of like in Golf where you have some golfers fudge their scores to have lower handicaps than they really do.

 This is why I curious how is the LP investment prior to 2012 ?

Post: Bay Area House Hackers, what's your story

Carlos Ptriawan#2 Market Trends & Data ContributorPosted
  • Posts 7,162
  • Votes 4,417
Quote from @Daniel Solano Wolfe:
Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
Quote from @Daniel Solano Wolfe:

Hi everyone, I'm new to the BP community and currently live in the bay area. Because I'm new to the community and specifically to house hacking, I have so many questions and would love to hear about how you all got started. You don't have to be from the bay area specifically but if you are then amazing. Would just be easier to compare myself to where you were when you started. Please reach out, any and everything would help a lot.


 What is your question ? Househacking is very common in Bay Area


 With the bay area being a very expensive place, how much should I initially save or does that not matter. Is there specific cities or areas I should look into first to start my journey? 

Sannleandro Hayward East San Jose San Lorenzo

Post: Bay Area House Hackers, what's your story

Carlos Ptriawan#2 Market Trends & Data ContributorPosted
  • Posts 7,162
  • Votes 4,417
Quote from @Daniel Solano Wolfe:
Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
Quote from @Daniel Solano Wolfe:

Hi everyone, I'm new to the BP community and currently live in the bay area. Because I'm new to the community and specifically to house hacking, I have so many questions and would love to hear about how you all got started. You don't have to be from the bay area specifically but if you are then amazing. Would just be easier to compare myself to where you were when you started. Please reach out, any and everything would help a lot.


 What is your question ? Househacking is very common in Bay Area


 With the bay area being a very expensive place, how much should I initially save or does that not matter. Is there specific cities or areas I should look into first to start my journey? 

Sannleandro Hayward East San Jose San Lorenzo

Post: Bay Area House Hackers, what's your story

Carlos Ptriawan#2 Market Trends & Data ContributorPosted
  • Posts 7,162
  • Votes 4,417
Quote from @Daniel Solano Wolfe:

Hi everyone, I'm new to the BP community and currently live in the bay area. Because I'm new to the community and specifically to house hacking, I have so many questions and would love to hear about how you all got started. You don't have to be from the bay area specifically but if you are then amazing. Would just be easier to compare myself to where you were when you started. Please reach out, any and everything would help a lot.


 What is your question ? Househacking is very common in Bay Area

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Funny enough his BP profile says this in his bio....

"My parents got screwed with the 401K and stock market and it's my mission to get everyone out of that "garbage!" I used to own three rentals in Seattle but after 2012 when the prices got too high I realized that sophisticated buy-and-hold investors invest where the numbers make sense with cash flow, not appreciation (gambling). I bought 100k homes for blue-collar working families that rented for 1000 dollars a month that more than paid for all repairs, vacancy, insurance, professional property management, and capital expenses."

What he wrote here indicates he actually doesnt have any background in financial analysis, and doesnt understand that the cash flow, or cap rates are a reflection of the risk. Seattle which he shied away from has lower cash flow/cap rates specifically because it is lower risk. Being lower risk means that it is more resilient to price drops, or deltas from expected appreciation rate. Instead he put said money (other peoples money at that) into higher risk assets/markets which would then be more prone to a price correction. And in doing so, completely wipe out their equity position and lead to foreclosure. 

There is a reason you need to be accredited to invest in these syndications. These companies do not have the type of oversight or reporting requirements that public companies have. They are by that very nature going to have higher risk based just on that fact alone.  There are good syndicators out there like Brian Burke above. But most of the people I personally know running these syndications...I wouldnt trust them to run a corner store. But even with the best operators, this is investing. There is risk. You can have the best operator who has the the highest degree of ethics, and you can still lose your money. There is always the risk of losing the entirety of the investment. 


There are just so many people that’s very valuable and I respected a lot here such as you and Lane.

But when it comes to investment , I would rather be quiet knowing what would happen in future.  So I expected thread like these since few years ago.


Some of you guys GP that keep buying and selling every 19 months are just simply crazy and create the foundation for market crash.

Quote from @Giles D.:

there it is! good to know that Lane was sick and tired of seeing hard working professionals get stuck, so decides to do the sticking himself.


 If you think about it by following the risk rewards and the money trails … folks should only invest to the lender side.


The liberalization of accredited investor in 506b/c is simply problematic , investor was used to be institution

Quote from @Giles D.:

So when a deal is successful and sold (full cycle) what happens then?

All investors will have to pay back the depreciation recapture (losses taken throughout the hold) and capital gain (the big payout on the end which is sale minus cost basis). But don't despair because although this is the case when you look at it myopically, in reality most investors go into multiple deals accumulating 100s of thousands of passive activity losses in their first few years investing. Those losses do not go away, but they become suspended to be used to offset future passive income and sales/capital events like this in the future. When you exit a deal, what normally ends up happening (like Tom Brady keep winning more Super Bowls) is that you go into two more deals (with now double the amount of capital) and you will likely find that with those new K1s you could result in you having way more passive losses you began with If you can see where this is going... yes, experienced investors with a lot of capital deployed might have 500k-1M+ suspended passive losses and have not paid taxes in years and do not appear to pay taxes for years! (you can find how much suspended passive losses you currently have on your IRS Form 8582 - which your CPA is likely not giving to you and in that case you should get a new one)

PS - I am not an CPA or attorney but I became FI doing this for myself after 10 years working as a w2 engineer :( and I am sick and tired of seeing highly educated and hard working professionals getting stuck.


 Cost segregation benefits the GP but not lo