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All Forum Posts by: Brian Kloft

Brian Kloft has started 4 posts and replied 120 times.

Post: sec 8nswers It's not that complicated folks

Brian KloftPosted
  • Investor
  • Arizona & Oregon Coast
  • Posts 120
  • Votes 100
Quote from @Steve K.:

I used to have S8 properties and for the most part I agree with your sentiment: it doesn't have to be as bad as the stigma around it might lead one to believe. I never had any issues waiting on paperwork or the bureaucracy side of it like I had been warned about. I actually never failed an inspection!

However I sold those properties, as when I looked at the numbers compared to my other properties in better locations, I realized I was making a lot more money on those other properties. Even though they had less pro-forma cashflow in the magic spreadsheet, they were actually more profitable overall. This is because of less vacancy/turnover, rents increased much faster, less tenant damage, less maintenance and repair costs, and most important of all MUCH higher appreciation due to being in more desirable areas that actually improved instead of staying stagnant like many S8 areas. 

Other than making less money overall, some of the other downsides of my S8 experience were the following:

1. It's a sad way to make money IME. A very high percentage of my tenants (in fact, almost all of them) were single mothers. Many of them had drug or alcohol issues. Many of them had abusive boyfriends who took advantage of them. 3 of them died in my units from drug overdoses. 1 drank herself to death. I dealt with a lot of domestic abuse situations involving children... some of my S8 tenants only had to pay $7 for their portion of rent every month, but I still felt bad taking that money from them. 

2. S8 tenants never have good credit, savings, or anything to lose if they trash your property (besides their voucher, not always enough to make them care in my experience). In my other properties with high-earning tenants, I can get a judgment and garnish their wages, threaten their pristine credit that they actually care about, go after their savings, etc. Not so with S8, I'm paying out of pocket even if the place is completely destroyed (happened to me a few times unfortunately, and not by people in the program but usually their friends or relatives). 

3. There is always a lot more people living in the property than the person in the program. First the approved tenant moves in: perfect applicant, single mom with one kid, no pets... soon her adult kids move in with their kids and then her ex moves in with his kids and their kid's kids and their pitbulls and mastiffs...  most of the problems I had were not with people actually in the program. You have less control for this reason, and the property gets way more beat up. You can screen all you want and evict all you want, but it's hard to control when they invite people in so it's unavoidable unless you live next door or something. Having that many people in the property puts a lot more wear and tear on it, even if the people give a crap (but many don't, in fact many are entitled with no respect or appreciation). I had to deal with a lot more issues than I've ever had in non-S8 rentals like extensive property damage and also bed bugs, roaches, drain lines completely clogged up by grease (I learned what sewer worms are, look it up), spray paint art on walls and food on ceilings, noise complaints, police at the property, removing dead bodies, etc.  

4. As mentioned above, S8 properties tend to be in bad locations. I reiterate this because I have made the lion's share of my money in real estate by investing in "up and coming" locations as they transition from borderline to popular parts of town. The problem with S8 buildings is they can hold an area back that would otherwise be in the "Path of Progress". If there are a lot of S8 buildings in an area, it'll never be nice. I've seen gentrification spread right up to a block of S8 buildings, and then go around that block leaving it right where it was and will probably always be (undesirable). 

Appreciation is where the real money is at IME, and S8 is an appreciation killer. Buying in areas with a lot of good jobs and desirability is the key to growing wealth from rapid appreciation. S8 renters simply don't have good jobs, or they wouldn't be on S8. People live there because they have no other options. Property values are usually flat for this reason, compared to better locations where more people actually choose to live. So S8 not longer fits my strategy personally. 


 Sounds like another example of RE being local. Most of my Sec 8 housing that I delt with has been in Phoenix AZ. While there are project housing apartments that are not in good areas, sec 8 tenants were able to rent anywhere and with our rapid expanding and relatively cheap housing; they were renting in regular middle of the road blue collar neighborhoods. I rented a lot of brand new houses to sec 8 tenants. My experience was that my percentage of sec 8 tenants that trashed properties was about the same as those that were not on sec 8. It sounds like most of your sec 8 rented properties were in a much worse neighborhood than your other properties. I would guess that if you had non sec 8 tenants in those same neighborhoods that you would have had the same problems with them. Thus the issue was probably more of a issue with being in a lower level neighborhood than who the renter was. 

I had some experiences where the sec 8 tenant was a single mother but her "boyfriend" lived there 11.5 months of the year. He couldn't be there the two weeks that the inspection would happen or she would no longer be low income, since he had a good job, and she would lose her free money (voucher). That kind of stuff is what really drives me the most nuts about the program, the fraud/abuse of the system. It happens on just about any large free money program. However there are also those tenants that I see are getting to raise their kids in a much safer/nicer neighborhood than if they didn't have it; and I have seen some people be able to move up in their career and their portion of rent get higher and higher, over the years, until they got off sec 8. Of course, now that I have some properties on the coast, it drives me nuts every time I see a person that just got their voucher in a larger city decide that now that they have their voucher it is time to go move to the more expensive coastal town. It's like they got their golden ticket so now it is time to go live and relax in a small vacation town. 

Post: Anyone on here that lives or works in Ashland Oregon?

Brian KloftPosted
  • Investor
  • Arizona & Oregon Coast
  • Posts 120
  • Votes 100

Thank you Chris!
Hi Lawrence, I will send you a PM.

Post: sec 8nswers It's not that complicated folks

Brian KloftPosted
  • Investor
  • Arizona & Oregon Coast
  • Posts 120
  • Votes 100

I think a lot of the problems people have with failed inspections and such come from Landlords that don't like to maintain their properties. If you are a good landlord and fix things when there is a problem, like you would with any other tenant, then you won't have any problems. However I know there are a lot of slumlords out there that will only fix something when they are forced to. They don't like Sec 8 because they are forced to every year and they can't bully the tenant into just accepting it. 

The other group of Landlords that can't seem to handle Section 8 are those that are so tight on cash that they freak out if they go a month without rent between tenants. Since you often don't get the first month's rent until the second month, along with the second month's rent; although sometimes you get it half way thru the first month. Those Landlords that are so tight on money will chose whomever can come and give them cash now so that they can pay their bills tomorrow as they have no reserves to float it for 30 days when Sec 8 catches up with everything.

Of all the tenants that I have had on Sec 8 over the many years the only real problems I have had are with those tenants that game the system. It doesn't really affect me, other than as a tax payer. It just really bugs me when I have one of those tenants that are abusing the system and shouldn't actually be on Sec 8 and thus are taking a spot away from someone that really needs it to help get back on their feet. It is a small percentage, but it bugs me nonetheless. 

Post: Useless property what to do?

Brian KloftPosted
  • Investor
  • Arizona & Oregon Coast
  • Posts 120
  • Votes 100

@Alecia Loveless  Just curious on what you have done?

Post: Anyone on here that lives or works in Ashland Oregon?

Brian KloftPosted
  • Investor
  • Arizona & Oregon Coast
  • Posts 120
  • Votes 100

Anyone on here very familiar with Ashland OR and or live or work there? We might have an opportunity there but are not as familiar with the inland cities of Oregon as we are the coastal towns. Our son will be going to SOU in the fall so we are a little familiar with it, just not as much as we would like and so we have some questions.

Post: Separate basement rental in Aurora

Brian KloftPosted
  • Investor
  • Arizona & Oregon Coast
  • Posts 120
  • Votes 100
Quote from @Trace Adams:

Hi all,

I am currently house hunting for my first home in the Aurora, CO area and am interested in finding something with a finished basement that I could create a separate entrance for (assuming one doesn't already exist) and rent it out to tenants and make a dent in the mortgage payment given this high interest rate environment. However, I called the City of Aurora to ask about zoning codes and considerations for doing this, and they said renting out a basement is not allowed in Aurora. Is there a way around this or are my dreams dead because the govt, who wants to fix the housing crisis, will not let a first time homebuyer do something that is perhaps the #1 solution to making housing cheaper in a market like Denver? Thanks!


 When you talked to the city did you just say rent it out or did you specify long term rental? If you didn't specify, then the person you were talking to might have thought you were just talking about a short term rental / Air B&B.

Post: Paying the buyers closing costs?

Brian KloftPosted
  • Investor
  • Arizona & Oregon Coast
  • Posts 120
  • Votes 100
Quote from @Theresa Harris:
Quote from @Brian Kloft:

It sounds like a lot of people responding have not tried to sell a house in the last 6 months. Two years ago you would have not paid buyer's closing costs. Deciding on taking the offer and paying the closing costs has little to do with your numbers but everything to do with the market. The market doesn't care about your numbers. The market is what the market is.  In this current market it is not uncommon for buyers to ask and need you to pay closing costs. There is a high percentage chance that those closing costs are actually going to buy down their interest rate. Perhaps on higher end homes it is different but it sounds like you are talking average Joe, blue collar, housing. While the market has picked up some in the last month or two it is still slow. I think @Russell Brazil is correct that you are not having a flood of buyers walking thru. If you want to move on to the next deal then take it and move on. If the Buyers are preapproved I would not be worried about them not being able to close. Since their lender has already talked to you talk to them more to find out how solid they are. It seems like good lenders are there to help make the deal happen. Another way to look at it is you agreed to $4k and they need $6k. If the house sits for another one to two months are you going to be out that $2k anyways? If so take that bird in the hand. Also it sounds like you agent is trying to tell you the same thing, without trying to tell you what to do.

For reference I sold one of my houses back in January. Showings were slow as we listed at probably the slowest time of all back in November. Our first real offer they wanted $10k off plus $10k in closing costs. We were not willing to do that. A month later we got an offer where they just wanted the $10k in closing costs and we took it. For reference this was a $375k house and we were trying to get top or near to market value for the house and not selling it at a discount. 


 It depends on your market. Where I am, things are selling quickly-especially at the lower price points.  In Jan, that wasn't the case, but come April they pick up.


True, but I am guessing based on him saying only 5 showing in his first 10 days means that he is not in one of those markets.

Post: Paying the buyers closing costs?

Brian KloftPosted
  • Investor
  • Arizona & Oregon Coast
  • Posts 120
  • Votes 100

It sounds like a lot of people responding have not tried to sell a house in the last 6 months. Two years ago you would have not paid buyer's closing costs. Deciding on taking the offer and paying the closing costs has little to do with your numbers but everything to do with the market. The market doesn't care about your numbers. The market is what the market is.  In this current market it is not uncommon for buyers to ask and need you to pay closing costs. There is a high percentage chance that those closing costs are actually going to buy down their interest rate. Perhaps on higher end homes it is different but it sounds like you are talking average Joe, blue collar, housing. While the market has picked up some in the last month or two it is still slow. I think @Russell Brazil is correct that you are not having a flood of buyers walking thru. If you want to move on to the next deal then take it and move on. If the Buyers are preapproved I would not be worried about them not being able to close. Since their lender has already talked to you talk to them more to find out how solid they are. It seems like good lenders are there to help make the deal happen. Another way to look at it is you agreed to $4k and they need $6k. If the house sits for another one to two months are you going to be out that $2k anyways? If so take that bird in the hand. Also it sounds like you agent is trying to tell you the same thing, without trying to tell you what to do.

For reference I sold one of my houses back in January. Showings were slow as we listed at probably the slowest time of all back in November. Our first real offer they wanted $10k off plus $10k in closing costs. We were not willing to do that. A month later we got an offer where they just wanted the $10k in closing costs and we took it. For reference this was a $375k house and we were trying to get top or near to market value for the house and not selling it at a discount. 

Post: Bi-Weekly Rent Payments.

Brian KloftPosted
  • Investor
  • Arizona & Oregon Coast
  • Posts 120
  • Votes 100

First, hopefully you communicated with your Landlord in the beginning about the short payments and didn't just not pay as usual. That is the first thing to keep in good graces is communication. Second, if you don't think you owe as much as they are saying then simply ask for a ledger. They should be able to provide you with that. It will show everything that they have charged you and everything that you have paid. Have it go back to November, before things started changing. If you pay online you can probably go online and look at it yourself. That should be the simple way to resolve this. If you see something that you disagree with, or that is wrong then tell your Landlord, or ask for an explanation. Again, communication is key.