Talk me out of this course

[Bob Yon]

I'm real close to purchasing this educational package:

http://www.dodeals.com/order/RealEstateREVolutionSystem.php

Who can give me good reasons why I should not? Of course, first hand experiences would be best.

I'm a fairly new investor though I have owned several rental properties over the years, mostly homes that I moved out of and decided to rent for a while before selling. Most recently I purchased a home at auction strictly for investment purposes.

My goal is to earn enough to replace my corporate job income and to build some retirement wealth.

For the last several months I've been listening to lots of podcasts and webinars (guru sales pitches). Phil Grove's system has been the most appealing to me.

I may also be looking for a local mentor. Someone in the Charlotte, NC area. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

[Sam M.]

Tom,
I don't think the lack of investing in education is the common denominator among those who have never taken action. I don't know the stats but many who "invest" in RE education have never done a deal. Someone was telling me about Nouveau Riche and how very few of their "students" actually make money on their own through RE. Most of them go on in the marketing side of the "business" and sell courses. Some do “deals†through NR??????

Sad but true. Most people will not do a deal because they allow their fear to get in the way of taking action.

[Mitch Kronowit]

Originally posted by Bob Yon:

I'm a fairly new investor though I have owned several rental properties over the years, mostly homes that I moved out of and decided to rent for a while before selling. Most recently I purchased a home at auction strictly for investment purposes.

FWIW, it sounds like you have more experience than me and I wouldn't spend my money on some REI course. I'd rather spend it on actual real estate.

[Bryan Hancock]

Phill Grove is based out of Austin and I know him very well. He is the real deal when it comes to investing, but I can't vouch one way or the other about his courses. He heads RENC, the most respected RE club in Austin and arguably the best club in Texas.

I knew he was going national, but I am surprised it has worked well so quickly.

We share a lot in common (former electrical engineers turned RE investors, live in Austin, etc.). I think his programs are likely pretty legit given that he knows his stuff really well. You may ask to speak to some of his current students to see how they like his program. The only beef I have ever had with his model is that there is only one of him and lots of students so he is spread thin for time.

It looks like Tim Mai is promoting his products now. Brian Gibbons on BP knows Tim if you need to speak to someone about his program(s).

[Sam M.]

Originally posted by Mitch Kronowit:

Originally posted by Bob Yon:

I'm a fairly new investor though I have owned several rental properties over the years, mostly homes that I moved out of and decided to rent for a while before selling. Most recently I purchased a home at auction strictly for investment purposes.

FWIW, it sounds like you have more experience than me and I wouldn't spend my money on some REI course. I'd rather spend it on actual real estate.

I would say whether or not you should spend some time and/or money on education would be determined by your track record. As many have posted on this forum past deals that really were not deals at all. Buying at auction doesn't necessarily mean you understand what you are doing.

I would like to hear more about what has made real estate profitable for you. Did you just get lucky at auction like Mark did? http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/41/topics/47830-bought-my-first-foreclosure-yesterday-despite-bp-advice-c-

Or did you do your homework?

There is a wealth of information on this site alone. Hard to go wrong with free!

[Ali Samana]

Bob,

I am also fairly new to REI and I do spend alot of time reading and learning. I would not spend the $1k to do this course yet. I am not sure what part of REI you would like to focus on, but I would research that here on BP first.

I am not saying that Phil Grove is not the real deal, I am saying that you might be able to find the same information here for free. After that you could ask some of the members for their recommendations on books and start reading those.

Generally speaking the sentiment on these sites seems to be against buying expensive courses online. One of the main reasons is because these courses typically come with a sales pitch for the next course (with a higher price tag) and on and on.

Just my .02, let us know what you decide.

[Tom Bukacek]

Bob, you get out of your business what you put into it. Many people have a horrible attitude towards education in real estate. But I've found most people who refuse to invest in education never take action. I haven't taken Phill's course, as I had already invested in real estate education by the time his info came out, but I do know him and several people who have benefited from his classes. He is the real deal, he does perform transactions, and he knows what he's doing.

The big question to ask yourself is 'why haven't I done a transaction yet?' If knowledge and support is a reason, then investing in an education and support base makes perfect sense.

Again, this is your business and you're dealing with thousands of $$$. Invest a couple bucks in a good education package that you feel comfortable with.

[Sam M.]

Tom,
I don't think the lack of investing in education is the common denominator among those who have never taken action. I don't know the stats but many who "invest" in RE education have never done a deal. Someone was telling me about Nouveau Riche and how very few of their "students" actually make money on their own through RE. Most of them go on in the marketing side of the "business" and sell courses. Some do “deals†through NR??????

Sad but true. Most people will not do a deal because they allow their fear to get in the way of taking action.

[Bryan Hancock]

The bottom line is that if you aren't serious it won't happen. You have a ton of competition and it takes HARD WORK to learn this business. You have to know a lot about a little and a little about a lot to get things done. Most of the folks I know that have been successful have had formal or informal mentoring relationships to help them get over the hump. I'm not saying it can't be done without a mentor, but it certainly takes the bricks out of the briefcase.

When I first got started I had several informal mentors get me to push the ball across the goal line on my first several deals. I also read everything in site and worked hard to learn the business. There simply isn't any shortcut to success. You have to work at it.

[Ali Samana]

Originally posted by Tom Bukacek:

Bob, you get out of your business what you put into it. Many people have a horrible attitude towards education in real estate. But I've found most people who refuse to invest in education never take action. I haven't taken Phill's course, as I had already invested in real estate education by the time his info came out, but I do know him and several people who have benefited from his classes. He is the real deal, he does perform transactions, and he knows what he's doing.

The big question to ask yourself is 'why haven't I done a transaction yet?' If knowledge and support is a reason, then investing in an education and support base makes perfect sense.

Again, this is your business and you're dealing with thousands of $$$. Invest a couple bucks in a good education package that you feel comfortable with.

Tom, There are multiple ways to "invest" in your business. Money is the easiest of those, time is overlooked by many. The point is not about 1k here, the point is that the information available for 1k is also available on websites like this one for free. All one would have to do is invest time.

There are many people that become professional students, they invest thousands and thousands of dollars in "education" and never buy a property. One of the gurus came to town and was marketing his stuff for 4k, I left the seminar and went to ebay, bought it for less than 400 from his own son (his son was also at the seminar).

There were several people who signed up for the next course (4k) and of those there were several more that signed up for the next one (15-26k), at least 2 ladies that bought the top course have not done anything in REI over the last year.

[Dale Osborn]

We all agree that a certain amount of education is needed. Whether it is better to be self-educated or pay a guru to try and educate you seems to be where the paths differ. I prefer self-education over gurus as their courses are way overpriced for what they deliver. Should the course be less than $300 then I might consider taking one of these courses. Until then scour the internet, library and bookstores for any and all materials dealing with real estate. I know of many who take the courses and bring the manual back and let it collect dust on their book shelf - they never take action.

[Bryan Hancock]

I think the:

1. Learn yourself

vs.

2. "Learn from guru"

debate is a severely simplistic way of looking at things. Not all "guru" programs are created equally and not all people value their time the same. I am sure a lawyer that bills out at $250/hour wouldn't mind shaving tens of hours off of his learning curve by going to school to learn things from a reputable mentor. The cost/benefit is far different for someone making $15/hour.

I went to school to be an electrical engineer before I got out in the workforce and sold my time. I went to school to get an MBA in finance before I sold my time at that level. I also went to school to learn real estate before I ventured out and did deals. My reasoning was that one deal could cost several times what the price of admission was if I ended up screwing things up!

To each his own...$1k for a brain dump of Phill's material is a bargain IMO. Others feel differently and value their time less and that is okay.

[Sam M.]

I spent 600.00 on a weekend course that went over the basics of the different methods of REI. It might not have been the smartest thing to do but it was what was right in front of me. From there I ran into this site, talked with others about doing deals together, did a lot of market research, made offers, made unsolicited offers to buy the note and listened to friends tell me about how short sales won't work in my area because realtors can only close about 13% of SS’s.

I really don't regret one minute of the struggle. If my friends had not told me the untruths about short sales I would have never dug as deep and learned about notes and security instruments etc. I would also not have had a handle on what my market was doing; I would not have made as many contacts as I have to date. I would not have gone through so many REO’s and seen what these trashy places were going for : ) I would not have called so many owners with FSBO’s and made offers only to be told “noâ€.

My point is there is no short cut. One must take the time and put in the effort. Even if you get the "education" you must spend the time validating the information so you are not just regurgitating what was fed to you. Even the best course MUST be tailored to your specific market. It is easy to tell when someone is saying what they think or spouting off what someone else told them.

As an example of tailoring to the local market: If you want to invest locally in my area you will not be able to use information from a guru talking about the homes that are bought at 25k and rent for 500.00/month. Land is just too expensive out here to make sense out of rentals using that model. The cheapest place on the market is one for 75k, is run into the ground and rents for 450.00/month. They call that “investment property†around these parts. I should take pictures of the place. It is pathetic! This is likely the reason most of the rentals in town are in ruins. There is no money after PITI to keep the place in decent condition.

[Bill Gulley]

Great thread, everyone has great comments! I really liked Sam's post "buying at auction doesn't necessarily mean you know what you are doing" I'll expand, being in real estate and making money doesn't mean you really know what you're doing, LOL! Trying to follow a guru course can mess with your head and your wallet. I've been reading some guru materials, some seem to be very good and I'm surprised, but get a local mentor.....buy courses that cost no more than you can afford to lose on lottery tickets! IMO Good luck, Bill

[Mitch Kronowit]

Originally posted by Ali Samana:

There are many people that become professional students, they invest thousands and thousands of dollars in "education" and never buy a property.

I've started to notice that among some of the people I meet while networking and I can't help but wonder how many "investors" use training, seminars, and boot camps to AVOID taking real action? IOW, it's easier to pay even a few thousand dollars on a course than sign the papers for a real $100,000 property that is ALL yours now. And you have the excuse for not taking action, i.e., "I'm still taking classes. I'm still learning".

Bottom line: If you're completely in the dark regarding real estate and you need a $1,000 kick in the butt to get started, and you actually start, then it's money well spent. However, if you're in over $20,000 on courses and seminars (I've met some) and you still haven't pulled the trigger on a single property, then you're just fooling yourself.

[Bob Yon]

Originally posted by Sam M.:

I would like to hear more about what has made real estate profitable for you. Did you just get lucky at auction like Mark did? http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/41/topics/47830-bought-my-first-foreclosure-yesterday-despite-bp-advice-c-

Or did you do your homework?

The one rental property I now own and purchased at auction is, for some, an interesting story. My neighbor was facing a dilemma because he had a balloon mtg that was coming due in the summer of 2008 and could not get refinanced. I'm sure there are reasons and excuses why he could not get refinanced but I won't dwell there.

So, in order to help a neighbor and friend I told him I would buy the house from the bank and sell it back to him and hold the note or rent it to him or whatever arrangement we could make. I set out to purchase the property and actually did purchase it at auction at about 60% of current value.

In the meantime he had been forced out of the house and moved into a rental. When I told him I had the deed and told him he could move back in, he told me that he liked the house he was renting even better.

So I am now the proud owner of a nice (and profitable) piece of rental property.

Did I get lucky, well some would say so, but I had done my homework too. I had researched what local rental rates were, knew what my PITI payments would be and had had some experience as a landlord previously.

[Bob Yon]

Originally posted by Mitch Kronowit:

Originally posted by Ali Samana:

I've started to notice that among some of the people I meet while networking and I can't help but wonder how many "investors" use training, seminars, and boot camps to AVOID taking real action? IOW, it's easier to pay even a few thousand dollars on a course than sign the papers for a real $100,000 property that is ALL yours now. And you have the excuse for not taking action, i.e., "I'm still taking classes. I'm still learning".

Good point Mitch, but I think I am just the opposite. I recently was bidding on another auction property here in town and bid $30k -$40k on the property knowing I would have to put AT LEAST another $25K into it before I could re market it.

The point is I didn't hesitate to commit to spending $60k+ because I knew it's value. Yet, when it comes to spending $1000 (or even less) or an education program I can barely force myself to pull the trigger.

I guess we are all different.

[Bob Yon]

I really want to thank everyone for their responses. All have been constructive and vaulable. However, as yet no one has provided enough reason for ME not to move forward with the purchase. Though Ali and several other have made good points AGAINST buying the package I think it is Ali's comments that best summarize why I am going to buy it.

Originally posted by Ali Samana:

Tom, There are multiple ways to "invest" in your business. Money is the easiest of those, time is overlooked by many. The point is not about 1k here, the point is that the information available for 1k is also available on websites like this one for free. All one would have to do is invest time.

His point (and others made the same point) is quite valid. Education can be obtained from this site, from REI clubs, from books, etc. And, FOR ME, the time that would take is very valuable. I simply do not have a lot of time available and therefore want to gather the knowledge as quickly as possible so I can get on with building some wealth.

It is my hope and belief that having a packaged study course will give me the knowledge quicker than I could obtain the knowledge through other means. (And, the package includes what looks to be some pretty cool software.)

Again thanks to everyone for their replies. I certainly would not say my decision is the right one for everyone, but all of you have contributef to what I hope is the right one FOR ME.

Thank you all
Bob

[Bryan Hancock]

I think you made a wise and informed decision Bob. If you are going to invest money in somebody's program Phill's is at the top of the pile along with a few others.

Phill showed me his spreadsheet program for evaluating deals a while back and it seemed like a good starting point for analyzing a deal. A local mentor will help out a lot for analyzing deals where the rubber meets the road.

Good luck to you! Please post on your first deal so that we can see what you are working on.

[Bob Yon]

Thanks Bryan. You can let Phill know that your comments helped me decide to select his course over a couple of others.

I have not received the actual course yet but from the materials I've been able to see and hear online I think I am going to be quite pleased.
The Deal Analyzer software looks really good. It appears to be very thorough. I can't wait to dig into it further.
Thanks again,
Bob

[Bill Gulley]

Bob, come back and let us know what you think about the material and if it works for you....good luck, Bill

[Bryan Hancock]

We are actually wholesaling a property to Phill this week that we put under contract in Pflugerville this past weekend.

I am curious to know what you think of the material too. Did he have a marketing book in the list of what you got?

Phill's program competes with ours locally to a certain extent even though we really focus on different things. From what I have seen he is mostly an expert on short sales, but he certainly knows his stuff on most other Austin-centric strategies. He also lives south, which may as well be a different country from the North Austin/Round Rock area that we focus on mainly.

I think NC may have some unique laws about subject-to purchases so you may want to look into that before you do them there. I haven't ever purchased anything in NC, but I have read they have some unique laws...as does Texas. Phill may cover that in his material, but I doubt it since he has recently ventured out nationally instead of focusing on Austin.

I know several of his students have CFAs, CPA, engineering degrees, etc. I haven't ever heard of anyone being disappointed with his program so I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Please post your thoughts and comments when you get the material.

[Tyler McCracken]

Bob,

I don't personally know anything about the coarse nor the teacher/author.

I am a local investor in Charlotte, NC. I would be more than happy to talk real estate and my thoughts with our markets. Have you tried joining our local real estate investment group -Metrolinareia? (www.metrolinareia.com) I am presently Co-Chair of their Charlotte Landlord Subgroup. There is alot of free and small fee (such as $119/annual membership to our reia) advice to be had. Shoot me an email if you'd like to discuss.

Sincerely,

Tyler McCracken

[Tom Bukacek]

Ali- i appreciate what you are saying about the information being available on websites for free. I've talked with other investors who have said that they can get all the education they need from the library. However, the library and internet have been around for awhile now and people haven't done it yet. You get what you pay for in education; and no $ investment will generally leads to no action being taken.

Regarding Nouveau Riche (NR), I live in Austin where there are about 40 people who've gone through NR and are doing deals successfully and swear by it. There are probably another 200 people who tried selling NR and hate it because they didn't do a deal or sell any educations. Use your own judgement. NR doesn't make anyone successful or fail, it's what the person does with the information that matters.

Take responsibility for educating yourself and be accountable for the results.

Good luck with Phill's course Bob. Let me know the results.

[Ali Samana]

Tom, thanks for the feedback. I do disagree with you because I have seen instances of the opposites. I have never bought a real estate course for a 1k. I have read many books and buy alot of audio CDs. I have never paid for a "mentor" and I am doing deals. I have also met/talked with people who have spent over 25k+ in "education" and never do a deal.

At the end of the day, I would say that if a person is not motivated enough to seek out the information he will not be motivated enough to go through with a deal. Education takes time, and so does Real estate.

Just my .02

[Bob Yon]

Several asked that I post my experience with the course I purchased. This is lengthy, but hopefully it will help some other folks decide.

I purchased the package and even decided to attend his 2 day boot camp and buy his gold level mentoring program. The gold program included an extra 1/2 day at the camp and an extra seat, which is partly why I bought into that. My daughter attended the camp with me and I am hoping that she will be able to help with a lot of the marketing tasks. The gold program also includes a year or what he calls coaching calls that are done biweekly. And he will personally assist me in closing my first deal. All of that for what I consider to be a fairly reasonable cost.

Overall I am pretty impressed with the materials and the information. He does not teach just one acquisition method (SS, LO, Buy/hold, sub-to, etc.) Which is one of the main reasons I decided to buy from him in the first place.

His approach is that he teaches 30 different marketing strategies to reach motivated sellers. Then based on the details of the seller's financial situation you choose from one or more of 12 different acquisition strategies.

He ranks both the marketing and the acquisition strategies based on their effectiveness and I believe is pretty honest about which will work and which ones really don't work very often. He also lets you know pretty clearly which of the marketing strategies take time, money or both.

The package I got also included his Deal Analyzer software which to this newbie is pretty slick. You fill out a pretty thorough questionnaire regarding the property you are considering buying and it gives red, yellow, green guidance on which of the acquisition strategies are appropriate for the situation. And it recommends the max you should pay using each strategy. It also has a pro forma section that is quite helpful.

My one concern is that the course, of course, does not cover the specifics of the market in which I live and invest. I'm sure this rural market I live in is different than the Austin market of which he is such an expert. He does address some of my concerns in the course by cautioning to check such things as months of inventory which will alert you to a slow buyer's market and the potential of sitting on a property a long time. My concern may just be my hesitation on pulling the trigger on a less than sure thing deal.

However, I have two deals already in the works. First, I am partnering with someone from our local REI club to purchase a home for about 25K including repairs and expect to get $650-$700 in rent.

Second, I have a 2nd house under contract. (Well verbal contract until I can get my atty to write things up. I decided to get an atty to write up my first one since the contracts provided with the course are for Texas.) It is an older home (1940) that I am buying sub-to the existing $85K mtg. I have roughly estimated the repairs (with the help of the Deal Analyzer software) to be about$12K. I am going to be checking it out with my contractor this weekend. (I have a 90 day option.)

This is the sticky part and another place I think the course falls a little short. Estimating the ARV is TOUGH! The course basically says to have a good Realtor do the comps for you, but I'm very nervous about that as I don't have experience with a Realtor in the area yet.

So, I think the ARV should be in the $120k - $125k range.

I have not decided yet whether I will try to wholesale the deal to another investor, sell it with owner financing and wrap the mtg, or just do a mtg assignment and collect the assignment fee. All of which are techniques taught in the course.

Hopefully any one of which will more than cover the cost of what I spent on the package. :-)

[Bryan Hancock]

I told ya so Bob ;-)

Seriously....I am glad you received value from the course. Phill is one of the best resi investors I know and he certainly knows his stuff.

When anyone asks about courses on the net I always tell them to seek out local resources if possible. Now that you have a solid baseline to work from try to find some partners that understand your local laws and customs. Phill or any other mentor isn't going to be able to coach you through all situations in all states. This is an extremely tall order for anyone and I would go out on a limb and say anyone that claims he/she can do so is either mistaken or too arrogant to admit that they can't know everything.

For the Realtor contact ask around at your local REIA. Some of the investor-friendly Realtors will let you become an unlicensed assistant so that you can run you own comps and do your own due diligence. Try to find a competent contractor to assess repairs the same way.

Good luck on your deals! Is Phill coaching you on the numbers for them? If so, what is he claiming?