Calling Out Mark Podolsky from the Land Geek

[JJ W.]

I created this topic because I'd like to hear from the guru himself - @Mark Podolsky aka "The Land Geek". He boasts on his podcast that he has the best passive income model, and even forces his "guests" to declare that he has the best income model, but I couldn't disagree more - this definitely isn't the BEST passive income model or even the best real estate model. I'm holding your feet to the fire just like you do your guests, Mr. Podolsky, and I welcome you to refute the points outlined below:

1. You made this niche sound cheaper than it is. In order to effectively have enough leads for this, you have to spend money on direct mail campaigns, which aren't cheap. Neither is getting the lists from counties, or the capital needed to outsource and systematize this business, etc. ( this isn't even including the exorbitant fee for your course). That adds up to thousands of dollars with no guaranteed return. The "1,000 % return" you claim clearly hasn't calculated all of these costs. 

2. There's no amortization - it's difficult to obtain loans and private money for land, so you have to have substantial up front capital to make enough profit to live off, let alone get "rich". There isn't enough hedge against risk to make most lenders to provide leverage. If it's too risky for a bank to take on, is it not risky for the novice investor?) The fact that you have to use your own money not only limits the amount of transactions you can do - it also makes this niche MUCH more risky, and increases the chances of failure. Not to mention, this is one of the primary ways that people build wealth - using amortization to buy properties that they could't otherwise afford, in order to quickly build their net worth. Tell me who's wealthier: The guy who spent $30,000 on land, or the guy who syndicates an 8 million dollar apartment deal with NONE of his own money and 45% of the equity and cash flow? Yeah… That’s what I thought.

3. It isn't really THAT passive, unless you make hundreds of thousands to millions (like most gurus), to provide you the seed capital to outsource all of this. You constantly have to obtain leads, manage the notes, negotiate with the sellers, etc. It's not really an investment technique - it's a business.

4. There IS competition - you've made it sound like there's little, which simply isn't true. Even if there aren't people doing exactly what you do, there are land realtors - professionals who will list the property for more than you're offering the seller.

5. There's inherent risk involved: People need a roof over their head. No one NEEDS raw, undeveloped land. Real estate is cyclical, and land is one of the first asset classes to feel the sting of a recession. It's inherently more risky than many other asset types - especially during a recession.

6. You have to do a high volume to make a significant profit. This means more capital, time, and energy is needed to make substantial profits from this niche.

7. There are few, if any, tax benefits. There are four primary ways to make money in real estate:

a. Appreciation (which is risky and speculative in nature, and you're not enjoying the benefits of that because you don't even own the land if you follow your strategy)

b. Cash Flow (which is quite limited in this niche - I listened to one of your youtube vids and the examples you gave were not only pretty unrealistic, but also pretty low profit)

c. Tax Benefits ( there's no depreciation for land, only for real estate assets on a piece of land)

d. Amortization ( as mentioned above, this isn't one of the benefits that land flippers like yourself can enjoy, either)

8. This, by far, is what bothers me the most about this niche. At the end of the day... YOU DON'T EVEN OWN THE ASSET!!! Like seriously, how could you even consider this the best income model? You're basing your future on internet randoms to do the right thing and pay you a few hundred a month for an asset they don't even need (which is a horrible business model by the way - there is a reason that the financial sector hinges on creditworthiness standards. Can you imagine if Wall Street followed your model and just took people at their word that they would pay you? We'd enter the Apocalypse! lol). There are many other forms of real estate that provide cash flow, little maintenance, appreciation, tax benefits, AND allow you to actually own the tangible asset. The cash flow you would make from one piece of land lasts how long, 5-15 years? You can hold onto an apartment and generate cash flow from it FOREVER. There are other property types that you wouldn’t even have to deal with tenants and toilets the same way you would in residential – industrial buildings, for example, are pretty low maintenance.

Anyway, please feel free to respond. I feel like you’re kind of being deceptive to impressionable people out there, and since obviously you weren’t going to bring any of this up on your podcast, I felt compelled to. 

[Michael Quarles]

Personally I think that the best passive income model is a systemized massive investment business Which doesn't require share holder participation. 

And for the record I was on his show and didn't feel like I needed to promote his model.  

[JJ W.]

Originally posted by @Michael Quarles:

Personally I think that the best passive income model is a systemized massive investment business Which doesn't require share holder participation. 

And for the record I was on his show and didn't feel like I needed to promote his model.  

 Aren't you the guy that promotes other gurus on here? I heard you on Sean Terry's podcast not too long ago... Lol. Not accusing you of being biased, just asking is all :)

[Michael Quarles]

Personally I find a lot of guru promotion offensive however there are a few guys worth their weight.  

Just chatted with Norris and was impressed. Toback has a great program.  Justin isn't bad either.  

Btw. I've even been on two BP podcasts.  I think helping is a cool thing.  

[Brian Gibbons]

@Michael Quarles

And I love www.YellowLetters.com

@JJ W.

Welcome to BP

And Go Sox Nation!

[JJ W.]

Originally posted by @Brian Gibbons:

@Michael Quarles

And I love www.YellowLetters.com

@JJ W.

Welcome to BP

And Go Sox Nation!

 Thanks. How can I tag Mark to make sure he sees this thread? Does Jack Bosch have an account here? I'd like to tag him as well, since he makes the same grandiose claims.

[Derek B.]

@JJ W.  whats your motive here exactly?  Sounds to me like you need to move on with your life.  Your long rant is clearly not gaining the traction you wanted because everyone else understands how paid programming works. If you don't like the concept, then don't buy it. You actually started a thread 2 months ago asking for opinions on this course and received some good feedback. Sure Mark thinks that his approach is the best - as do lots of other people. Its his opinion and it works for him. 

People on bp see through this.  You have started 4 discussions - one asking for people's most creative technique (congrats on receiving 1 response) one with some link to a scammer being outed and 2 about Mark.

If you want to be taken seriously around here, upload a profile pic and actually contribute to the community.  

[JJ W.]

Originally posted by @Derek B.:

@JJ W.  whats your motive here exactly?  Sounds to me like you need to move on with your life.  Your long rant is clearly not gaining the traction you wanted because everyone else understands how paid programming works. If you don't like the concept, then don't buy it. You actually started a thread 2 months ago asking for opinions on this course and received some good feedback. Sure Mark thinks that his approach is the best - as do lots of other people. Its his opinion and it works for him. 

People on bp see through this.  You have started 4 discussions - one asking for people's most creative technique (congrats on receiving 1 response) one with some link to a scammer being outed and 2 about Mark.

If you want to be taken seriously around here, upload a profile pic and actually contribute to the community.  

 First of all - don't tell me what to do. You don't own this forum, you're not a moderator, and you have nothing to do with this discussion. I'm reporting your post because not only is it inflammatory, but it has NOTHING to do with the topic. You're violating the forum rules. YOU are the one who came in trolling my thread - what's YOUR motive? Are you trying to receive up votes from the gurus on this forum? Do you work for Mark? Is that why you have a problem with the legitimate questions I asked? It's one thing to have an opinion about the course you're pushing - it's another to mislead people for your own financial gain. The questions I asked were legitimate - don't get angry just because you're an affiliate and my questions are valid, and go derail someone else's thread - not mine. You're not welcome here and I'm blocking you. 

[JJ W.]

Why aren't mods removing his post?

[JJ W.]

It clearly violates forum rules. 

[JJ W.]

Originally posted by @Derek B.:

@JJ W.  whats your motive here exactly?  Sounds to me like you need to move on with your life.  Your long rant is clearly not gaining the traction you wanted because everyone else understands how paid programming works. If you don't like the concept, then don't buy it. You actually started a thread 2 months ago asking for opinions on this course and received some good feedback. Sure Mark thinks that his approach is the best - as do lots of other people. Its his opinion and it works for him. 

People on bp see through this.  You have started 4 discussions - one asking for people's most creative technique (congrats on receiving 1 response) one with some link to a scammer being outed and 2 about Mark.

If you want to be taken seriously around here, upload a profile pic and actually contribute to the community.  

 Oh and btw, the reason hardly anyone is replying is because there is NO answer to this! Gurus usually either get silent, or they erupt in childish fits of anger like you did :) Everyone here can see for themselves what I've laid out - and no one has stepped up to the challenge because they can't! Now, let's talk about that  big, juicy commission you get for scamming people out of their money on behalf of these gurus taking advantage of people and outright lying to them, what is it - 6 percent? 10 percent? :)

[JJ W.]

For anyone who doesn't want to take the time to read that, there are several things that make this strategy less than ideal, including the following:

Real estate allows you to make money using leverage, tax benefits, realizing appreciation of a tangible asset, and long term cash flow. Mark Podolsky and Jack Bosch's land strategy only provide 1 out of 4 of those things at best, and he they don't even run credit checks from the buyers they're collecting notes from, which is risky. Not to mention, you don't even get to keep the asset!! At the end of it, once your buyer has paid off the note, you have nothing. At the end of the day, this is speculative land flipping - nothing more, nothing less. This is coming from someone who has purchased and analyzed one of their courses. The best way to make a lot of money in this niche is to become gurus like them. Period.

[Billy Rogers]

Jj W,

First off I want to say that Mark is definitely a salesman and has a product to sell that in my opinion is a little over hyped - ok maybe a lot I don't know.   

He charges money to be a part of his facebook group and it seems like mostly other beginners answering the questions posted.  I didn't see Mark answering any of the questions and quit the group before the free trial period was over.  

• 1.For my first campaign I spent $20 for a list from AgentPro247 and got one deal after sending out 70 letters.I think postage was about $50 and I bought a property assessed for $5k for $425.Sure it cost some money but It was a lot less than it cost me to buy rental property and no where near the level of fear I have when buying rentals because the amounts are smaller.
• 2.Amortization – well this is flipping, you could make the same argument with flipping houses (something that I don’t have the courage to do). You can sell with owner financing and increase your profits that way.
• 3.True, it’s not completely passive, you do have to send out mail and do some research and communicate with buyers and sellers.Probably not as much work as flipping houses though.
• 4.Competition – yes, but much less than in SFR.I get tons of postcards from people trying to buy my rentals.So far no one has told me they have other offers on their land
• 5.Risk- yes, but you can start with small properties until you are more comfortable and experienced.On my first mailing I limited the mail to properties under 13k in value.
• 6.High Volume – you can or you could do fewer high dollar deals its up to you
• 7.No Tax benefits – you are right this is flipping not investing.The same can be said for flipping houses or wholesaling.
• 8.I don't have any idea if this is the best model……Actually for me the best income model would be to have enough money to put it all in a index or REIT fund and just live off the dividends.

There's nothing magical about it.  It involves work, time ( a lot at first) and some risk just like anything.  No it's not nearly as easy as Jack Bosch and Mark make it out to be and it's not for everyone, but it's also not a scam.  It is possible to make money doing this, just like it's possible to make money flipping houses, wholesaling or anything else.  It's just one possible way of making some extra money.

  I have to admit I was pretty pessimistic on my first mailing and in the back of my mind did have a lot of doubts, but I took action anyway.

I am curious, have you sent out any mailings and just tried it a couple of times? 

[Bill Gulley]

Well, I don't know exactly what Mark suggests, but I see selling with seller financing, in that I know the game very well. Understand that the Dodd-Frank Act applies to owner occupied residential properties INCLUDING land and lots where a single family home is allowed to be built! Agricultural land allows homes to be built. A very good argument can be made to build a home on a commercially zoned property, the use is at a lower restriction and may be allowed, but zoned commercially would probably keep the consumer finance folks away.....unless someone builds a home. 

Being "in the business" can make you a lender doing seller financing, something I'd bet Mark lacks expertise in under the new laws, not to mention the varied state laws as applicable.

If you are "flipping" land to a developer, to another investor, you may be fine as a commercial transaction, but if you just sell the Henry Hopeful, that can very well be a consumer loan!

Gurus sell ideas, they aren't generally good ideas nor are their ideas that new or unique and they aren't the ones getting fined or jailed. Too bad too, I could be liable if I told you to jump from a bridge and you jumped. 

I have seen some of Mark's promotions, looks like plain old land speculation, another news flash, you can get stuck with raw land for years, it is not a liquid asset and is less marketable than a residential property. :)

[James Wise]

I don't know who Mark Podolsky is or what his program is about. I just want to let all the new investors in on a little secret.

There is NO program that is going to teach you how to make a bunch of money in real estate without a lot of Time, Effort & Money.

[Latoynia Ransom-Harvey]

@James Wise

I Agree 100%!!

[Jay Hinrichs]

@JJ W.

  the land game has been around for 100 years in the US played the same way these guys are playing.. No mystery. 

there are millions upon millions of platted lots throughout the US that have no or next to zero true value.. so they can be bought like the guy above paid 425. for a property.. I can go into many counties in CA and buy all the lots I want for 1k and under.. they are not developable or buildable but they are legal lots of record.. in the day if your old enough you and got hunting and fishing mag.. in the back there was always adds for 5 to 40 acre ranches in Texas,, Montana.. CA NV AZ FLA  etc etc.. this is an OLD OLD model.. and the paper that is generated from the model has a very HIGH default rate over time.   But just like many that want to get into rentals and have limited capital will risk buying a 1k to 5k house in Detroit.. many want to just own a piece of land .. and will be happy to put 200 down and 50 a month and dream of building on their boonie property one day..

I grew up in this industry saw it in its prime in the 60's.. land sales men in those days made BIG bucks..

Again nothing wrong with the concept.. but like all things a lot more to it than meets the eye....

[Jay Hinrichs]

@JJ W.

 Also ground zero for this is Riverside and San Bernidino counties in CA. there are over 2 million undeveloped platted lots. thousands are bought and sold at tax sale yearly.

there was a company I think they are still around .. In San Carlos CA.. and they bought these buy the hundreds and then marketed to Chinese in China.. the owners were Chinese as well.. big show .. big office pictures with Reagon,,, rolls Royce in front of the office

These are legal lots of record with little to no real value .. but they couch it as this is going to be the next LA.... LOL  la la land is what most of this is.

[Account Closed]

We offer our services free

[Roy Oliphant]

@James Wise 

The emperor has no clothes? Surely you jest. The only way to start a REI career is to spend, spend, spend on training program after training program and hope that eventually you buy enough of them that the shear weight of the manuals sitting on your book shelf will tilt the world in such a way that money will just roll into your pocket!

Or you can get out and work at actually doing some investing; evaluate some properties and neighborhoods, do some due diligence research, make an offer (Really!  Just but something!), market your new property and make some money (or lose some because if it was a sure thing there would be no money to be made).

The roadmap is:

Goals -> Strategy -> Plan -> Action -> Goals 

You can dream the Goals but to get there takes Action.

[Billy Rogers]

@Jay Hinrichs gave me a new nickname.

Cool,  I am now officially "The Guy" !

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Billy Rogers

   "The Big Guy"

[Jack Butala]

@Michael Quarles  @Brian Gibbons @Billy Rogers @Derek 

HERE IS THE WHOLE KEY TO SUCCESS WHEN INVESTING IN UNWANTED RURAL LAND:

Most seasoned investors will agree that buying property cheap is simple when correctly using direct mail.

1) Send out as many mailers as possible. Make cheaper offers. We used to buy property for $100 per acre ($4,000 for a 40 acre property). Now we offer $1,000 for the same property. We buy the same number of parcels because we have increased our direct mail reach statistics. After crying about it, we adjusted to the market (I cried all through 2009).

2) Sell the property for two times (2x) what you paid. No exceptions.

(The 40 acre property in the example above sells for $2K).

Go on the internet to sites like Landwatch and find the retail sellers for your property type and location. Build an email list of about 20 to 80 buyers. Any more will upset these professional retail sellers because they will feel like you are "shopping" the dirt.

Make the purchase really easy for them by creating a set of maps and pictures they can use to re-sell it for retail dollars.

Like this (These properties have long been sold years ago.  I'm not promoting myself or the land in anyway.)

Maybe go so far as to put together a video.  Real estate professionals don't take this simple step to do a video.  You can do it in your underwear in less than five minutes behind the screen (screen capture) and it sets you apart from everyone.

Once you have sold them a property or two at these rates, you have a customer for life.

THIS REPEAT CUSTOMER HAS TO WIN BIGGER THAN YOU DO ON THE SALE OF THIS PROPERTY FOR THIS MODEL TO WORK. 

He will sell that same 40 acre property for $8K to $10K - which is still really cheap.

Keep a bottle of Maalox on your desk like I do. When you sign the deed for a 40 acre property that you sold for $2,000.00 you will need it.

I keep it right next to the sign I made that says this "100% ROI in 30 days or less x 10...

When you have built up a good cash stock pile, start selling good properties with financing.

It can work very very well.

@James Wise

@Latoynia Ransom-Harvey

@JJ W.

[Brad Chandler]

JJ - you mispelled the state you live in.

[Scott Nolan]

But there are programs that will teach you to make a bunch of money in real estate WITH  a lot of time, effort and money, no? Or else what are we all doing here?

So rather than just run down one program or another, why don't folks point out those that do, in their opinion, seem to offer the right combination of training, inspiration and experience?  For my part, I think that Sean Terry, Justin Williams and Todd Toback have it right. AND you can get their advice for free by listening to their podcasts.

[Mark Podolsky]

Just googled myself and found this... 

To answer your questions @JJ W.-- 

1. You made this niche sound cheaper than it is. In order to effectively have enough leads for this, you have to spend money on direct mail campaigns, which aren't cheap. Neither is getting the lists from counties, or the capital needed to outsource and systematize this business, etc. ( this isn't even including the exorbitant fee for your course). That adds up to thousands of dollars with no guaranteed return. The "1,000 % return" you claim clearly hasn't calculated all of these costs. 

Answer :  We get lists for free either directly from the County or a local title company.  Yes, there is an expense to mailing, but the ROI on a mailing is massive.   As far as exorbitant fees for the course and a guaranteed return I guess you shouldn't get the course, but we do have a 30 day money back guarantee and a 180 day success guarantee.  I can't link outside of BP, but if you google "The Land Geek" you can to my site and click on student success and see example after example of success.   Perhaps its just not for you... Which is all right and there is a TON of free information out there so you don't really need a course.  It just saves time... If you have more time than money start testing to see if this is right for you... 

2. There's no amortization - it's difficult to obtain loans and private money for land, so you have to have substantial up front capital to make enough profit to live off, let alone get "rich". There isn't enough hedge against risk to make most lenders to provide leverage. If it's too risky for a bank to take on, is it not risky for the novice investor?) The fact that you have to use your own money not only limits the amount of transactions you can do - it also makes this niche MUCH more risky, and increases the chances of failure. Not to mention, this is one of the primary ways that people build wealth - using amortization to buy properties that they could't otherwise afford, in order to quickly build their net worth. Tell me who's wealthier: The guy who spent $30,000 on land, or the guy who syndicates an 8 million dollar apartment deal with NONE of his own money and 45% of the equity and cash flow? Yeah… That’s what I thought. 

Answer:  Since competition is so low unlike housing, its very easy to lock up deals with no money or just a $50 option.  We have many clients sell properties no money out of pocket just by delaying the closing, finding the buyer, the buyer paying for the property and having a dual closing no money out of pocket and an infinite ROI.     You are correct traditional banks don't like to loan on land, but private investors would be happy to partner or loan at a nice return given our margins are so large.   You can listen to the Best Passive income model and current and past students that have executed on this strategy and discuss how they did it in detail.  In your example, the guy whom syndicates the $8MM apartment deal is wealthier... 

3. It isn't really THAT passive, unless you make hundreds of thousands to millions (like most gurus), to provide you the seed capital to outsource all of this. You constantly have to obtain leads, manage the notes, negotiate with the sellers, etc. It's not really an investment technique - it's a business.

Answer:  I agree... Nothing is really that passive.  Even if you inherit a billion dollars you still have to expend some effort to manage the money, pay the income taxes create estate planning strategies, etc.  So I agree.  You have to do something at some point, but I do like the passive results once I sell a property and get the monthly cash flow like a rental unit, but without renters, rehabs, renovations or rodents.   

4. There IS competition - you've made it sound like there's little, which simply isn't true. Even if there aren't people doing exactly what you do, there are land realtors - professionals who will list the property for more than you're offering the seller.

Answer:  I agree.  There are other people buying and selling raw land and doing phenomenally well.  I think if I was the only one doing it we wouldn't have much of a model...  Nevertheless, with over 3007 counties and billions of acres of land to acquire, since working in this business full time since 2001 I've never lost a deal due to competition nor has my business not grown due to competition.  I say it on the podcast all the time, but since there are no private equity groups, hedge funds etc. in this space we will all run out of money before we run out of deal flow.  

5. There's inherent risk involved: People need a roof over their head. No one NEEDS raw, undeveloped land. Real estate is cyclical, and land is one of the first asset classes to feel the sting of a recession. It's inherently more risky than many other asset types - especially during a recession.

Answer:  You are correct.  Nobody needs raw undeveloped land.  However, if you look around your own home, including your home, you don't need 99.9% of the things you own.  We could all survive on a beach in eating beans and rice.  However, people do want to invest in raw land so I would consider it a market. 

6. You have to do a high volume to make a significant profit. This means more capital, time, and energy is needed to make substantial profits from this niche.

Answer:  Define high volume...  Jeff Akstin is a full time fire fighter and just flipped a $15k 40 acre parcel for $150k.  That moved the needle in his financial life.  I'm not sure how to answer this question as it would be different for everyone. 

7. There are few, if any, tax benefits. There are four primary ways to make money in real estate:

Answer: You are correct.  You can't depreciate raw land.  However, you can take advantage of our huge margins in a self directed IRA, Roth IRA or Qualified Retirement Plan and grow and compound your returns in those tax free or tax deferred accounts. 

8. This, by far, is what bothers me the most about this niche. At the end of the day... YOU DON'T EVEN OWN THE ASSET!!! Like seriously, how could you even consider this the best income model? You're basing your future on internet randoms to do the right thing and pay you a few hundred a month for an asset they don't even need (which is a horrible business model by the way - there is a reason that the financial sector hinges on creditworthiness standards. Can you imagine if Wall Street followed your model and just took people at their word that they would pay you? We'd enter the Apocalypse! lol). There are many other forms of real estate that provide cash flow, little maintenance, appreciation, tax benefits, AND allow you to actually own the tangible asset. The cash flow you would make from one piece of land lasts how long, 5-15 years? You can hold onto an apartment and generate cash flow from it FOREVER. There are other property types that you wouldn’t even have to deal with tenants and toilets the same way you would in residential – industrial buildings, for example, are pretty low maintenance.

Answer:  We do own the asset.  We sell on a land contract and once the contract pays off then we deed the property to the new owner and make about 1000% return on the investment.  If they default, we have no costs of foreclosure we simply resell the property and keep all monies paid in.   I'd prefer to own an asset that I don't have to maintain, protect and not deal with renters rehabs renovations and rodents.   Just because the cash flow expires doesn't mean you can't keep adding to your cash flow. That means you would never sell a home or any other asset?  

My general impression is this model is not right for you and that is all right.  Its not for everybody.   I love it and it fits well with my lifestyle and I like the fact I can run my business any where in the world, automate it, scale it and keep growing my passive income in real estate without the typical headaches of rentals, etc.  For those reading this thread learn more and make your own educated opinion.   Thanks for your thoughts @JJ W and sorry for the late reply, but as a professional land investor I focus on my deals and just don't spend enough time searching for what people are writing about me.   Best of luck in your future investing endeavors!