Lifestyles Unlimited, Inc vs. Biggerpockets - Which is the best bang for your buck

[Donald Hendricks]

I got this screenshot from an email that I got today.

For those of you that don't know, Lifestyles Unlimited is an investor "mentoring" group out of Texas that boast of worldwide membership.  The also have a daily hour long "radio show", which is actually a paid advertisement, on numerous radio stations and can be heard in podcast format as well.  They have three levels of membership that they constantly are trying to upgrade you to in a series of sales pitches.   The lowest level, the Financial Freedom Membership is $500 for the first 2 years (can't buy 1 year) and $250 each year after.  The other 2 membership levels are below.  The Challenge is for single family investors and the Preferred is for multi-family.  They prohibit challenge members from participating in any multi-family group deals, even if only as a passive investor.

If you don't know what BiggerPockets is, uhhh... Well, you are here,, take a look around and join in, it is FREE!!!  If you care to upgrade to take advantage of some of the extras, the PLUS membership is $90.00 a year and the PRO membership is $290.00 a year.

Lets compare:

$8000.00  vs. $90.00 a year = 88.888888 years of BiggerPockets PLUS membership

$18000.00 vs. $290.00 a year = 62.086 years of BiggerPockets PRO membership

Lifestyles Unlimited is open 8-5 mon-fri with limited staff to assist you to answer your questions.

BiggerPockets is open 24/7/365 with over 200,000 members available to answer your questions.

You decide.

[Robert Blanchard]

Thanks for this informative post.  I have read of many people spending up to $20K on training and yet have not done their first deal.  Luckily, I have only spent around $200 in dues and training.  The RE Market has started to recover in my area and I should be able to find some kind of deal to do.

What type of RE investing are you looking to do?

Rob

[Chris K.]

I never understood how people could spend that much money on information in an age where you can find everything online. 

[Lee Reeves]

Chris K, I think the answer to your statement is that yes, lots of information is available.  But what is the best information?  What works and what does not?  What is clearly right and what is clearly incorrect?  

Having purchased both single family and multifamily properties and as a member of BP and LU, I can say that I get value from both.  But without LU and the business model they teach, I would not have had the real estate successes I have had.  I get new ideas from BP and like it a lot, but it was not the catalyst for action for me.

Robert, I agree to an extent - if you are on the fence about whether you are going to actually do a deal, $200 is better than $500 (which is what LU charges for its basic membership) and certainly better than $18k if you're looking to do multifamily.  IF you are getting the same information, support, etc.

[Nick B.]

@Lee Reeves, what are you getting for $18K (if you are)? I am considering joining LU but have some doubts after reading several threads about them on BP. Some say $500 membership is OK but the rest is not worth it an some say that even $500 is not worth it.

[Lee Reeves]

Hi Nick.  On the first house I purchased, I picked up $400/mo. cash flow and $10,000 equity gain.  Second house was similar.  I would not have had the courage or the knowledge of what to do in order to do that without the training that LU provided me.  I was also able to call and talk to someone (the guy I talked to actually owned 75+ houses) and get immediate feedback on how to handle things - from whether or not a tenant's credit score was a good one or not, to how to charge for damages, to whatever.  I used it all the time.

You'll need the most help on the first house.  Once you're over that hump, everything seems just easier (or at least less scary).  Maybe the negs on BP are from folks who are well underway in their investing careers and don't see the value (though I would submit that they too could learn something about how to make things easier - LU uses a really, really good business model).

That's for the basic membership ($500), which I first joined.

After I bought my two houses, I joined the Preferred Investor Group, which if I recall, was $12k at the time, discounted to $10k.  I have since sold my two houses, invested in a large multifamily deal, purchased two multifamily properties, and am looking for a third now.  With that, if you want to do SF, they help you find the deals.  If you want to do MF, they teach you how - 100+ hours of video which is constantly updated, ability to attend additional in person classes, roadtrips to member's MF properties, acquisition roadtrips, networking, etc.  Is it worth it?  Not if you don't do anything.  Definitely, if you do.  They have been around for 24 years and have actual brick-and-mortar offices, which was a major thing for me.  It's not a traveling roadshow that you sometimes see advertised.

If you're just looking to purchase some houses, check them out and join the basic membership if you are impressed by what they present.  In my experience, they earn their membership fee and more.

[Nick B.]

@Lee Reeves, I saw similar replies on the threads that I mentioned earlier and most of them came from people who never wrote about anything else and all of a sudden jumped in to share an LU success story. Do you see the pattern?

Why don't you share the numbers of your MF deals? Do you own 2 apartments just by yourself or with others? What's your annual income from them?

[John Hixon]

@Donald Hendricks  and @Nick B.    In my opinion you can get all the info and help you need right here on BP.  Take $1,000 - $1,500 per month and use it for direct marketing.  If you got with @Jerry Puckett or @Michael Quarles and spent $18,000 in marketing over the course of a year with them I am sure your ROI would be insane.

[Lee Reeves]

@Nick B., did you not invite me to respond to your request for more information, and that you were considering joining LU?  Was that true, or were you just looking for a target to attack?  (That's the way it feels, buddy.)

I can't speak for any patterns you see in other people's posts on BP.  Can only speak for myself - feels odd to say, but since the implication was made regarding my post, yes I'm a real person, a real investor, don't have all the answers (but am getting more of them every day), a member of LU (but nothing more), etc.  Unlike you, Nick, my profile is available to anyone to see and my whole name is posted.  You can look me up on LinkedIn, Facebook or anything else.  

Happy to share my experience, which is all I was trying to do.  Since you noted a pattern you saw, I'll note one too:  whenever someone who is a member of LU is invited to share their experience or success and they do, they get attacked.  I've seen it in other forums and I was on the receiving end here.  

It's like some folks see an either/or here:  you are either a member of LU -or- a member of BP.  Well, I don't think they're mutually exclusive.  I think BP is a cool website and I sometimes read the articles and posts and get good ideas.  But the truth is - and this may be why LU members don't often post here - I don't need BP since I get answers to all of my questions through LU mentors or the folks I have met through LU.  (And with the latter, I'm at least assured of not being attacked.)  If other folks want to be members of BP and attend the free workshops and case studies at LU, fine by me - at least they've availed themselves of the information.  I'm more comfortable being a member of LU and a free member of BP.

That's a long lead in to saying that I'm not sure I want to subject the details of my deals to your scrutiny.  For what?  So you can pick them apart?  That said, I'm happy to talk about what I've done privately to anyone who is interested.  I did present the details of both deals about a month ago to members of LU.  And I send a comprehensive report of the financials to my investors each month, who are very happy about how we're proceeding.  Both are hybrid-value plays (some cash on cash return during the hold period, larger return on a sale or refi due to increase of value) and both are being stabilized currently.  As they are 14 and 26 units respectively, I do not support my family from the distributions or management fee.  I expect to be able to do so with larger acquisitions in the future, having gained experience acquiring, rehabbing and operating both of these.

Fire away.

[Scott Arpan]

Originally posted by @Chris K.:

I never understood how people could spend that much money on information in an age where you can find everything online. 

Russ Dalbey's students used to call me after he "Certified" them for thousands of dollars. Some said they paid over $20K for training. None of them had a clue about real estate, finance or marketing. However, they were so mesmerized by the hype and hope of the program they felt any failure to close a deal was their fault and all they had to do was buy more training. A good high pressure sales team to twist every last nickle out of a sucker also helps. 

Learning online and through BP does not offer the hype or brainwashing a bad guru spews. Not saying any other training is good or bad. Dalbey just operated in my neck of the woods so I had a front row seat to watch this bad actor in action.

[Kathryn C.]

If they will only allow you to do a 2 year membership to start that tells me they know most of their members go inactive within the first year.  Even if you are a free member on BP I think you would gain more actual knowledge than a site that constantly tries to get you to upgrade memberships

[Nick B.]

@Lee Reeves, I did not mean to attack you and if it feels that way, I apologize. I don't doubt that you're a real person but your post did indeed match the pattern. Hence I made my observation. Again, I am sorry if it hurt your feelings.

Regarding LU, I am trying to set realistic expectations as to what I may be able to achieve with their help. 

I keep hearing Del or Steve talking about their members' 100% returns in a year or two, retiring in 2-5 years, etc. However, they don't say what percentage of their member achieve that level of success. If the success ratio is 1%, it's all based on luck and is not worth the price. If it is 95%, then it is worth the price. So far I have not seen these numbers.

So, please tell me this: how many LU members do you know and how many of them make enough of cash flow to live on? How long did it take you to get your $10K membership fee back via cash flow?

As for my profile, there is nothing to see there - I have no experience in REI (all theoretical at this point) and I am looking for my first deal and for information. That's all.

Thanks
Nick

[Lee Reeves]

@Nick B. (I have no idea how to actually make this link correctly), my feelings weren't hurt, but I am big on integrity and it did feel like a set up to question my integrity.  If I misjudged that, you have my apologies.

I know a good number of members, both basic members and MF members. One guy who has become a friend of mine recently retired from his job (he was an engineer) because he earned enough cash flow from his 5 single family houses and several investments in MF deals. Most of my friends are either full time real estate investors now or are in between - they earn quite a bit of side income from their SF and MF deals (many at over 20% COC), but still work their jobs. Many SF deals that they purchased over the last few years particularly, return over 100% when they sell. I know several that are in MF that have had a 100% return when a refi is done.

Another friend joined a year ago as a basic member, didn't do anything, and a few months ago (May?), got back involved as a SF ("Challenge") member and closed on 2 SF purchases and is in contract on a 3rd.  

I don't know how many people join, but never do the 2-day class.  I also don't know how many join, do the 2-day class and then never do anything.  Though I can't answer those questions, I'd imagine that the 80/20 rule probably applies, which seems like it would be normal.  To be fair, how many join BP and don't do anything?  How many join ANYTHING and fail to take full advantage?  The people I know who have joined, learned the business model and applied it have been able to successfully purchase SF or MF and make a nice return.  Though it's anecdotal and personal to my experience, success is completely dependent on your taking action than it is on whether the business model works or not.

About me personally, I have a small investment in a larger property and funds into two value play properties purchased this year that are just getting to a stabilized point (i.e. no distributions on those two have been made to the partnership), so clearly, there's not much cash flow at this point (my passive investment is cash-flowing at around 12% annualized, but I had a smaller investment, so they're not huge dollars).  I should note for whoever is keeping track that while cash flow IS the ultimate goal, my net worth has increased by $375k+ (a 300%+ unrealized return) as a result of those MF investments (Increase of property value * my ownership % - original investment), so I'm happy with that.

Basically, Nick, you have no REI experience, but are doing an extraordinary amount of due diligence before you attend a free case study - where you get to meet actual members and ask them about their experiences, listen to members present their actual deals, and talk to LU mentors directly. Why don't you do that? What's holding you back? That's probably a better source of info on LU than posting on BP, frankly.

[Carlos Flores]

@Nick B.  I am not a member of LU but know people that are or were members. Many are moving over to the person that ran LU's multifamily program in DFW for years. He has his own thing now. He has a free 2-day MF event about 3 to 4 times per year.

[Nick B.]

@Lee Reeves, for '@' tag to work you need to press '@' and then start typing a person's name. Then pick it from the list below.

Back to LU. I attended their free workshop and a case study event. I was not impressed. The workshop was not "eye opening" despite of what Steve likes to say. It was the same basic stuff that I already new without even reading a single book on the subject. I talked to mentors and asked how many properties they had. One had 4 another one 10. Then I did a little due diligence on them (checked public records) and found that one had 2 and another one had 5. Maybe I was not looking hard enough or maybe they were ... exaggerating. I don't know.

On a case study there was an elderly couple with their first SF deal that took 3 months to rehab and no renters at the time of the presentation. Yet they were talking about cash flow from expected rent but not counting maintenance or vacancies. I felt sorry for them.

In MF nomination there was another couple that presented a 30+ apartment complex with NOI of $160K/year. However, that NOI was split 5 or 6 ways leaving only $20K for the presenters. They also happened to manage the property for another $50K. Not bad but far cry from passive income.

That's why I am generally skeptical about LU even though I want to give them benefit of the doubt.

[Nick B.]

Originally posted by @Carlos Flores:

@Nick B.  I am not a member of LU but know people that are or were members. Many are moving over to the person that ran LU's multifamily program in DFW for years. He has his own thing now. He has a free 2-day MF event about 3 to 4 times per year.

 Would you mind telling the person's name and why he split from LU?

[Hattie Dizmond]

LU is just one of many.  I went to a FortuneBuilder's event.  It was a sales job.  The entire weekend was designed to do nothing more than get you pumped up enough to spend $29k...yes....twenty nine thousand dollars...on their Mastery Program.  If you couldn't come up with that, they would "help you out" by providing access to portions of their program in the form of a "Jump Start" for just $2500.  I did a test drive of the Jump Start materials and returned it for a refund.  There was a lot of materials, but it was basically volume over substance.

I learned more in the first 4 hours I was engaged with BP than I did in the full 3 day workshop or the 2-weeks I spent with their materials.

I manage a Project Management Office. I have Project Managers who need every spelled out for them and laid out in a connect the dots fashion. Every process, procedure and methodology has to be fully fleshed out and cut-n-paste or they wander around in the wilderness accomplishing nothing. If that's your personality type, then go spend that money. However, I question whether a business venture like REI, which is - by nature - very entrepreneurial is the best vehicle for you. It would seem that personality type might be more suited to engage with REI as a passive investor in real estate activities, rather than being actively engaged in the business of REI.

That's just my 2 cents, but I personally wouldn't give you 2 cents for the guru courses or their one size fits all "systems".

[Chris K.]

Originally posted by @Lee Reeves:

Chris K, I think the answer to your statement is that yes, lots of information is available.  But what is the best information?  What works and what does not?  What is clearly right and what is clearly incorrect?  

Having purchased both single family and multifamily properties and as a member of BP and LU, I can say that I get value from both.  But without LU and the business model they teach, I would not have had the real estate successes I have had.  I get new ideas from BP and like it a lot, but it was not the catalyst for action for me.

 You're absolutely right and that's one of the main reasons I will not spend thousands of dollars on information that I know can be had free or much cheaper. You took the chance and it worked for you but you didn't know that was the best or correct information before you paid for it. 

All of that information you learned from LU isn't any information that wasn't already out there, they just package it up and streamline it for their members (which is great). But the beauty of BP is that all that information that people have learned can be pooled. That great business model that you credit your success to is knowledge that, if you were willing, wouldn't cost you anything to share on here or cost anyone to learn on here.

[Lee Reeves]

@Nick B. , thanks for the linking tutorial!  Sorry to hear about the SF presenter.  I haven't encountered anything like that in Houston.  I'd have to assume that is not typical in Dallas either and am amazed that they would put someone up who took 3 months in rehab and hadn't rented it out.  Rehab should take no more than 2-3 weeks and should be rented before the first month is up.  On the MF, I guess I would ask what you would expect to be the case?  If they purchased it themselves without partners, you have to come up with all of the equity.  If you don't have the equity yourself, you can take on investors in your deal (all subject and in line with SEC, of course), but your share is diluted.  I think the real question about that deal is what their return was, both cash flow and any increase in value.

@Hattie Dizmond I'm not sure if the "you" in your post was a royal "you" or if you were referring to me directly. If the latter, all I can say is that REI is very entrepreneurial, but there are best practices. And I'm not the first to have encountered whatever it is. If you're up for the trial-and-error approach (and consider that part and parcel to being an entrepreneur), no slings from me. But learning from others and copying their success seems like a better business model to me. And I learn just as much from other members of LU who do MF REI as I do from LU at this point. That's one of the real values of that group. Of course, I have no experience with FortuneBuilders and sounds like you have no experience with LU, so I can't draw a parallel between them at all.

@Chris K. With respect, have you purchased anything yet? Your profile says you're seeking properties. I hate to be a defender of LU here (nobody has asked me to be, certainly), so I guess I'm really just defending my choices and my experience with them - BUT, I talked to a couple members before I joined. I asked them what their experience was and it was a good one. So, I didn't jump blindly. And I think I've even heard them say that there are no secrets in real estate. They don't claim that, but they do claim to have one of the best business models out there, which I have personal investing experience with and think is true. If there are 100+ different ways to do SF and MF REI, do you think they quantitatively are all the best approach? Of course not. How can you sort through that on BP? LU might not have any proprietary information, but by teaching their business model and then supporting it through their vendor list, mentors being available, further classes by vendors, and networking with other members, what they do have is very powerful for any buy-and-hold investor looking to do it right.

One last point and then I think I'll put down my mantle here (I have properties to run and this is a time-suck!): LU has produced the National Apartment Association Independent Owner of the Year for 9 of the last 9 years. I had dinner with the 2013 and 2014 award winners last night (who have also won Houston Apartment Association and Texas Apartment Association awards) and discussed what they are doing at their complexes that I can think about or borrow for mine. That's not an atypical meeting or conversation. And these are serious businesspeople that have done tremendously well for themselves and their investors. I'll put my lot in with them any day. When a trainee or paid member of BP wins a national award for implementing what they've learned here, I'll certainly listen to those who think I've overspent on an REI education. But probably not until. ;-)

[Hattie Dizmond]

There absolutely are best practices, which is why I'm on BP. Read my profile, and you'll find I believe in learning from others. But, best practices are concepts, not cookie cutter formulas.
The illustration FortuneBuilders likes to use is a McDonald's franchise. Every McDonalds follows the exact same formula & process...exactly the same from how someone working the counter calls for more fries to what supplier furnishes the hamburger buns.
That's great for McDonalds, because it produces an economy of scale, it's a proven formula, and customers know exactly what to expect, when they see a McDonalds' sign. But, my REI business doesn't look like anyone else's. Teaching me a formula doesn't ensure my success, which is what these groups tout. The access to a community and the coaching that comes from that community is 1/2 of what FortuneBuilder's sales pitch is based on. The Mastery program is the system and the access to this "mastermind" group. The problem with their version of a mastermind group is that they are all drinking the same kool-aid. They are all using the same formula and tools. A true mastermind group challenges each other's methods, assumptions and thought processes. Constructive conflict and tension is what fuels innovation. If I'm only talking to a bunch of people who are following the exact same map I am, then the best I can hope for is for those who are further along the highway to tell me what might not be apparent from the map...hey that exit from I-35 to I-30 is a left exit, and you need to make sure you're over to the left well in advance of the split. Great, thanks for the tip, but if I don't want to go to downtown Dallas, why wouldn't I have just taken 635 and avoided that whole process?
Like I said, it's my opinion. Processes, procedures and methodologies are 90% of what I do in my full-time job. But, those things are based on best practices, not necessarily duplicates of them. And they have been customized and "right sized" for my organization.
The "you" in my earlier post was a generic reference to a specific personality type. I have know idea if that is you or not. If I had intended the statement for you, I would have tagged your user name.
Finally, it's amazing to me how many people on BP post an opinion in an open forum and then get all wound up, when people reply with dissenting opinions. Or, and this one is aimed at you, read something caveated as an opinion or with limited application and respond as though what was written had been put forth as a blanket statement of fact, applying to all scenarios.

[Chris K.]

Originally posted by @Lee Reeves:

@Chris K. With respect, have you purchased anything yet? Your profile says you're seeking properties. I hate to be a defender of LU here (nobody has asked me to be, certainly), so I guess I'm really just defending my choices and my experience with them - BUT, I talked to a couple members before I joined. I asked them what their experience was and it was a good one. So, I didn't jump blindly. And I think I've even heard them say that there are no secrets in real estate. They don't claim that, but they do claim to have one of the best business models out there, which I have personal investing experience with and think is true. If there are 100+ different ways to do SF and MF REI, do you think they quantitatively are all the best approach? Of course not. How can you sort through that on BP? LU might not have any proprietary information, but by teaching their business model and then supporting it through their vendor list, mentors being available, further classes by vendors, and networking with other members, what they do have is very powerful for any buy-and-hold investor looking to do it right.

I'm not sure how if I purchased or not is relevant but yes I have. Does that validate my opinion now lol? Yes I'm also still seeking properties, surely you're still seeking properties too right? 

It definitely seems like you're rationalizing/defending your choice to join them which again if it worked for you then it was worth it. But like you said none of their information they have is proprietary they just package it up and provide support. Just like many other things in life you can either be a self learner or pay to learn, both can work. 

If you are in REI to win an award then yes, the best people to learn from are people who have won awards. If you're in it for success or financial freedom then the best people to learn from are people who have become successful or achieved financial freedom and there are plenty of people here (or other non-paid networking mediums) who have done it and will share their business models, vendors and answer questions. Not knocking you personally cause like I said if you feel you got your moneys worth from it then you got your moneys worth, it's just not a choice I'd make.

[Greg H.]

@Lee Reeves 

@Nick B. 

Lee, I think it is proper for him to question your posts.  It is a red flag when you see that all a person has posted about is to promote a company or a product on a message board.  You do seem very passionate regarding LU.  I cannot imagine spending $10,000 or more to gain information in this world is at your fingertips world we live in today !  I fondly remember the days when I got started buying lots for $25 and condos for $4000.  I wish I would have had $10,000 back then

[Tyrus Shivers]

Seems to me people are paying for motivation rather than information. Motivation can be attained for free as well if you surround yourself with the right group of people. If I had to pay someone it would be those guys I see everyday doing deals, not the ones I can only reach by phone or email. @J Scott and @Ned Carey are two who share it all, meet with you, and ask nothing in return. Why would I pay 20K when guys like this exist and are willing to help and share. My business has increased and multiplied just due to coffee and a few ride arounds with them.

[Lee Reeves]

Originally posted by @Greg Hall:

Lee, I think it is proper for him to question your posts.  It is a red flag when you see that all a person has posted about is to promote a company or a product on a message board.  You do seem very passionate regarding LU.  I cannot imagine spending $10,000 or more to gain information in this world is at your fingertips world we live in today ! 

Oh, good grief.  I've been nothing but upfront.  On your last point, I guess you didn't go to college?  You've never paid for a course in your professional life?  If you guys want to wade through the muck to get the right answers, that's fine.  I just seek my information from qualified people, LU or not. 

[Lee Reeves]

[Lee Reeves]

@Tyrus Shivers I think you make a solid point.  I have learned so much from my friends (who I happened to meet through LU), but one-on-one with them.  That is the true strength - finding people who have done what you want to do (this is the key) and doing what they do.  Better altogether if they teach you directly.  Giving back and paying it forward is the real deal.