Should I get new cabinets, toilets, etc?

[Sam Zawatsky]

So, I’ve got this rental property, was currently renting at 1000 per month, but I am trying to get 1400-1500 per month now. It has cabinets that are original, 45 years old. The cabinet under the sink had water damage to the base, and I have the option of just repairing that and painting the inside of it. Or I could just get all new cabinets top and bottom. Which would you do? Also, the toilets are old, probably 15-25 years old. Do you recommend just getting new toilets put in, because I am having the old really worn and poorly laid tile floors replaced with full LVP so they would need to be reseated anyway. I was eyeing the American standard cadet 3 toilets if I was to replace.

[Ty Coutts]

Hi Sam,

Given your goal of increasing the rental rate to $1,400-$1,500 per month, I would suggest investing in new cabinets and toilets. Replacing the 45-year-old cabinets with new ones will significantly enhance the kitchen's appeal, making the property more attractive to potential tenants. As you're already replacing the old tile floors with LVP, installing new toilets like the American Standard Cadet 3 during this process is practical and will provide a more modern and efficient bathroom setup. These updates can justify the higher rent and potentially reduce maintenance issues in the future. Feel free to reach out directly if you need anything else. Hope this helps!

[Jacob Sherman]

how much do you think the renovation will be ? 

[Scott Mac]

You could look at some of your close competitors who have already done this type of renovation and find out what kind of rent they are getting.

The problem is you never know how long the time on market is for that rent or if they're actually going to get that rent it could just be the asking price and then they lower it or something over time.

Good Luck!

[Sam Zawatsky]

I am not sure how much the total renovation will be . I am thinking 8k for floors. 6k for siding replacement / frame/ termite repair, 2k for bathroom / shower/ tub refurbishing, 600 optional for 2 toilets installed, 2k for countertops + sink,  400 for light fixtures, then 4k optional for cabinets . So 19k without new cabinets . 23k with new cabinets

[Peter Mckernan]

Quote from @Sam Zawatsky:

So, I’ve got this rental property, was currently renting at 1000 per month, but I am trying to get 1400-1500 per month now. It has cabinets that are original, 45 years old. The cabinet under the sink had water damage to the base, and I have the option of just repairing that and painting the inside of it. Or I could just get all new cabinets top and bottom. Which would you do? Also, the toilets are old, probably 15-25 years old. Do you recommend just getting new toilets put in, because I am having the old really worn and poorly laid tile floors replaced with full LVP so they would need to be reseated anyway. I was eyeing the American standard cadet 3 toilets if I was to replac

My suggestion on this one with getting top rents is going to do all that you can do without doing a full flip. For example, if you are going to try to get 400-500 more, thank you need to update cabinets, update flooring throughout and update the bathroom/kitchen. There are ways to do this to not spend money like you are flipping the place. 

[Bill J Fay]

What do the comps look like that are renting for $1400-1500? Since this is a 50% increase, I would think you would have to have a dialed rental unit. Depending on the comps, a good use of money is having your bathroom tub/tile surround resurfaced. I would also recommend replacing the toilets, replacing the kitchen appliances, and painting the cabinets. With that being said, make sure the level of work matches comps that are renting for the return you are looking for.

[Sam Zawatsky]

Regarding the cabinets, do you see how the lower edge of that cabinet on the end is looking like it is a bit warped or peeling? Can this be remedied? I agree that the 3-4k expense of getting new cabinets may not be worth it as opposed to spending maybe 400-600 on repairing these and repainting . What color do you think goes well with the repose gray of the walls? I painted the whole interior of the house repose gray from Sherwin Williams . Maybe  Extra white for the cabinets?

[Calvin Thomas]

Around 12k.

New toilet

New cabinets

Min. 12mm waterproof LVP with pad and Underlinement over the current flooring throughout the apartment.  Prob. worth reglazing the tub too.

[Calvin Thomas]

Permethrin SFR Insecticide 36.8 % for inside the building where you had the termite issue. Spectracide Terminate Termite Detection & Killing Stakes around the building if you have dirt and grass.

[Matthew Paul]

Fix the cabinets , paint them white ( Sherwin williams gallery is an great cabinet paint ) .  Some led recessed lighting in the kitchen and a new counter top . LVP flooring the whole level , including bathrooms . Yes new toilets and have the tubs reglazed as well as the tile walls . 

Cost ?     All depends on your location 

More rent ?    Dont know your area 

[Bruce Woodruff]

I'm going to disagree with @Matthew Paul for the first time ever :-) and say get the new cabinets. You'll recoup that in less than a year and it is such a nice upgrade.....even smells better. What countertops are you getting? I would go to a 'prefinished counters' place and get a quote for their cheapest stone. Even an ugly granite is better than formica (IMHO).

[Theresa Harris]

Quote from @Sam Zawatsky:

I am not sure how much the total renovation will be . I am thinking 8k for floors. 6k for siding replacement / frame/ termite repair, 2k for bathroom / shower/ tub refurbishing, 600 optional for 2 toilets installed, 2k for countertops + sink,  400 for light fixtures, then 4k optional for cabinets . So 19k without new cabinets . 23k with new cabinets

If you are able to increase the rent by $500, it will take 4 years to recoup your investment (assuming $24K).  It may decrease turnover thereby reducing vacancies, but it may not.

[Sam Zawatsky]

I am really split between new cabinets or getting the old ones repaired and painted. I think new cabinets would be around 3000 fully installed. And I’m thinking  it would raise the rent by 50-100 dollars a month. Now as far as countertops, I was gonna get new Formica, which I expect to be about 1600 fully installed with a new sink. Whereas quartz or granite would be around 3200 installed with the new sink. Doesn’t granite have maintenance issues?

[Alecia Loveless]

@Sam Zawatsky We’ve been doing new toilets and new bathroom vanity. We’ve been sanding and painting kitchen cabinets and applying new modern black hardware and new black hinges to make them pop.

For the bathroom vanity Home Depot has a much more modern looking one with sink that looks similar in size to your existing one for about $170. It’s a dark mahogany color and should be a stock item. It really pops with the LVP flooring.

I’ve searched on google “kitchen cabinet handles” and “soft closing 3/8” inset hinge” and gotten both for much less expensive than at the box stores. I bought 2 boxes of 50 hinges for I think $68 which is about $220 less than they would cost in-store. I think I bought 50 handles for around $44.

That was two boxes of 50 hinges. They may have come in smaller sizes too but we’re using so many I stocked up.

We then store the extras for the next project.

[Theresa Harris]

Quote from @Sam Zawatsky:

I am really split between new cabinets or getting the old ones repaired and painted. I think new cabinets would be around 3000 fully installed. And I’m thinking  it would raise the rent by 50-100 dollars a month. Now as far as countertops, I was gonna get new Formica, which I expect to be about 1600 fully installed with a new sink. Whereas quartz or granite would be around 3200 installed with the new sink. Doesn’t granite have maintenance issues?

 Price out repairs and painting (with an enamel paint).  Some of the older cabinets are more solid than the newer less expensive ones.

[Ryan Treacy]

Sam, in my experience the little details like this help vacancy rates and increase the monthly rent.
bathroom: Toilets are cheap and are easy to install. The bathtub tile might just need to have the grout cleaned, you’d be surprised how much that makes a difference and it would probably take an hour or two. 
Kitchen: at first glance it looks rough, but you could easily remove the water damaged wood below the sink and replace it with plywood. For the side of the cabinet, you can install a panel or do a waterfall edge countertop to cover up the damage. 

Good luck!

[Michael P.]

Quote from @Sam Zawatsky:

I am really split between new cabinets or getting the old ones repaired and painted. I think new cabinets would be around 3000 fully installed. And I’m thinking  it would raise the rent by 50-100 dollars a month. Now as far as countertops, I was gonna get new Formica, which I expect to be about 1600 fully installed with a new sink. Whereas quartz or granite would be around 3200 installed with the new sink. Doesn’t granite have maintenance issues?

 paint them 100%

[Nate Armstrong]

Quote from @Sam Zawatsky:

So, I’ve got this rental property, was currently renting at 1000 per month, but I am trying to get 1400-1500 per month now. It has cabinets that are original, 45 years old. The cabinet under the sink had water damage to the base, and I have the option of just repairing that and painting the inside of it. Or I could just get all new cabinets top and bottom. Which would you do? Also, the toilets are old, probably 15-25 years old. Do you recommend just getting new toilets put in, because I am having the old really worn and poorly laid tile floors replaced with full LVP so they would need to be reseated anyway. I was eyeing the American standard cadet 3 toilets if I was to replace.

To maximize your rental income potential, you should consider replacing the old cabinets and installing new toilets. Upgrading these features can significantly enhance the appeal of your property and justify the higher rent you aim to charge.

[Hunter Stoudnour]

Quote from @Sam Zawatsky:

I am really split between new cabinets or getting the old ones repaired and painted. I think new cabinets would be around 3000 fully installed. And I’m thinking  it would raise the rent by 50-100 dollars a month. Now as far as countertops, I was gonna get new Formica, which I expect to be about 1600 fully installed with a new sink. Whereas quartz or granite would be around 3200 installed with the new sink. Doesn’t granite have maintenance issues?

Sam, I am not sure what your long term goals of this property are but I think painting the cabinets could add a nice touch for little cost. I have done so for a few of my properties and its amazing how much it improves the look. I've went with white, gray, and even a navy blue for one of my kitchens. 

[Calvin Thomas]

Quote from @Hunter Stoudnour:

Quote from @Sam Zawatsky:

I am really split between new cabinets or getting the old ones repaired and painted. I think new cabinets would be around 3000 fully installed. And I’m thinking  it would raise the rent by 50-100 dollars a month. Now as far as countertops, I was gonna get new Formica, which I expect to be about 1600 fully installed with a new sink. Whereas quartz or granite would be around 3200 installed with the new sink. Doesn’t granite have maintenance issues?

Sam, I am not sure what your long term goals of this property are but I think painting the cabinets could add a nice touch for little cost. I have done so for a few of my properties and its amazing how much it improves the look. I've went with white, gray, and even a navy blue for one of my kitchens. 

 These are really ugly and dated cabinets.  Getting a good quality tenant with these cabinets, painted or not, could prove challenging. Now, if you want a section 8 tenant, then yea, it's doable. 

[Marcus Auerbach]

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

I'm going to disagree with @Matthew Paul for the first time ever :-) and say get the new cabinets. You'll recoup that in less than a year and it is such a nice upgrade.....even smells better. What countertops are you getting? I would go to a 'prefinished counters' place and get a quote for their cheapest stone. Even an ugly granite is better than formica (IMHO).

I'm going to disagree with Bruce for the first time ever lol - IMO no need for stone (quarz, granite). Most of our units have new kitchens and bathrooms and less than 10% have stone. We do value design a lot and make sure that we have a great-looking color combo, but we buy mostly stock laminate. The idea is to replace them for a few bucks if they get damaged, but we have next to no issues with countertops. Not a significant difference to stone. And it's not only the cost, it's also install time: a couple hours vs 2 weeks.

Totally agree on replacing cabinets. I have gone down the path of painting a few times and it is quite labor intense and with that not cheap, it has to bone REALLY well - prep-work, primer, coat finish, the right products etc otherwise you get crap results. And when you do replace them, stay away from cheap cabinets with MDF front and stapled drawers, go at least plywood. Much more durable.

New toilets are a new brainer, also stay away from cheap brands, go mid grade. Flush better, clean better, last longer.

Updated kitchens and bathrooms equal not only higher rents, you also attract better tenants. Well worth it!

[Jill F.]

That's a pretty nice layout to start with. If you are using click lock LVP you won't need to pull your existing cabinets because cabinets do not sit on floating floors. I would upgrade the design by adding a peninsula since it looks like the space might permit it. You could add one cabinet, a lazy susan, next to the drawer base to the left of the stove space and then install an island top. We have found that counter height island seating is EXTREMELY popular with young renters. Design really *really* matters. Have a bad design and you are wasting your money. We use ikea laminate counters, the stock ekbacken marble effect 74x42 island top is $129 (pictured below). You would need an additional 8' ($99) and '6 counter in the same color. I would install new cabinet doors with hidden hinges on the existing cabinets; I order from Fryburg doors out of Millersburg, Ohio because I'm close enough to pick up and the quality is so very nice, but menards also sells in stock cabinet doors.  Take out the cabinet and valence over the sink and replace with two 36" floating shelves. install a subway tile backsplash (15 cents per 3x6 tile with just a little bit of bling tile). First ***DEGLOSS*** and then paint the cabinets. Install water proof lam or solid core vinyl flooring if you don't have replacements for the white floor tile (which in FL I would live with if I could). If you find that you need to replace cabinet boxes, home depot sells unfinished birch that paints much nicer than the oak cabinets available at menards or lowes (oak can have tannins leak through and yellow the paint if not properly prepped if you use regular paint). Also upgrade your lighting. We managed not to move any lighting in the reno pictured below using one track and 3 linkable recessed lights. You would be looking at less than 3k in materials to upgrade that kitchen including a new basic stainless appliance set. I don't know what labor would cost in your area. One other little nit pick: black rubber toe kick makes any kitchen look low end. https://photos.app.goo.gl/eYPuBDsFpj8cJB6AA

[Bruce Woodruff]

Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

When I talk about prefinished slab houses, there used to be several in San Diego that had plenty of slab with a finished front edge and you could pick up a 8 ft long one for $100 - $200. Their crew wil come out and finish the edges on site, drill sink holes, etc.... At that price-point, it just makes too much sense to me, you can even put it in mid level apartments..... :-)

[Sam Zawatsky]

I'm still getting quotes for painting the cabinets vs getting new ones. So far, a company quoted me $3200 for painting, vs $6500 to install new plywood cabinets. I think this is all far too expensive, and I'm thinking now I'm going to go  there and paint these cabinets myself over a weekend for closer to $200 . Do these numbers sound normal to everyone? To me, it sounds really expensive. I haven't priced out the home depot or Ikea cabinets yet, but I would expect around 2000+1000 for install

[Dan H.]

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

When I talk about prefinished slab houses, there used to be several in San Diego that had plenty of slab with a finished front edge and you could pick up a 8 ft long one for $100 - $200. Their crew wil come out and finish the edges on site, drill sink holes, etc.... At that price-point, it just makes too much sense to me, you can even put it in mid level apartments..... :-)

 Now prefab slabs typically start at ~$300 for 8’ (not counting discounted for some reason which is less).  You can tell the fab is not high end but it is good enough for up to class b rentals.  Use high end stone sealer even though they supposedly have been sealed.  

my issue with this whole effort is the effort/cost/risk for $400 to $500 extra rent.  

What is the current loan rate?. The reason I ask is if the loan is near market rate (versus the rates available 2.5 years ago) then a refi to extract sweat equity could make this more worth the effort, risk, cost. 

to be blunt, with the numbers as presented and without any extract of value (refinance), I am unconvinced that the smart move was not to re-rent in current condition for $1k. This remodel If hands off looks to me like $30k effort. At $400/month additional rent using 50% rule on expenses is $200 cash flow or 150 months to recover the cost. I recognize this is not fully reflective of reality because even without an extract of value, value was added. What is current value of property and what is ARV? Is the ARV going up at least $1 for every dollar spent on the value add?

I only choose to do a value add if I can project $2 value added for every dollar spent on the value add. This is because they are work and have risk. I typically refi extracting 75% of the value I added. I have also always gotten an assist from market appreciation but let's ignore this. In this scenario, $30k (I no longer do rehabs at this low of a budget) add $60k value of which I get $45k in the 75% LTV cash out refi. This could be worth someone's effort (I would not choose to do it as not enough gain to be worth it to me at this point).

OP have you considered not doing the rehab and renting it at $1k/month?

If you do rehab, I think budget.   Reglaze, repair, paint, etc over buying new.  The rent point makes buying new a problem.  

Good luck