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Updated over 3 years ago, 08/25/2021
House-hacking with a bitcoin farm
Not sure why BP deleted my previous post - seems like the definition of an innovative strategy.
TLDR: I cover my mortgage with a small bitcoin mining farm.
Let me know if you have any questions.
@Matt R.
Wrt the heating comments, this may be as simple as a compact single room ductless HRV unit. They’re ~98% efficient. Not cheap though. But pretty darn cool. I’ve seen them used frequently in net zero homes.
Originally posted by @Yourri-Samuel Dessureault:
.... get additional exposure to BTC with compounding interest of 4.5% APY via BlockFi, and since I report my mining to the IRS I get to do MACRs on my solar panels (which power my miners and the rest of my house) and the mining equipment as it's a business. Needless to say it's a wonderful way to save money/invest while living in California.
Now that is innovation! I think both of you guys are smart and ahead of the power curve on this one. I'm heavily invested in both DeFi and Utility Tokens, but I never got around to mining and I regret it. Using mining to pay for your house, solar, and offset your business expenses all while collecting 4.5% on your investment is pretty impressive.
Not here to debate with anyone who doesn't understand BTC or the DeFi world, just here to give praise where praise is due.
I
I personally have invested in mining BTC, and am expanding into other coins. While not in my home, as the electricity does not scale to what I wanted to achieve. I was (my machines were) in China... they are shut off... I got lucky with a friend and found an available space in the US, very reasonable, that had 60K of electricity provision installed... (@ 0.06 a KWH) which can supply over 150 machines... all on a boat headed home. And I have wrapped a completely independant business around this.
As far as Delfi... take a look at Nexo.io. If you hold 10% of your holding in Nexo coin, they pay 6% interest on BTC (and a number of other coin) and 10% on stable coin like USDT AND on Fiat currency (USD, EURO & GBP) (daily... so daily compound) . They are a great place to HODL ... if you have your 10% Nexo token, finance is like 5.8% of our credit amount, no min paydown. Oh... and Nexo Token went from 0.53 in like Feb to $1.75 today... not a comet out of the sky... but a good return on my 10% purchase.
In terms of comments about how innovative this is, or is not... does it really matter ? Personally, I take a percentage of my profits from my mining operation to reinvest in additional rental properties... no... it is not a new way to fly to the moon... but it is a way that ANYONE can easily generate additional income to grow an investment portfolio... in the case of most here, a real estate portfolio. And as my mining operation grows, and my real estate holdings grow, I gain financial independence that will allow me to quite my day job, which previous, has been the source of growing my real estate portfolio... just now I can do it faster... AND I think that is a goal for most here.
Where is the bad in that !?!? why so much negative ? Offer some constructive criticism if you see a flaw with an approach, that is part of why I come to the posts... but, if you just want to be demeaning... join that other social media site that the rest of the world is on who want to just spew hate. Sorry if that is offensive... but geez !!!
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Ross Bowman:
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
I like the idea and also the heating house part from the other poster. I wonder how the numbers and effort would compare to some defi staking. Are you saying the all in is 18k?
DeFi staking - different approach, but I get what you mean. I'm wary of that myself until the space matures (see recent hack). Mining is really just an alternative to DCA - you just pay for btc in electricity instead of cash, and get more of it long term. For example: for $250 in electricity, I get $1200 in BTC. Whereas if I paid USD, it would be $1200 for $1200. When DeFi staking matures, I'll do some of that too. I just don't really want my bag there, the way it currently exists now.
18k - for me it was, yes. That's rigs plus paying an electrician to come optimize the circuits where I plug them in. You can't run them on regular 120v plugs.
Price of rigs varies a lot - I planned this out in advance and bought my rigs when bitcoin was "dead" during the last dip to 29k. That's when rigs get more affordable. When bitcoin is up, they can literally double in price (or more). Like most things, it's best to buy when other people aren't (if that makes sense).
There's a lot of considerations to mining, but like real estate it can be very profitable if you know what you're doing.
Cool and I hear ya. Defi staking requires a certain level of applied knowledge to minimize 3rd party risk. Definitely not a whole bag deal.
As far as numbers go it appears defi could earn upto 50% less vs mining on a monthly basis. Sort of anyways as you have to account for the defi principle being liquid somehow. And add variables it could be 10% or 90% monthly depending.
I almost want to do an 3 year experiment 18k mining vs 18k defi. The defi is compounding daily or hourly in some cases. I guess the mining is not compounding although the new mining funds could be allocated to be compounded.
I did well on the btc mining stocks. So there is that angle for comparison too I guess. None of these are either or we can understand.
Lastly, how loud are the miners? Like a vacuum cleaner loud or?
They're pretty loud if you get the good ones lol but there's ways too make them quiet. Mine are 75db each, so Im building soundproof boxes for them with exhaust ports (there's ways to DIY this).
One other factor is the resale - if you buy rigs during bear markets, you can always sell them during the bull run for a pretty absurd amount. Current predictions have S19s going for around 25k a pop by EOY, should the bull run hit the low end of projections. Whereas a month ago you could get them for 7k.
It's similar to flipping a house though - do you want to keep it for passive income? Or just take the money and run? Pros and cons to both!
I'll definitely get into DeFi once it's done more on bitcoin itself and established. I was messing with BlockFi a little, but their accidental "sending a bunch of bitcoin out" to people makes me hesitant to store anything there. Currently I self-custody completely, but not opposed to it on a smaller scale?
Originally posted by @Caleb Drake:
Originally posted by @Yourri-Samuel Dessureault:
.... get additional exposure to BTC with compounding interest of 4.5% APY via BlockFi, and since I report my mining to the IRS I get to do MACRs on my solar panels (which power my miners and the rest of my house) and the mining equipment as it's a business. Needless to say it's a wonderful way to save money/invest while living in California.
Now that is innovation! I think both of you guys are smart and ahead of the power curve on this one. I'm heavily invested in both DeFi and Utility Tokens, but I never got around to mining and I regret it. Using mining to pay for your house, solar, and offset your business expenses all while collecting 4.5% on your investment is pretty impressive.
Not here to debate with anyone who doesn't understand BTC or the DeFi world, just here to give praise where praise is due.
I
Awesome response dude, appreciate it! I should probably start taking your approach to not debating anti-coiners XD
Originally posted by @Taylor L.:
What's the ROI with the cost of devices these days? Have you looked at mining other coins?
Kinda like real estate, the answer is: "It depends"
Factors like:
- did you "buy right"? Or overpay for the rig?
- what are your electricity costs?
Things like that. As far as mining other coins: I wont mine other coins directly, because mining is a very very long term play. And I'm not really long-term bullish on any altcoins.
That said: I have used an online service called NiceHash. NiceHash will automatically point your rig at the most profitable coin to mine, at that moment, and then mine it for you. It then automatically converts your reward to BTC. They take a small fee for this. In my opinion, this is the "best of both worlds" approach.
The downside is, you are not getting untouched "virgin bitcoin", which many think will be desirable in the future by financial institutions. I.e., bitcoin that has never been used in a transaction - straight from your rig to your cold storage.
Originally posted by @Steve K.:
This is cool, cheers to your success and thanks for bringing up a fascinating topic! I guess I have to agree with @Don Konipol however, in that as interesting as it is to compare the numbers of BTC mining to having roommates, I think we're talking about totally different businesses here. I'd put mining more in the category of using a bedroom as an office to trade futures contracts, or growing weed or something: higher risk, hopefully higher reward, and completely separate to being a landlord.
Investment opportunities are weighed on a scale of risk/reward and I don't think BTC mining and house-hacking are even close to being equal in terms of risk. House-hacking/having roommates is a tried and true method of building wealth as old as the hills, within which the property owner has a lot of control, low risk, and reasonably quantifiable returns. Mining is a niche within a volatile industry that has been a roller coaster ride over the past few years and also has some big variables that are uncontrollable: global regulation, hardware costs, technological advances in mining equipment and techniques, energy prices, and of course the price of bitcoin to name a few big ones.
However, BTC mining and having roommates doesn't have to be mutually exclusive so I like the fact that you brought this topic up. One could have roommates in part of the house and mining gear in the basement/garage, etc.
This could be especially useful in areas with occupancy limits. For example my town only allows 3 unrelated people to occupy many rental units, so we have a lot of extra bedrooms that can't legally be rented, which could be perfect places to set up BTC mining rigs.
Thanks man! While I agree that this is not "house hacking" in the traditional sense, like with roommates, that's why I shared it in the "innovative strategies" section of the forum. It's something different. Still upset Don, for whatever reason. I like any way to make money off my primary residence! Otherwise it's just a liability haha
And to your point - yes mining has a lot more to it than people realize. Like doing a BRRRR, you really gotta know what you're doing and have the knowledge base. There's so many factors that come into play.
@Ross Bowman This has definitely piqued my interest! Did you set up your own rig or did you buy one?
@Ross Bowman
Question, how does your Bitcoin bedroom income generally compare to your potential roommate bedroom income?
Here is a better idea. Rent space in a colocation data center and scale the operation there. Then rent your bedroom out to someone who needs housing. That would actually be considered house hacking and would help with our national housing shortage.
The people telling you it isn't "house hacking" are not dinosaurs or computer illiterate. They just understand that house hacking involves renting space to humans, lol.
The power demands of mining servers are pretty intense and residential grids are not designed for it. The whole crypto transaction is extremely wasteful. You can do a million credit card transactions with the energy it takes for one Bitcoin transaction. It is not scalable or sustainable.
Wait until government here gets their teeth into it. What happened in China will happen here. The government wants a "central bank digital currency", so they can manipulate it. The biggest appeal of crypto is that it is NOT government controlled, so there is a showdown coming.
Biden administration hates crypto even more than real estate investors. The difference is housing fills a fundamental human need.
@Ross Bowman people like @Don Konipol are just upset they can’t figure how to buy btc, much less mine!
I think this is an amazing idea and very innovative.
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Here is a better idea. Rent space in a colocation data center and scale the operation there. Then rent your bedroom out to someone who needs housing. That would actually be considered house hacking and would help with our national housing shortage.
The people telling you it isn't "house hacking" are not dinosaurs or computer illiterate. They just understand that house hacking involves renting space to humans, lol.
The power demands of mining servers are pretty intense and residential grids are not designed for it. The whole crypto transaction is extremely wasteful. You can do a million credit card transactions with the energy it takes for one Bitcoin transaction. It is not scalable or sustainable.
Wait until government here gets their teeth into it. What happened in China will happen here. The government wants a "central bank digital currency", so they can manipulate it. The biggest appeal of crypto is that it is NOT government controlled, so there is a showdown coming.
Biden administration hates crypto even more than real estate investors. The difference is housing fills a fundamental human need.
I hear ya, definitely the tax man is coming. Today 55% of the worlds top 100 banks own bitcoin so maybe not chinese communist style regulations coming.
As far as the mining and using payments etc, most the payment stuff today does not require mining so off bitcoin network as far as that goes. I guess that payment part quickly evolved more than some might realize. Btc would only be used for the larger purchases today, not the cup of coffee stuff at this junction anyways. But new taxes coming is expected. I would say the space it is still very risky however one slices it.
The total banning in the western world does not look very likely still. Its is easily farther along than legal weed at least.
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Here is a better idea. Rent space in a colocation data center and scale the operation there. Then rent your bedroom out to someone who needs housing. That would actually be considered house hacking and would help with our national housing shortage.
The people telling you it isn't "house hacking" are not dinosaurs or computer illiterate. They just understand that house hacking involves renting space to humans, lol.
The power demands of mining servers are pretty intense and residential grids are not designed for it. The whole crypto transaction is extremely wasteful. You can do a million credit card transactions with the energy it takes for one Bitcoin transaction. It is not scalable or sustainable.
Wait until government here gets their teeth into it. What happened in China will happen here. The government wants a "central bank digital currency", so they can manipulate it. The biggest appeal of crypto is that it is NOT government controlled, so there is a showdown coming.
Biden administration hates crypto even more than real estate investors. The difference is housing fills a fundamental human need.
I hear ya, definitely the tax man is coming. Today 55% of the worlds top 100 banks own bitcoin so maybe not chinese communist style regulations coming.
As far as the mining and using payments etc, most the payment stuff today does not require mining so off bitcoin network as far as that goes. I guess that payment part quickly evolved more than some might realize. Btc would only be used for the larger purchases today, not the cup of coffee stuff at this junction anyways. But new taxes coming is expected. I would say the space it is still very risky however one slices it.
The total banning in the western world does not look very likely still. Its is easily farther along than legal weed at least.
Banks are also looking to make their own crypto currency, as are governments, even cannabis dealers. Ultimately the only advantage that Bitcoin has is first mover advantage. As the options for crypto get wider, so does the risk in my opinion. One thing that has made crypto values explode is adoption by the average/novice investor. Unfortunately this can be a big problem. These are usually the people left holding the bag during a crash. The smart money rides it up high and gets out, leaving the novice investor holding the bag. Then these people cry foul and demand the government take action. I am not saying it will be banned, but there are a lot of moving pieces and risk here.
The analogy to legal weed is interesting. They have encountered major challenges in the banking and finance space. They have even used crypto as a vehicle to collect payment and store wealth. When (not if) cannabis is Federally decriminalized, it will be a major shift in money flow.
Originally posted by @Taylor L.:
What's the ROI with the cost of devices these days? Have you looked at mining other coins?
Like real estate the answer on ROI is really "it depends". For me its pretty good - one rig for 7k is doing $1200 worth of BTC a month (at the current bitcoin price) before electricity.
Electricity is about 275-300 per month for 1 rig.
Originally posted by @Daniel Avenel:
I personally have invested in mining BTC, and am expanding into other coins. While not in my home, as the electricity does not scale to what I wanted to achieve. I was (my machines were) in China... they are shut off... I got lucky with a friend and found an available space in the US, very reasonable, that had 60K of electricity provision installed... (@ 0.06 a KWH) which can supply over 150 machines... all on a boat headed home. And I have wrapped a completely independant business around this.
As far as Delfi... take a look at Nexo.io. If you hold 10% of your holding in Nexo coin, they pay 6% interest on BTC (and a number of other coin) and 10% on stable coin like USDT AND on Fiat currency (USD, EURO & GBP) (daily... so daily compound) . They are a great place to HODL ... if you have your 10% Nexo token, finance is like 5.8% of our credit amount, no min paydown. Oh... and Nexo Token went from 0.53 in like Feb to $1.75 today... not a comet out of the sky... but a good return on my 10% purchase.
In terms of comments about how innovative this is, or is not... does it really matter ? Personally, I take a percentage of my profits from my mining operation to reinvest in additional rental properties... no... it is not a new way to fly to the moon... but it is a way that ANYONE can easily generate additional income to grow an investment portfolio... in the case of most here, a real estate portfolio. And as my mining operation grows, and my real estate holdings grow, I gain financial independence that will allow me to quite my day job, which previous, has been the source of growing my real estate portfolio... just now I can do it faster... AND I think that is a goal for most here.
Where is the bad in that !?!? why so much negative ? Offer some constructive criticism if you see a flaw with an approach, that is part of why I come to the posts... but, if you just want to be demeaning... join that other social media site that the rest of the world is on who want to just spew hate. Sorry if that is offensive... but geez !!!
I.e., those who don't understand it, feel they missed out, whatever. It's easier to dismiss something than admit "I was wrong" - especially for experienced investors.
Kinda like how Buffet passed on both Amazon and Apple.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Ross Bowman
Question, how does your Bitcoin bedroom income generally compare to your potential roommate bedroom income?
Originally posted by @Phirak Kong:
@Ross Bowman This has definitely piqued my interest! Did you set up your own rig or did you buy one?
GPU rigs are a different story. I run ASICs though.
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Here is a better idea. Rent space in a colocation data center and scale the operation there. Then rent your bedroom out to someone who needs housing. That would actually be considered house hacking and would help with our national housing shortage.
The people telling you it isn't "house hacking" are not dinosaurs or computer illiterate. They just understand that house hacking involves renting space to humans, lol.
The power demands of mining servers are pretty intense and residential grids are not designed for it. The whole crypto transaction is extremely wasteful. You can do a million credit card transactions with the energy it takes for one Bitcoin transaction. It is not scalable or sustainable.
Wait until government here gets their teeth into it. What happened in China will happen here. The government wants a "central bank digital currency", so they can manipulate it. The biggest appeal of crypto is that it is NOT government controlled, so there is a showdown coming.
Biden administration hates crypto even more than real estate investors. The difference is housing fills a fundamental human need.
Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but a lot of what you're saying comes from a misinformed place on this subject.
I wouldn't listen to the MSM when it comes to bitcoin mining. It's like listening to a stocks-only investor on real estate. They just don't know what they don't know.
And I really hope Im not sounding like a jerk here. Im happy to elaborate on the above, just understand that everything you said has a strong counter with evidence. Like real estate, there's so much misinformation about all of this out there.
Originally posted by @David New:
@Ross Bowman people like @Don Konipol are just upset they can’t figure how to buy btc, much less mine!
I think this is an amazing idea and very innovative.
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Here is a better idea. Rent space in a colocation data center and scale the operation there. Then rent your bedroom out to someone who needs housing. That would actually be considered house hacking and would help with our national housing shortage.
The people telling you it isn't "house hacking" are not dinosaurs or computer illiterate. They just understand that house hacking involves renting space to humans, lol.
The power demands of mining servers are pretty intense and residential grids are not designed for it. The whole crypto transaction is extremely wasteful. You can do a million credit card transactions with the energy it takes for one Bitcoin transaction. It is not scalable or sustainable.
Wait until government here gets their teeth into it. What happened in China will happen here. The government wants a "central bank digital currency", so they can manipulate it. The biggest appeal of crypto is that it is NOT government controlled, so there is a showdown coming.
Biden administration hates crypto even more than real estate investors. The difference is housing fills a fundamental human need.
I hear ya, definitely the tax man is coming. Today 55% of the worlds top 100 banks own bitcoin so maybe not chinese communist style regulations coming.
As far as the mining and using payments etc, most the payment stuff today does not require mining so off bitcoin network as far as that goes. I guess that payment part quickly evolved more than some might realize. Btc would only be used for the larger purchases today, not the cup of coffee stuff at this junction anyways. But new taxes coming is expected. I would say the space it is still very risky however one slices it.
The total banning in the western world does not look very likely still. Its is easily farther along than legal weed at least.
The whole "it can only be used for big stuff" is an outdated critique from 2015.
Originally posted by @Tanner Crawley:
@Ross Bowman
@Yourri-Samuel Dessureault
I would love a detailed write-up/ case study. I have a few spaces where this might work.
Happy to do that - just not sure where it would go. This kind of thing always upsets some people.
A lot of boomer energy going on in this thread. Lol. Good for you man, I think this is a pretty interesting angle on house hacking.
Originally posted by @Anthony Caruso:
A lot of boomer energy going on in this thread. Lol. Good for you man, I think this is a pretty interesting angle on house hacking.
Lol thanks man. And yeah, peak boomer energy going around...