Gatlinburg STR Permit - Large 6br pool cabin - Letter from Fire Marshall

[Josh Madigan]

I own a 6br pool cabin that sleeps 20+ and am going through the process of adding sprinkler system to bring it up to code for >12 occupancy.  However I just received a very concerning letter from the Fire Marshall Office saying I need to provide a notarized letter within 5 days stating I will not have more than 12 occupants in the cabin until I change the Certificate of Occupancy which would be devastating to my bookings.  Are they actually going to start enforcing this?

Does anyone know what else needs to be done to change the certificate of occupancy from less than 12 to greater than 12 besides the sprinkler installation and has anyone successfully gone through this process?

[John Underwood]

We just had our inspection and he only complained about some deck boards.

I'd get the sprinkler system put in ASAP and abide by the 12 occupants until then. The last you want to do is make an enemy of the firemarshall as they could permanently pull your permit to be able to rent at all.

[Josh Madigan]

My calendar is booked with large groups for the next 6 months they are expecting me to cancel all of those bookings? 

[Kevin Luttrell]

John must have lucked out. I had a similar experience to you Josh and my management company said all of their other owners are experiencing the same. The fire inspectors couldn't care less about your bookings and are taking their jobs VERY seriously. 

Had my inspections done a month or two ago and they checked about a dozen items per property that had to be corrected and told us the properties were deemed "uninhabitable" until then and no one could stay in them. We cancelled our bookings for the next week while completing the work as quickly as possible, since as John mentioned they have the power to permanently pull your permit so you cannot rent at all. Once the work was completed we alerted the inspector and tried to get him back out ASAP to verify, but he wouldn't get back to us. They're extremely busy with all the inspections and permits they have to get done in the area. We did not continue to cancel our bookings after that - I decided that it was worth the risk since we did what was asked of us and wouldn't be fair for us to have to wait for him to have time to come back. 

So long story short I don't think it's likely they'll come back and check on your property to make sure you're not renting prior to sprinkler installation, but they can if they want to and if they find renters they can permanently pull your permit. Up to you on whether or not it's worth the risk. 

[Josh Madigan]

Thanks for the response, this makes sense.  I've scheduled my sprinkler install and working on the egress.  

Do they schedule the inspections ahead of time or just show up randomly and unannounced?

[Tanya Solomon]

Quote from @Josh Madigan:

My calendar is booked with large groups for the next 6 months they are expecting me to cancel all of those bookings? 

The short answer is YES, they would have you cancel any and all rez that's for 13 or more. Like Kevin stated, they don't care about your business even though Im sure you are not only generating income for the area the cabin is in (generating local sales tax) but presumably you are paying taxes not only on your property but on the income you make from STR biz.

"Sizing up"= determining HOW FAR a Fire Chief and/or the local building/planning department of the jurisdiction your cabin is in can/will go is both a science and an art, IMO.* This could be a standard issue type thing and if u do nothing, nothing will happen or it could end up being your worse nightmare. 

Like others have said, Id do WHATEVER you need to to get a COMPLIANT sprinkling system up ASAP. This is the time to call in favors with plumber buddies and or ppl you might know in this field. QUIETLY ask around the community who most ppl use for sprinklers. You might luck out and find a guy that on the DL hates gov and loves to comply just to take back the "power." 

Do a ton of due diligence bc that doesn't cost u anything but time. I find if I do the "heavy lifting" like drawing out a system and or the floor plan of the cabin, you can find a guy to do the "official" work fast and for a cheaper price than if you sit back and do nothing. Also, knowing the tech terms for a project benefits u bc guys will know you know SOMETHING about what is involved. 

Personally, Id hire someone who will either straight up guarantee or all but guarantee you'll pass if they do the work. Ive never done a sprinkling system on a home but I have had electricians promise they will pass bc they know the current guidelines/codes/requirements so well. Shop around if you can to determine what is a good rate to pay. As long as it is not over 25% of the going rate, Id happily pay extra for a knowledgeable person to help me make my problem go away. What you want to steer clear of is the design firms types that will tell you that not only will it be expensive but take a ton of time. Let those guys hold out for Jeff Bezos types that want to throw massive chunks of $ at things like cabins in the woods. 

You prob just need "existing and proposed" plans that show the floor plan of the home=existing (an architect can do this for prob 2-3k) and then the system IN the cabin=proposed. I find with ANY project on a property, PLANS are worth their weight in gold bc they will show the exact inches, ft, etc that the project entails. Permit expeditors (they usually know how hard it is to do in that area too) are great if everything is not already completely online with the jurisdiction. Not only are they knowledgeable but they can potentially get your plans through quicker. 

Another consideration is insurance. G*d forbid something happens and there is a fire or other loss. If you were not in compliance with the sprinklers AND notified, the insurance co could deny your or anyone else's claim. This could leave you exposed if you do not own your cabin under an LLC or corp (im not a lawyer so plz don't take me on this 100%) The upside might be that your insurance could go down with the sprinklers installed.

Im sure the cost is a hard pill to swallow but try and keep your eye on the long term prize of making $ on a thriving STR biz. If your calendar is packed, this indicates you are in a strong market and will quickly make ROI AND you wont have to worry about this issue again.

Maybe if you can prove that you are actively trying to gain compliance, that will get you the much needed time to gather $, time to pull the permit and ppl to perform the work bc they will have a bit of mercy on you bc you are trying to do the right thing. 

I WOULD NOT recommend doing something like bringing to their (Fire dept, building/ planning or any other governing agency) attention your STR rezs. In my experience, they could make u an "example" bc STRs can have a bad rep. Especially in places where ppl can own more than their primary res. PLAY YOUR CARDS CLOSE TO YOUR CHEST. Ppl get testy about $ and things like their home(s) thus enjoy seeing others "squirm." Best not upset that hornets nest.

*I USED to own properties in San Mateo Co CA (Silicon Valley)and found that the Building/planning dept was so malfeasant and next to impossible to work with that I sold my properties AFTER I spent YEARS trying to 1st get plans approved,** then completing the work. I DID make ROI and then some. The day after I set precedence, I gave my info to others who had "illegal" ADUs and a basic "road map" to get themselves legal.

**I had a tiny home I wanted to use ADU laws to make legal. State not only allows but makes policies to force counties to comply but counties DO resist and purposely make the process very difficult.

[Collin Hays]

Quote from @Josh Madigan:

My calendar is booked with large groups for the next 6 months they are expecting me to cancel all of those bookings? 

 "They" couldn't care less.  

[John Underwood]

Quote from @Josh Madigan:

Thanks for the response, this makes sense.  I've scheduled my sprinkler install and working on the egress.  

Do they schedule the inspections ahead of time or just show up randomly and unannounced?

They schedule the inspections. We had ours done on a turnover day so we didn't miss a beat.

We have a 6 bedroom cabin in Wears Valley that can sleep up to 23. Maybe we can work something out if you need to move people? Contact me if you want to discuss.

[John Underwood]

Stupid question,  did you not see the published inspection list that showed you would need a sprinkler system?

I saw the list almost a year ago and we started working on fixing every issue we could that was on the list so that we would easily pass when the inspection day came.

[Marc Bowman]

A lot of our software users in the Gatlinburg area have reported that the Fire Marshall is stepping up and enforcing things that perhaps they didn't in the past. After the fire in 2016 damaged or destroyed more than 2,000 buildings, 16,000 acres, with 16 lives lost, I think they are trying to be better about enforcement. Unfortunately, I tend to agree that they really are not concerned with whether or not you have to cancel bookings.

[Josh Madigan]

Quote from @John Underwood:

Stupid question,  did you not see the published inspection list that showed you would need a sprinkler system?

I saw the list almost a year ago and we started working on fixing every issue we could that was on the list so that we would easily pass when the inspection day came.

 I did see it and scheduled the sprinkler installation but heard they are now requiring additional improvements that weren't originally discussed like multiple egresses, changes to pool room doors etc.  

[John Underwood]

Ahh, I can understand that.

[Chris Watson]

Quote from @Josh Madigan:

Quote from @John Underwood:

Stupid question,  did you not see the published inspection list that showed you would need a sprinkler system?

I saw the list almost a year ago and we started working on fixing every issue we could that was on the list so that we would easily pass when the inspection day came.

 I did see it and scheduled the sprinkler installation but heard they are now requiring additional improvements that weren't originally discussed like multiple egresses, changes to pool room doors etc.  

 The 12 max occupancy without a sprinkler system is due to a state law, so by law you are limited and it is out of the fire marshals hands.  You can continue to operate and if there is no fire and no decks collapse you are fine.  If something happens and someone is injured due to over occupancy you could open yourself to legal liability and you would have to check with your insurance policy to see if you are covered since you knowingly would be operating for more occupancy than permitted for the structure. I am not trying to be negative or a Karen, but being real so you can analyze all your options on what course of action you should take for your business and what risk level you are comfortable with.

[Leora Merrell]

Quote from @Kevin Luttrell:

John must have lucked out. I had a similar experience to you Josh and my management company said all of their other owners are experiencing the same. The fire inspectors couldn't care less about your bookings and are taking their jobs VERY seriously. 

Had my inspections done a month or two ago and they checked about a dozen items per property that had to be corrected and told us the properties were deemed "uninhabitable" until then and no one could stay in them. We cancelled our bookings for the next week while completing the work as quickly as possible, since as John mentioned they have the power to permanently pull your permit so you cannot rent at all. Once the work was completed we alerted the inspector and tried to get him back out ASAP to verify, but he wouldn't get back to us. They're extremely busy with all the inspections and permits they have to get done in the area. We did not continue to cancel our bookings after that - I decided that it was worth the risk since we did what was asked of us and wouldn't be fair for us to have to wait for him to have time to come back. 

So long story short I don't think it's likely they'll come back and check on your property to make sure you're not renting prior to sprinkler installation, but they can if they want to and if they find renters they can permanently pull your permit. Up to you on whether or not it's worth the risk. 

 This is crazy they haven't come back out. We finally got an email from the Fire Marshall last week asking to schedule and inspection (our first out of six we have in the area) and the google calendar showed about a dozen times available every day through December. It didn't seem busy to me at all. That said, we don't sleep over 12 people. Perhaps they are inspecting larger cabins first? 

[Mike H.]

Quote from @Marc Bowman:

A lot of our software users in the Gatlinburg area have reported that the Fire Marshall is stepping up and enforcing things that perhaps they didn't in the past. After the fire in 2016 damaged or destroyed more than 2,000 buildings, 16,000 acres, with 16 lives lost, I think they are trying to be better about enforcement. Unfortunately, I tend to agree that they really are not concerned with whether or not you have to cancel bookings.

 The funny thing about that is that the big gatlinburg fire didn't start in a cabin. It started in the forest preserve from two teenagers messing around.  Does the fire preserve have to have a sprinkler system put in anywhere? :-)

A sprinkler system in a cabin isn't going to do anything.  And while I've only been investing out there for the last couple of years, I have yet to hear of a story where people were killed because they got caught in a cabin that went up in smoke. 

Its yet another example of govt trying to butt its way into something because they think there's money for them to grab.  A sprinkler system isn't going to prevent a cabin from going up in flames if the trees around them are on fire. 

Being from illinois, I do get a kick at how much regulation goes on out there in tennessee - where people give me guff about how our local politicians here are so intrusive.  Its even worse in tennessee - by far.  People may act like they are for small govt out there,  but their actions are about as far from that as you can possibly get. 

[Chris Watson]

Quote from @Mike H.:

Quote from @Marc Bowman:

A lot of our software users in the Gatlinburg area have reported that the Fire Marshall is stepping up and enforcing things that perhaps they didn't in the past. After the fire in 2016 damaged or destroyed more than 2,000 buildings, 16,000 acres, with 16 lives lost, I think they are trying to be better about enforcement. Unfortunately, I tend to agree that they really are not concerned with whether or not you have to cancel bookings.

 The funny thing about that is that the big gatlinburg fire didn't start in a cabin. It started in the forest preserve from two teenagers messing around.  Does the fire preserve have to have a sprinkler system put in anywhere? :-)

A sprinkler system in a cabin isn't going to do anything.  And while I've only been investing out there for the last couple of years, I have yet to hear of a story where people were killed because they got caught in a cabin that went up in smoke. 

Its yet another example of govt trying to butt its way into something because they think there's money for them to grab.  A sprinkler system isn't going to prevent a cabin from going up in flames if the trees around them are on fire. 

Being from illinois, I do get a kick at how much regulation goes on out there in tennessee - where people give me guff about how our local politicians here are so intrusive.  Its even worse in tennessee - by far.  People may act like they are for small govt out there,  but their actions are about as far from that as you can possibly get. 

There have been several cabin fires where people died. This is the one that sparked Tennessee to really start to create legislation on it. 
https://fox59.com/news/officials-confirm-two-dead-in-tenness...
This is a state fire code on sleeping more than 12. Actually, since 2016 up till this year TN fire marshals office was doing all inspections of new builds in Sevier County which required fire suppression/sleep more than 12.  

[Mike H.]

Quote from @Chris Watson:

Quote from @Mike H.:

Quote from @Marc Bowman:

A lot of our software users in the Gatlinburg area have reported that the Fire Marshall is stepping up and enforcing things that perhaps they didn't in the past. After the fire in 2016 damaged or destroyed more than 2,000 buildings, 16,000 acres, with 16 lives lost, I think they are trying to be better about enforcement. Unfortunately, I tend to agree that they really are not concerned with whether or not you have to cancel bookings.

 The funny thing about that is that the big gatlinburg fire didn't start in a cabin. It started in the forest preserve from two teenagers messing around.  Does the fire preserve have to have a sprinkler system put in anywhere? :-)

A sprinkler system in a cabin isn't going to do anything.  And while I've only been investing out there for the last couple of years, I have yet to hear of a story where people were killed because they got caught in a cabin that went up in smoke. 

Its yet another example of govt trying to butt its way into something because they think there's money for them to grab.  A sprinkler system isn't going to prevent a cabin from going up in flames if the trees around them are on fire. 

Being from illinois, I do get a kick at how much regulation goes on out there in tennessee - where people give me guff about how our local politicians here are so intrusive.  Its even worse in tennessee - by far.  People may act like they are for small govt out there,  but their actions are about as far from that as you can possibly get. 

There have been several cabin fires where people died. This is the one that sparked Tennessee to really start to create legislation on it. 
https://fox59.com/news/officials-confirm-two-dead-in-tenness...
This is a state fire code on sleeping more than 12. Actually, since 2016 up till this year TN fire marshals office was doing all inspections of new builds in Sevier County which required fire suppression/sleep more than 12.  

I guess what I meant to say is that it isn't the cabins catching on fire that created the big fire. And why is it that every single home - whether its a rental cabin or primary residence - doesn't have to have a sprinkler system? 6 people aren't enough people to be worth saving? Only rental cabins catch on fire and not primary residences.

In all honesty, though, I would agree that something that size should be treated more as a commercial property any way and the sprinkler system makes sense to me. And yep, I was made aware a couple of years ago of that 12 person max and/or I think 4,000 sq ft limitation (or some size anyway) that requires a sprinkler system for all new construction.

I don't think they're that wrong for implementing the requirement.  But I do have an issue with asking some of these pre-existing cabin owners to have to retrofit their cabin with the system and expecting them to have it done in a year or something.  They should be given 2 to 3 years to do something like that given its harder to retrofit those in and its also much more costly to put in compared to new construction.

Again, they've been going for 30 or 40 years with nothing and now expect everyone to just jump.  The fire department should put them in for them if they think its so easy to get it done. 

I just don't like to see the government adding all the regulations and significant costs (those systems aren't cheap) as a knee jerk reaction to tragedies.  Here in illinois people die from fires in their homes every year.  They don't make us put in 20k sprinkler systems in our homes. 

I just don't see what the difference is between an owner occupant dying from a fire in their home and renter dying in a fire from a rental cabin that sleeps 12 or more. Other than the fact if they tried to make every owner of their own home put in a 10k to 20k sprinkler system, they'd all get voted out of office - every last one of them. So they pick on the landlords for everything because we don't have enough of us to vote them out.

[Chris Watson]

Quote from @Mike H.:

Quote from @Chris Watson:

Quote from @Mike H.:

Quote from @Marc Bowman:

A lot of our software users in the Gatlinburg area have reported that the Fire Marshall is stepping up and enforcing things that perhaps they didn't in the past. After the fire in 2016 damaged or destroyed more than 2,000 buildings, 16,000 acres, with 16 lives lost, I think they are trying to be better about enforcement. Unfortunately, I tend to agree that they really are not concerned with whether or not you have to cancel bookings.

 The funny thing about that is that the big gatlinburg fire didn't start in a cabin. It started in the forest preserve from two teenagers messing around.  Does the fire preserve have to have a sprinkler system put in anywhere? :-)

A sprinkler system in a cabin isn't going to do anything.  And while I've only been investing out there for the last couple of years, I have yet to hear of a story where people were killed because they got caught in a cabin that went up in smoke. 

Its yet another example of govt trying to butt its way into something because they think there's money for them to grab.  A sprinkler system isn't going to prevent a cabin from going up in flames if the trees around them are on fire. 

Being from illinois, I do get a kick at how much regulation goes on out there in tennessee - where people give me guff about how our local politicians here are so intrusive.  Its even worse in tennessee - by far.  People may act like they are for small govt out there,  but their actions are about as far from that as you can possibly get. 

There have been several cabin fires where people died. This is the one that sparked Tennessee to really start to create legislation on it. 
https://fox59.com/news/officials-confirm-two-dead-in-tenness...
This is a state fire code on sleeping more than 12. Actually, since 2016 up till this year TN fire marshals office was doing all inspections of new builds in Sevier County which required fire suppression/sleep more than 12.  

I guess what I meant to say is that it isn't the cabins catching on fire that created the big fire. And why is it that every single home - whether its a rental cabin or primary residence - doesn't have to have a sprinkler system? 6 people aren't enough people to be worth saving? Only rental cabins catch on fire and not primary residences.

In all honesty, though, I would agree that something that size should be treated more as a commercial property any way and the sprinkler system makes sense to me. And yep, I was made aware a couple of years ago of that 12 person max and/or I think 4,000 sq ft limitation (or some size anyway) that requires a sprinkler system for all new construction.

I don't think they're that wrong for implementing the requirement.  But I do have an issue with asking some of these pre-existing cabin owners to have to retrofit their cabin with the system and expecting them to have it done in a year or something.  They should be given 2 to 3 years to do something like that given its harder to retrofit those in and its also much more costly to put in compared to new construction.

Again, they've been going for 30 or 40 years with nothing and now expect everyone to just jump.  The fire department should put them in for them if they think its so easy to get it done. 

I just don't like to see the government adding all the regulations and significant costs (those systems aren't cheap) as a knee jerk reaction to tragedies.  Here in illinois people die from fires in their homes every year.  They don't make us put in 20k sprinkler systems in our homes. 

I just don't see what the difference is between an owner occupant dying from a fire in their home and renter dying in a fire from a rental cabin that sleeps 12 or more. Other than the fact if they tried to make every owner of their own home put in a 10k to 20k sprinkler system, they'd all get voted out of office - every last one of them. So they pick on the landlords for everything because we don't have enough of us to vote them out.

 I get it, but it is state law, not local law, and they are just now enforcing it across the board as they are required by law to do and they are not picking on people. Failure for the fire department to knowingly not enforce leaves the county liable if something happens.  Technically, those sleeping over 12 built after 2016 are putting themselves in a legally liable situation if something happens as insurance companies may not cover them. The standards have been out for about a year and most sprinkler installers are 3 to 6 months out.  Do I think the fire dept could have communicated more clearly upfront, maybe, but they did mail out to all registered owners the standards.  Now there was no mention of the engineered plans requirement for the 12+ requirement to my recollection, so I do call foul there.  As someone who has cabins that sleeps 20+ I have known the sprinkler requirement for at least a year. Now I have seen a situation where there was a pre-2016 build, but the previous owner pulled permit to install a pool and a new Certificate of Occupancy was issued after 2016.  How the law is written the owner has to abide by the code of the latest C/O.  This sucks and I understand the frustration of the new owner because they had no idea a new C/O was issued until the county sent them a notice.  The current owner has to drop down to 12 or less till they get the sprinkler system in and engineered plans submitted to the county.  Most of these 12+ cabins bring in $150K to $300K+ a year so while it sucks to shell out $20K to $35K it shouldn't hurt as bad as if it were the cabins bringing in $30K-$80K a year. Again this requirement directly impacts me.  One thing I did note is my insurance is $3K a year lower due to the monitored fire suppression system in these larger properties versus my smaller properties that sleep 12 or less built close to the same time.

As someone who has lived in Illinois twice, the politicians there don't care if people burn as long as they can tax and spend.  I believe they still hold the record of the most Governors who went to prison. The only place I see more cheating is in the recruiting of SEC football players (SEC fan here).