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Updated over 4 years ago, 05/31/2020
Tenant removing upgrades They did
Hi, have my own rental properties but my mother in law is the tennant in this case. She decided to shut up shop on her preschool and move into her home to downsize. She rented for many years and was responsible for turning the place into a daycare. Being polish she had all her contractors do work and have the place running. Owner didn’t pay for any of it but allowed it. She stayed 13 years. She even converted uninhabitable rooms into rooms and even added children’s toilets and a whole new bathroom at that. Changed the kitchen to commercial grade. Installed cubbies.
At the time of leaving, the owners daughter, as the owner died, marketed it as a preschool. On the way out we removed most of the commercial stuff, including sink, all the wall cubbies, painted over the murals that were in there and are planning on removing the children’s toilets too. Essentially making it uninhabitable.
Can the owner do anything about this as the place is still significantly upgraded from when they had it?
Also if her business is closing and turning into a home day care and it was always in an llc where she was an employee and paid by the business could she even be liable if that was a possibility.
When we left the floors were damaged too. Whoops... there was children carpet to play on and a leak in the window there. So months of the carpet getting a little moist with sunlight on it drying it up it was stuck to ground. Hence when pulling carpet up, tile came up to.
Throughout the time there she saved numerous receipts and had to fix problems on her own as well.
i think overall she was taken advantage of being a foreigner in this country but she made a great living for 13 years and funded 3 big ten universities with it.
Any thoughts appreciated
Nothing you say is going to justify what you did. You deliberately vandalized and destroyed the owner's property. Honestly, I don't think you're going to have to worry about the civil lawsuit - what you have described has risen to the level of criminal vandalism. The owner is going to get her money because you're going to be paying her back as part of the criminal penalty. We had a tenant once who deliberately vandalized a property. He now has a criminal record, and he was paying us back for YEARS through the courts - we never had to sue for a penny, because the courts collected it all for us. And don't you realize that you have left a discoverable trail of evidence right here on this thread? You think you're the only person in real estate who knows about this website?
Your only hope is that the heir isn't savvy enough, or motivated enough to go after you and your mother in law for your criminal actions. Yes, you'd best consult a lawyer other than the family lawyer, and pronto. And if I were you, I'd be talking to two of them - a commercial real estate lawyer, and a criminal lawyer. You're probably going to need them both.
Originally posted by @EJ K.:
She has people buying some of the items she’s removing. The rest is an FU to landlord. She was there 13 years and once covid hit was harassed about payment.
It might be easier to actually just say "F U" to the landlord and move on. You're at the stage where you'll likely need to hire lawyers (wasting their time and your money) over this... just to spite a dead person? Yikes.
Originally posted by @EJ K.:
Gotcha. Thank you. That was my interpretation. There was no infrastructure for a day care. One bathroom. She added multiple bathrooms fit for little people. There was no kitchen so she took back all that was hers. The painting was probably the only overboard part. The jungle gym was hers and looks like it did prior to her renting now. Security wasn’t there before and isn’t now. Cabinets and wall mounts/shelves aren’t there as they were before. Water fountain isn’t there as it was before. It was a dump, we left it better than it was.
this was probably the wrong forum to post on but I wanted opposition views and I sure got them. I don’t think a lot of the situation is easily translatable. The floor damage was due to her not fixing leaks and it caused the carpet to pull up the floor when I pulled it up. By carpet I mean child rug with car lanes on it. The only permanent things we took, which weren’t there before anyway was water fountains, industrial sink ( was no kitchen before), and painting over a mural which I doubt she knows was there as she’s managing from afar.
The appliances are ours and not permanent. We left the toilets. Figured it’s doubtful another daycare goes in there now anyway.
The jungle gym wasn’t cemented in. Figured that was fair pickings too.
She needed to paint the place anyway. It was run down and never maintained except by renter....
they had to paint immediately upon leasing so it wouldn’t make sense to return something prestine that was garbage before.
Did your MIL have an agency agreement between her company and the landlord allowing her to make improvements to the place?
Did your MIL give written notice to the landlord regarding the repairs she had to make, plus allow the landlord the opportunity to fix any problems, or did she just do them without notifying the landlord?
As others have suggested, refer back to your lease regarding how to handle any improvements.
You need to speak with a lawyer about this before you do anything vindictive. Selling off used toilets comes off as particularly petty and if this goes to litigation a judge might not side with you.
Hmmm... lots of interesting things here. Especially the self-incrimination... and saying you did most of it as an F U to the landlord. That's priceless. Honestly, I don't even want to be helpful.
Sounds like it was a commercial property, which likely had a Triple-Net Lease... Just so you know, most NNN leases specify that the tenant is responsible for maintenance. If that's the case and your MIL had a NNN lease, then all your gripes about the landlord being negligent now turn into more evidence that the tenant was negligent.
Where is this landlord? i would love to send these messages to them...
I’ve seen so many threads on here say to walk away and let things ride. I wanted to play devils advocate as this has been an on going issue. We are nearing an agreement. My arguments were actually what was posed against us in an argument. Wasn’t necessarily Trolling but just really wanted A clear opinion and to push the right way.
often times you see thread sort of split. Wanted full opinions.
Thanks for many thought out answers
Is there any chance that your mother in-law had any pictures of the place prior to her improvements? In his/her (landlords) absence, I would think that the lease would be the document that would prevail. You should consult an attorney that specializes in contracts.
I think that it would be worth the money that you may have to spend at this point.
Hmmmm. Why have you changed your location from Lockport IL to Quad Cities Iowa? Afraid that someone is already scanning the listings of daycares for sale or rent in that area? If there are pictures up on the listing with the murals, you are SO......
@EJ K. Do you have records of her requesting maintenance and the landlord refusing to do it? Therefore requiring her to do the maintenance and she has the receipts. That would go in her favor.
@EJ K. You are right it’s typically not going to get you a good reaction when you tell a bunch of landlords you did something to F your landlord. I understand you being upset, but many of us are trying to hang on to properties with non paying tenant and may not be that sympathetic. I hope it all works out for all, and be sure you have that paper trail of her asking for fixes, and not getting them.
@EJ K. interesting dilemma. You have a difference between residential and commercial leases. I am assuming this is residential. First off if you put up bookshelves/cubbies, paint murals, or install a different sink you can return it to how you found it. If you brought in playground equipment I would expect a tenant to remove it. There is no problem doing that if the lease is absent or doesn't say otherwise. You are obliged to return it in good condition. As for fixtures, like the childrens toilet that is permanently attached to the property, you may have a problem there, that said I would negotiate with the landlord if he wants those removed. If he wants it as a single family dwelling that may be desirable.
What are you talking about, "playing Devil's advocate"? You describe how you helped your MIL to vengefully destroy the owner's property, because you're angry that she asked for her rent to be paid. Then you say you're just kidding? Tell you what, why not give us the address of the property and the contact info for the owner. She can read the thread, view her destroyed property, and she can decide whether you're "just kidding".
And look, you just changed your moniker, too! Too bad you can't go back and change the posts - a good sleuth could probably figure out the location from the info you've already given.