How dirty will you let your Tenant be?

[Nathan Gesner]

We all have different cleaning standards, but some people are just filthy! 

Below are images from an actual apartment that's been occupied by the same tenant for almost 30 years. He pays 15% below market rate but has never been late once. The yellow glow is from cigarettes, not my lack of white balance. The last picture shows how even the items stored next to his bed are covered in thick dust.

Would you allow him to stay? Would you force him to clean it up? Would you kick him out and renovate?

[Nathan Gesner]

Originally posted by @Ryan Proffit:

I have one like that.  Not quite as bad.  Their kid also lives in another unit and he is dirty too.  Both are 30% below market and chronic complainers(want us to fix things that they damaged).  I am going to bump their kids rent, then I am going to tell them to vacate and turn the unit.

Yes, if it's that far below market, it's worth getting rid of them.

[Ryan Proffit]

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

Originally posted by @Ryan Proffit:

I have one like that.  Not quite as bad.  Their kid also lives in another unit and he is dirty too.  Both are 30% below market and chronic complainers(want us to fix things that they damaged).  I am going to bump their kids rent, then I am going to tell them to vacate and turn the unit.

Yes, if it's that far below market, it's worth getting rid of them.

 It's an 8 unit, and they have had bed bugs before, and would throw their old furniture in the empty lot and burn it.  It's hard not to vomit from the smell when walking inside.  These apartments are easily some of the nicest in the small town it's in, but it looked like d class when we bought it.  Once them and their son move, we will have a much better tenant class.  I considered to just keep bumping their rent. but I know for a fact they can't afford it.  Then we would be dealing with them being late, calling and giving us a sob story every other other day.

[Nadiyah M.]

@Nathan G. I’d let him stay since he reports maintainence issues. However, I’d continue this way knowing when he moves, the place will be completely cleaned and rehabbed.

[Nathan Gesner]

I would definitely get rid of them. Bed bugs can move into other units. Even if they could afford a large increase, I wouldn't keep anyone that brings in bed bugs or burns furniture in a vacant lot.

[Donald Thomas]

@Nathan G. I say the damage is already done, let it ride! He pays on time and that’s valuable. Also it appears he don’t bug you about repairs.

After you kick him out if he needs a place to rent, send him my way 🤣

[Nathan Gesner]

Originally posted by @Donald Thomas:

@Nathan G. I say the damage is already done, let it ride! He pays on time and that’s valuable. Also it appears he don’t bug you about repairs.

After you kick him out if he needs a place to rent, send him my way 🤣

I'm pretty sure he'll leave my place in a body bag. He has no family and basically stays shut in except to pay bills or grocery shop. The good news: he's so timely with his payments that I'll know something is wrong as soon as his rent is late.

[Nancy P.]

Nathan:

What do you think rehab costs will be when the time comes?  We bought a smoke-encrusted condo and I spent over 150 hours personally washing walls, doors, ceilings. baseboards, everything.  THEN painted with Kilz and good paint.  Changed the carpet.  Changed the countertops.  Completely redid all three bathrooms. (MBR was incredible,  guy apparently smoked on the toilet. The white blind in there was black.  Moved out because he had lung cancer,  went to hospice.)   Painted kitchen cabinets. Cleaned the vents. New blinds throughout.   And still about 1/2 of people looking at it could still faintly smell smoke.  17 showings the first day on the market when we bought it,  we were the only ones making an offer,  we lowballed, they took it,  we thought we were so smart.  Never again will I make an offer on a place like that.  My eyes burned for three months.

[Nathan Gesner]

Originally posted by @Nancy P.:

Nathan:

What do you think rehab costs will be when the time comes?  We bought a smoke-encrusted condo and I spent over 150 hours personally washing walls, doors, ceilings. baseboards, everything.  THEN painted with Kilz and good paint.  Changed the carpet.  Changed the countertops.  Completely redid all three bathrooms. (MBR was incredible,  guy apparently smoked on the toilet. The white blind in there was black.  Moved out because he had lung cancer,  went to hospice.)   Painted kitchen cabinets. Cleaned the vents. New blinds throughout.   And still about 1/2 of people looking at it could still faintly smell smoke.  17 showings the first day on the market when we bought it,  we were the only ones making an offer,  we lowballed, they took it,  we thought we were so smart.  Never again will I make an offer on a place like that.  My eyes burned for three months.

This one will be a gut job. The kitchen needs to be renovated anyway. It hasn't been painted since he moved in, flooring and fixtures are from the 70s. I will tear everything out and make it new, top to bottom. It also needs new windows. I estimate it can be done for around $15,000.

I bought an apartment complex a couple years ago and one of the units had a smoker living in it for over 30 years. My process:

• Pulled all the flooring out
• Steam washed the walls, windows, cabinets
• Followed up with hand-washing using a vinegar mix
• Painted with an oil-based Kilz primer
• Painted
• Put in new flooring

It's been two years and it still smells like fresh paint and carpet. Worked great!

[Sylvia B.]

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

Originally posted by @Tina Russell:

@James Wise all I see is a greedy owner. It is sad to NOT check on your property. This is not only neglect by the tenant but also the owner who seems to only worry about the "bottom line" (as you said). My properties are well kept with annual inspections and courtesy drive bys. The city Code Enforcement and Health Department should have been involved because of safety issues! Yes I would first jump to conclusion that the owner failed their responsibility to their tenant(s) and was only concerned about the rent history of "on time paments." I guess this is a case of pay now or pay later and the owner chose to pay later and dearly!! Again, shame on the greedy owner!!

How do you know this has anything to do with the owner or greed? How do you know they didn't check on the property? 

I had a tenant that was good for 18 months. I inspected her house in February 2018 and it was in excellent shape. Three months later it was destroyed with almost $20,000 in damages. It is possible for things to go bad quickly.

 I had a similar experience. Tenant good for 3 years. She had surgery and it triggered some kind of mental problem. She had 3 kids under 8 years old and basically just let them do whatever they wanted. Inspected in October, and 3 months later much of the house was destroyed. Her mother took charge, got her moved out and got her some help.

[Jon Moore]

@Nathan G. Short answer: let him stay, depending on the state of the rental market in your area - that's what I would do.

I never aspire to be a slumlord but have become one at times over the years due to my tenants cleaning habits. When that happens, unless the rental market is hot and you know you can get significantly more rent after a rehab, I try to keep them in as long as possible in order to offset the cleaning costs I'll incur when they move out. Figure how many thousands of dollars you've collected in rent over the years and weigh that against the cleaning costs and the reliability of the tenant when it comes to paying on time.

In a hot market like where I live now, especially when good deals are very hard to find, I would absolutely focus my efforts on fixing up a property like that, raising rent, and getting cleaner tenants.

[Jonathan W.]

@Nathan G. I would not **** there for less then a grand. I think North Korea uses footage like this as propaganda against the West. I’m pretty sure they were planning to film Requiem for a Dream 2 there, but discovered bats from Wuhan in the cabinets.

[Nathan Gesner]

Originally posted by @Jonathan W.:

@Nathan G. I would not **** there for less then a grand. I think North Korea uses footage like this as propaganda against the West. I’m pretty sure they were planning to film Requiem for a Dream 2 there, but discovered bats from Wuhan in the cabinets.

[Meir Greenblatt]

@Nathan G.

Contact a local organization that helps People like that, even though he may not need charity maybe sending someone there to clean once a month can make a difference.

[Nancy P.]

Nathan:

If I ever had a smoker again I'd hire the ozone machine, I think. I washed with vinegar or TSP until the water ran clear. It just took about 8-30 passes to get to that point. We did replace (very newish) carpeting, but the main floor was hardwood and tile. A year after tenants moved in we decided to do the windows, when we did that the rest of the smell went away. Must have been more odor in the nooks and crannies of the windows (with those pane bar things) than I realized. Or just time.

[Sylvia B.]

I understand this is a multi, but I only buy SFRs, so from my perspective, I would have concerns about the exterior. My tenants are responsible for yard maintenance, and I would expect him to be as slovenly on the outside as the inside. That would be a problem.

But as long as the grass is cut, trash is put out, and junk doesn't pile up outside, I agree with the majority - let him stew in his juices.

[Jill F.]

@Nathan Gesner I said I make him pay for cleaning but for that kind of tenant, that really means, I'll tell him it must be done and he has to pay me back, but at $20/month or what I think he can afford-- but I'll pick the cleaner and send them out and pay them. A refusal would mean him telling me he's not going to let them in or balking at paying the $20/month.

[JD Martin]

Originally posted by @Joe P.:

Oh man, this thread. Personally, I am losing my f^*(ing mind looking at these pictures. But you can't control how people live.

This has ignited a question in me for @James Wise @Nathan Gesner @JD Martin - do you guys perform (or do you have a PM) perform inspections? If so, what is their frequency, what are they looking for, and do you have any processes for curing/quitting anything found?

 We do informal ones whenever we need to go to the unit for some reason, or if a tradesman tells us that something is amiss in one of our units. 

When I do one I look for:

1. Clean HVAC filter.

2. Leaks or damage to pipes under sinks.

3. Condition of the floors.

4. Evidence of smoking.

5. Evidence of pests or vermin.

6. General cleanliness in terms of things that will attract pests - empty food containers, etc.

7. Grass being cut; animal waste picked up.

Pretty much all of that can be accomplished in a couple of minutes, maximum. Not including time to get there, but we will combine it with another reason for being there so we don't make unnecessary trips.

[Ryan Proffit]

Originally posted by @Jill F.:

@Nathan Gesner I said I make him pay for cleaning but for that kind of tenant, that really means, I'll tell him it must be done and he has to pay me back, but at $20/month or what I think he can afford-- but I'll pick the cleaner and send them out and pay them. A refusal would mean him telling me he's not going to let them in or balking at paying the $20/month.

You have some creative solutions.  Keep them coming.

[Pete Winslow]

The math says to let him stay.  As long as the damage is strictly cosmetic and nothing structural/burn damage I say continue to raise the rent 5% per year.  The likelihood of him moving out at this point seems to be slim to none.  The value of a tenant who always pays on time is much more than how his unit looks.  Just make sure the next tenant never lays eyes on these pictures!

[Karen O.]

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

Originally posted by @Donald Thomas:

@Nathan G. I say the damage is already done, let it ride! He pays on time and that’s valuable. Also it appears he don’t bug you about repairs.

After you kick him out if he needs a place to rent, send him my way 🤣

I'm pretty sure he'll leave my place in a body bag. He has no family and basically stays shut in except to pay bills or grocery shop. The good news: he's so timely with his payments that I'll know something is wrong as soon as his rent is late.

That can be a long time after a problem. Does he get Meals on Wheels? If so, ask if he'll give them your name as an emergency contact. That way, you have at most a 3 day window with no contact (friday to monday); if he doesn't answer the door, they will call the emergency contact to let them know.

[Phil Wells]

He seems like a dependable guy in terms of his payment history and is probably attached to the neighborhood and the house. I'd personally try to incentivize him to clean the property before applying pressure in terms of an eviction - carrot before the stick approach. You could also leverage the potential health risks associated with a dirty unit, vermin, fire hazards, etc, etc.

Having said that I'm sorry to see your property being run down like this, I hope you find a solution that works for both parties.

[Sami Gren]

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

Originally posted by @Tina Russell:

@James Wise all I see is a greedy owner. It is sad to NOT check on your property. This is not only neglect by the tenant but also the owner who seems to only worry about the "bottom line" (as you said). My properties are well kept with annual inspections and courtesy drive bys. The city Code Enforcement and Health Department should have been involved because of safety issues! Yes I would first jump to conclusion that the owner failed their responsibility to their tenant(s) and was only concerned about the rent history of "on time paments." I guess this is a case of pay now or pay later and the owner chose to pay later and dearly!! Again, shame on the greedy owner!!

How do you know this has anything to do with the owner or greed? How do you know they didn't check on the property? 

I had a tenant that was good for 18 months. I inspected her house in February 2018 and it was in excellent shape. Three months later it was destroyed with almost $20,000 in damages. It is possible for things to go bad quickly.

just curious.

hohow dogs he destroy $20,000 in just 3 months?

[Nathan Gesner]

Originally posted by @Karen O.:

To my knowledge, he is self-sufficient and doesn't have any visitors.

[Nathan Gesner]

Originally posted by @Sami Gren:

Drugs.

[Jacob Ansbacher]

I have potential tenants that are in recovery for drug and alcohol use.  They seem good, have good credit, have jobs and no history of eviction.

BP do you have any recommendations?  Any experience?  And how should i accommodate their recovery (I currently live in the upstairs unit)

Thanks