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Updated almost 4 years ago, 02/03/2021
Rochester NY & Snow Removal
So Rochester, NY colleagues with property within the city . . . what are your thoughts on the recent news that the Mayor expectes owners/landlords the responsibility party for removing snow on sidewalks, regardless of what the lease states re sidewalks.
I know it's similar to the issue of high grass, and I"m sure the city is quick to target the owners (i.e. tax payer) because it's simple for them to levy fines and add it to the property tax, and then leave it to the owners to take the issue up with the tenants.
What's your plan of action (if any) as a result of this news?
I was wondering the same thing. Would be nice to know if there are legal and ethical ways to shift the responsibility to the tenant. Could you include a clause in the lease that charges a fee if they fail to clear the walks? I know the city would still bill you (the landlord), but then maybe you could pass it on to the tenant?
I attended the City Council meeting and actually spoke on behalf of investors and myself. I have to say I was a bit disappointed that more investors didn't show up to speak. It was obvious from those that did speak that the law is incredibly vague and unrealistic. I honestly cannot believe that such a law would actually pass and was shocked when they approved it. Fines will just start flowing if they actually start enforcing these "rules". And maybe that's the point...
I have alerted all of my tenants to this new law and explained to them that their lease states they are responsible for the sidewalks and they must take care of that now. I recommended our snow plow guy and said they were welcome to call him and he'd do it for a small fee if they didn't want to worry about it, but if I get fined, that fine will be passed along to them. However, i have one duplex in particular that I recently bought and I cannot even get the tenants to pay the rent on time, and one of the tenants is elderly and cannot walk without assistance. She is not capable of clearing the sidewalk herself, so what am I supposed to do now? I guess I have to suck it up and pay for that house?? We manage all of our own properties, but I certainly cannot get to it within the time frames required.
Honestly, I am so fed up right now. Our taxes clearly charge us $43/property to clear the sidewalks, but that's only for 4" and above. In the meeting, I told the council that if they wanted me to be responsible for this, my guy would clear any ice or snow for $40 for the season. Why don't they stop taxing me for something they don't actually take care of properly and then I'll do it and it won't actually cost me anymore and the problem will actually be solved. Apparently they don't want to be reasonable... And with the new tax assessments going into affect, i don't even know if we will be making any profits this year at all...I'm very scared for those letters to arrive. One friend of mine owns several multis on Park Ave and her taxes went up $250/mo!!
It's time we started fighting back on this stuff. It's getting out of control.
@Shannon Sadik Shannon, I saw that you were quoted in one of the media articles about this issue, and I recognized your name from the forums here, which is why I posted this topic for discussion. Reasonable-ness and City of Rochester are not two things that go together. My brother is a city firefighter, and he's downright disgusted with the way the city operates, and the trends he's seeing city wide. I don't want to get into politics, but it's beginning to not look good very good to be a landlord in the city.
I have similar issues in my duplex. The two tenants like to point fingers at eachother when it comes to who should be responsible for snow and grass. Neither do it, and both claim to be incapable of cutting the grass and/or shoveling snow. I added a lease clause this year - in addition to the clause on snow/lawn care being there responsibility - that if they don't do it, and it gets to a point where I have to do it, or have someone do it, then the charge back to them will be $35 for snow and $20 for loan to both tenants! If I get fined, I will simply pass that charge along . . . as well as any impact from the tax increase.
I'm happy to join up as a coalition of city landlords to try to take the city on, but I have a feeling the current city administration won't care much for listening.
I'm a local landlord and I'm not very happy with how the city is running things with these issues that concern landlords. They should be as we are the ones making the impact in the community and paying the taxes they should want to work with us for the better of the city instead it's just a way to collect more money out of landlords.
@David Stott Yeah handling lawn and snow removal duties with duplexes is kind of tricky. At one property I made an agreement with one of the tenants to give him a slight break on rent (i.e. I didn't raise rent that year) if he would take care of the lawn. He has been super good about it. At that property there isn't a shared driveway so the tenant with the driveway has snow removal responsibility.
At other duplexes I handle both the lawn and snow removal. I just don't trust most tenants to get it done. Especially if there is a shared driveway. Wherever there is shared space, I feel its the landlord's duty to maintain.
@Mark W. Yup, it's a shared driveway situation with a single lane access that opens to a double sized, and as you can imagine, I've had tons of issues over the years where tenants/guests block the other in, hits on the house, parking on grass, etc etc. The issues I face with my duplex far outnumber the SFRs homes i have, mainly as a result of tenant vs tenant over all the shared elements. I think I ultimately may jack up the rent and include these services in the lease.
@David Stott I'd rather they just increased our taxes. This is going to be a coordination nightmare. Can you imagine, countless contractors doing countless individual houses. It is inefficient and I'm sure won't get done on time all the time even with someone contracted to do it. It would be so much easier for the city to do it or subcontract out entire neighborhoods.
I will just have to hire it out and see if I can pass the cost along.
@Shannon Sadik thanks for going to the meeting. I just didn't have time to go. Plus could they have picked a busier time of the year to hold it? You have a guy that'll do it for $40? I'll contact you for info.
Ugh!
It's disappointing that the law is hard to comply with (even for owner-occupants—what if it snows while you're at work, or what if you're too old or disabled to shovel?!). That said, I understand the rationale for wanting to keep the sidewalks clear to help people with disabilities have better access. This law was enacted in partnership with the Center for Disability Rights, and for all we know, they may have threatened legal action against the city.
If we're going to fight the law, I don't think we should jump to conclusions and call it a revenue-grab; if the fines were too low, people wouldn't comply, and the law wouldn't serve its purpose. There also seems no better way to *not* get changes made than to have a bunch of "greedy landlords" (that's what it would look like to the public) complaining about cost.
Instead, I think we should focus on the actual challenges in maintaining compliance. After all, cleared sidewalks are a benefit to the public and help make city life more enjoyable. That is *good* for both renters and for landlords.
I agree with your comments @Bryan W. and my comments to the city council spoke to the vagueness and unrealisticness of the law. I was simply asking for a definition for what is considered "free and clear of snow and ice". My guy can clear the snow but if it snows right after, then what? And after the city plows, that ice is packed solid for many inches. It didn't thaw til spring in our neighborhood. Is a tiny bit of ice going to get a fine? Where is the line because it's constantly snowing here and as one guy mentioned at the meeting, to follow this law to the letter would be a 24 hour job.
Also @Larry Turowski, respectfully that is the problem. To just say "just raise my taxes so I don't have to deal with it" isn't a good solution. And too many people accept that instead of forcing the city to FIGURE IT OUT. Raising taxes should NEVER be an option here. Their focus should be lowering taxes as much as possible. But the crazy thing is, they could take care of this issue for what we are already paying them. Most contractors remove snow at 2" and above. Why is the city only responsible for 4? Put out an RFP and find someone to do it all for the same price as what we pay now. In fact, I'm sure there are only too many vendors who'd be willing to do it for less! It isn't that complicated.
@Mark W., I usually follow what you are saying. I have several duplexes and do take care of the lawn and snow plow the driveways because I don't expect them to do it either but one doesn't have a driveway and another the tenants don't have cars, and it's in a lower end area so snow plowing wasn't included in the budget or the lease. They were told to take care of the sidewalks themselves. I think it's a bit unfair to implement this law mid-winter without any notice or time to plan. For example, most plowers are booked up by this time of year.
But even personally, I live in one of my duplexes. The law states that if it snows after 8am then the snow and ice must be clear by 8pm. I work from 8-5 so basically if I meet a friend for hh after work or go to work on another house or even run errands, well I guess I can forget that now. Now my life is run by the snow and I must rush home to take care of that. And if it snows overnight, well I guess I have to wake up early every morning, just in case, to see if it snowed because I now have to clear it before I leave for work. See, they think we are greedy landlords but that's really not it at all.
wow, I feel bad for you guys! I am in Northern Wisconsin. We get our fair share of snow, but we don't have to deal with the 'if it snows at this time you X amount of time to clear it'.
what a nightmare!
We do pay for someone to plow our apartment buildings and to shovel. At one of our buildings, a tenant does the sidewalks and he does a good job and is fair. But we do not incur any fines from the city if we don't.
Sorry guys!
I am not concerned. There would be an uprising.
Aww glad to see so many Rochester investors! I have 7 multi-families in the city.
