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Updated about 3 years ago, 09/30/2021
COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
@Jim K. You miss the point completely. The argument isn’t whether we should be social distancing or not, I am also “ all about social distancing.” But I am highly against government forcing liberty infringing orders on its people. To conclude, yeah Ben May have been all about social distancing, but I can assure you he would not have been all about government infringing on the liberties in the name of temporary safety. You’re missing the point completely.
@Danielle N. And that’s well within your rights - go for it.
@Sylvia B., she manages a hospital in the Seattle area, I didn’t ask every detail...I would assume she knew what she was talking about.
@Dylan Vargas thank you for the note and the support. People tend to be illogical and unreasonable in times of stress... We’ll keep pushing the conversation forward.
@Bryan Beal
I’m honestly not on one side or another. I agree it’s a challenging situation w no right answer and a lot of confusion.......one question I had was:
And disobeying state mandates and/or federal orders for stay-at-home orders is also not ilegal (ie against the law that those people were out in power by us to make those calls and pass those laws)?
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
Originally posted by @Tanner Johnson:
@Jim K. You miss the point completely. The argument isn’t whether we should be social distancing or not, I am also “ all about social distancing.” But I am highly against government forcing liberty infringing orders on its people. To conclude, yeah Ben May have been all about social distancing, but I can assure you he would not have been all about government infringing on the liberties in the name of temporary safety. You’re missing the point completely.
Old Ben's DEAD. Just like all of us are going to be, sooner or later. I'd prefer it to be later.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me address these one at a time -
@John Collins - I think you're missing the point. No one is arguing that the health care system is overburdened. If you choose to quarantine yourself so you don't contract this virus, that's perfectly fine. You stay inside, away from the world around you and you stay safe and cozy in your home. No problem with that at all. But if myself or anyone else is willing to carry the risk and go about our daily lives (and be surrounded by others that are willing to carry that same risk), why do you have a problem with that?
You talk about workers being "disproportionately affected" by this. And yes, that's exactly my point. Do you think that they don't also want to get back to work? If someone is willing to carry the risk, they should be allowed to go back to work. If they're not, they won't be forced to and they can stay home and stay safe. And I never came close to implying we shouldn't take care of the critically ill - don't put words in my mouth and get off your soap box. Rah rah.
@Scott Passman - At a certain point the damage done by shutting down the country is greater than the treatment itself. A large number of people who are taking these tests and burdening the health care system are not sick and not showing any symptoms. If only those who needed those tests and care got those tests and care, we'd be in a much better situation.
And same point as above - if someone is at risk and they want to stay at home, they can stay at home and quarantine to protect themselves. If others want to get back to real life, and we all agree to the risks involved, we can do that without impacting those who don't.
@Scott Wolf - You clearly didn't read my entire post. Drunk driving is both irresponsible and ILLEGAL. I specifically say "within the confines of the law" which obviously went unnoticed. And yes, everything has intended and unintended consequences - but if we allow those to quarantine who want to quarantine and those who want to get back to work get back to you, it's a win/win. Do you disagree?
@Bryan Beal Y'all got a good point.
They are talking about Covid-19 because they don't want to face the real issues.
More people die of more than a dozen other diseases every day, not counting obesity, not counting car accidents, not counting accidental deaths and drowning, Yes, there are more drowning deaths! You can't win a emotional fight (Covid-19 and sheer unfounded terror) with facts.
Facts don't matter to them. They've become the "Land of the Enslaved and the Home of the Terrified".
When you look at the Facts, the whole world looks a lot rosier.
I'm in a buyin' mode because they're in a "Scared Sellin' Mode. Don't Wake them up (tho' I don't think you can anyway), cause the deals are getting better and I'm swooping them up. None are so deaf as those who will not hear.
Keep up the Spirit bro' there is a future to plan for.
Peter Johnson, that's a ridiculously outdated graphic there. The US ALONE lost over 4500 people yesterday. Beating tuberculosis handily. Not to mention how silly it is to compare COVID-19 to the others that aren't nearly as communicable. So much misunderstanding here. I wish statistics and logic were required to graduate high school.
Then...
OP worries about "our ability to grow wealth through REI." Man, I can only pray for your heart to be softened. Worried about your money when lives are at stake. You don't seem to understand that just having the old folks stay home will not solve the problem. Despite two pages plus of people trying to explain it to you.
Also, did you study history? Have you ever researched the INCREDIBLE financial devastation caused by two World Wars? Yet, here I sit, the child of a man who stormed Omaha Beach on D-Day, living in wealth. I just returned from 3 years of living in Germany, where an even greater percentage of the population has a decent standard of living than the US---and that country was DESTROYED by the war. (Hell, in the three years we were there, 17 bombs were found in my city. WWII bombs still are unearthed seventy years later!). It will probably be an incredible financial devastation. But we will rise up again from that.
Lastly, since you also seem to not understand civics, a brief article explaining how your "rights" are not exactly the same as your internalized idea of what American stands for. https://www.politico.com/news/...
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me address these one at a time -
@John Collins - I think you're missing the point. No one is arguing that the health care system is overburdened. If you choose to quarantine yourself so you don't contract this virus, that's perfectly fine. You stay inside, away from the world around you and you stay safe and cozy in your home. No problem with that at all. But if myself or anyone else is willing to carry the risk and go about our daily lives (and be surrounded by others that are willing to carry that same risk), why do you have a problem with that?
You talk about workers being "disproportionately affected" by this. And yes, that's exactly my point. Do you think that they don't also want to get back to work? If someone is willing to carry the risk, they should be allowed to go back to work. If they're not, they won't be forced to and they can stay home and stay safe. And I never came close to implying we shouldn't take care of the critically ill - don't put words in my mouth and get off your soap box. Rah rah.
@Scott Passman - At a certain point the damage done by shutting down the country is greater than the treatment itself. A large number of people who are taking these tests and burdening the health care system are not sick and not showing any symptoms. If only those who needed those tests and care got those tests and care, we'd be in a much better situation.
And same point as above - if someone is at risk and they want to stay at home, they can stay at home and quarantine to protect themselves. If others want to get back to real life, and we all agree to the risks involved, we can do that without impacting those who don't.
@Scott Wolf - You clearly didn't read my entire post. Drunk driving is both irresponsible and ILLEGAL. I specifically say "within the confines of the law" which obviously went unnoticed. And yes, everything has intended and unintended consequences - but if we allow those to quarantine who want to quarantine and those who want to get back to work get back to you, it's a win/win. Do you disagree?
@Bryan Beal Y'all got a good point.
They are talking about Covid-19 because they don't want to face the real issues.
More people die of more than a dozen other diseases every day, not counting obesity, not counting car accidents, not counting accidental deaths and drowning, Yes, there are more drowning deaths! You can't win a emotional fight (Covid-19 and sheer unfounded terror) with facts.
Facts don't matter to them. They've become the "Land of the Enslaved and the Home of the Terrified".
When you look at the Facts, the whole world looks a lot rosier.
I'm in a buyin' mode because they're in a "Scared Sellin' Mode. Don't Wake them up (tho' I don't think you can anyway), cause the deals are getting better and I'm swooping them up. None are so deaf as those who will not hear.
Keep up the Spirit bro' there is a future to plan for.
living under a rock?
Or own a time machine?
Your FACTS are WRONG!
10k + internationally april 15
i'm so frustrated that we as a country, a people, the greatest country in the world just cannot get the SIMPLE, not rocket science FACT that the best, easiest, fastest, least difficult way to end the crisis sooner, faster, with less economic impact is
#1 Testing - targeted sick with symptoms
#2 Testing - screening (asymptomatic)
#3 Testing - antibody testing for immunity and prior exposure
We just spent $2.2 Trillion dollars on sending checks to giant corporations, and more corporations, then a pittance to small business, and small but significant amount to regular Americans.
But why not spend $20 billion testing - as soon as we found out in Jan/Feb. Trump and the like love to quote - we have tested more than anyone else. - that matters little. 3.5 million tests is a drop in the bucket. We should be testing like 100 million or more. Why do you think we have shelter in place??
If you don't want to continue the "shelter at home" policies - you have to understand - the ONLY. I repeat the ONLY reason why we have to do this is because we don't have enough tests.
Here is an example:
1st case in Jan/2020 of positive covid patient in the USA. You trace all that person's contacts and test all of them. You then screen people in the vicinity. 2 week shelter in place. Again, the combination of shelter in place and vast testing would quickly identify the people who need to either stay at home or be isolated while preventing the spread.
Why do you think places like S. Korea, Taiwan, Japan all those places did well?
Actually it's not just testing. It's coordinated whole country effort to practice social distancing early, masks, sacrifice of one's "freedoms" for benefit of the society and completely following the rules as a nation.
So in America we love our freedoms and individualism. So we need testing since we didn't and still dont have enough masks to do physical barrier protections.
When people say, why are healthy people staying at home?? They have no clue about the nature of this disease and how it spreads. Asymptomatic people, people with mild symptoms, nonspecific symptoms (I have a cough for several days now with seasonal allergies- how do i know for sure? I don't! unless i can get a quick/easy/free test) - all can spread the disease for the simple reason this disease is hard to spot unless you are really really sick. Unfortunately vast majority of people who are still infectious have minor or no symptoms.
Originally posted by @Joe Kim:
i'm so frustrated that we as a country, a people, the greatest country in the world just cannot get the SIMPLE, not rocket science FACT that the best, easiest, fastest, least difficult way to end the crisis sooner, faster, with less economic impact is
#1 Testing - targeted sick with symptoms
#2 Testing - screening (asymptomatic)
#3 Testing - antibody testing for immunity and prior exposure
We just spent $2.2 Trillion dollars on sending checks to giant corporations, and more corporations, then a pittance to small business, and small but significant amount to regular Americans.
But why not spend $20 billion testing - as soon as we found out in Jan/Feb. Trump and the like love to quote - we have tested more than anyone else. - that matters little. 3.5 million tests is a drop in the bucket. We should be testing like 100 million or more. Why do you think we have shelter in place??
If you don't want to continue the "shelter at home" policies - you have to understand - the ONLY. I repeat the ONLY reason why we have to do this is because we don't have enough tests.
Here is an example:
1st case in Jan/2020 of positive covid patient in the USA. You trace all that person's contacts and test all of them. You then screen people in the vicinity. 2 week shelter in place. Again, the combination of shelter in place and vast testing would quickly identify the people who need to either stay at home or be isolated while preventing the spread.
Why do you think places like S. Korea, Taiwan, Japan all those places did well?
Actually it's not just testing. It's coordinated whole country effort to practice social distancing early, masks, sacrifice of one's "freedoms" for benefit of the society and completely following the rules as a nation.
So in America we love our freedoms and individualism. So we need testing since we didn't and still dont have enough masks to do physical barrier protections.
When people say, why are healthy people staying at home?? They have no clue about the nature of this disease and how it spreads. Asymptomatic people, people with mild symptoms, nonspecific symptoms (I have a cough for several days now with seasonal allergies- how do i know for sure? I don't! unless i can get a quick/easy/free test) - all can spread the disease for the simple reason this disease is hard to spot unless you are really really sick. Unfortunately vast majority of people who are still infectious have minor or no symptoms.
Really agree with you & upset we wasted all of January & February & half of March. I made the call to cancel a cruise March 10th because dr. Fauci said don't cruise. next days he changed his tune & said go ahead & cruise if you're healthy. Fauci needs to work on his lying skills if he wants to keep his job.
My "intel" is pretty limited. Can't believe the lack of "intelligence" in the us government these days.
@Bryan Beal You and others' who hold the same argument of personal liberties over public health need to rethink your position. You are adamantly holding the idea that you should be allowed to do whatever you want to, even in the midst of a public health crisis. The thing you are not understanding for some reason is the damage doing so would cause to public health, or at minimum the potential damage. You are correct you have liberties that would be respected during normal times, but during a public health crisis, OTHERS also have the liberty to NOT be exposed to a pandemic unnecessarily.
Let's calculate the body count if herd immunity is to be achieved. As of 18Apr2020 there are 2,240,291 worldwide cases and 153,822 worldwide deaths. The average by country is different, but let's assume a constant. The worldwide mortality rate is therefore (153,822/2,249,291 x 100) 6.839%.
Now that we have a mortality rate let's go to herd immunity. Generally it takes upwards of 70-90% of a population to achieve herd immunity and COVID-19 is a highly infectious disease, however let's use 70% as a low number. The population of the US is 328,200,000 as of 2019. So (328,200,000 x 0.70) 229,740,000 would have to had been infected at some point to provide herd immunity.
Given the mortality rate of 6.839% we can now calculate the mortality that would occur given the numbers presented (229,740,000 x 0.06839) 15,711,918 people would die in the US if nothing were done. That is using basic math, and although more advanced statistical models would have a range of numbers to include the social distancing variable but that goes to show trying to achieve herd immunity was definitely not on the table, and thus people needed to practice some social distancing and businesses had to temporarily close.
We chose to instead practice social distancing which lowered the death count considerably, and continues to do so. That is also why we must continue doing so as no amount of economic damage is worth the lives of 15.7 million people. That is why your argument of being able to go do whatever you want and make social distancing a personal choice is a false one, and assumes your actions have no consequences except to only you. Due to the fact that we started social distancing and limiting peoples' exposure we saves millions of lives, is that not worth a few months of economic damage?
That said we cannot continue social distancing until a vaccine/treatment is developed. There has to be a point the virus is under control enough and identified by testing that we can return to work. The problem here is that the federal government seems unwilling to provide testing for everyone and epidemiologists, business executives, and government officials alike all agree that mass testing is a requisite for return to somewhat normal activity. But going back to your point Brian, social distancing and stepping on some personal liberties was and still remains necessary. I support and defend the Constitution, I did so in the Navy and continue to do so now. I am also a RN so I recognize the danger we face here. Uninformed or idealistic arguments such as yours muddy the waters and take attention away from actually fixing this issue and instead complain about symptoms of the very cause we are trying to treat. Treat the cause first and symptoms second, an important part of healthcare, remember that.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Nancy P.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me address these one at a time -
@John Collins - I think you're missing the point. No one is arguing that the health care system is overburdened. If you choose to quarantine yourself so you don't contract this virus, that's perfectly fine. You stay inside, away from the world around you and you stay safe and cozy in your home. No problem with that at all. But if myself or anyone else is willing to carry the risk and go about our daily lives (and be surrounded by others that are willing to carry that same risk), why do you have a problem with that?
You talk about workers being "disproportionately affected" by this. And yes, that's exactly my point. Do you think that they don't also want to get back to work? If someone is willing to carry the risk, they should be allowed to go back to work. If they're not, they won't be forced to and they can stay home and stay safe. And I never came close to implying we shouldn't take care of the critically ill - don't put words in my mouth and get off your soap box. Rah rah.
@Scott Passman - At a certain point the damage done by shutting down the country is greater than the treatment itself. A large number of people who are taking these tests and burdening the health care system are not sick and not showing any symptoms. If only those who needed those tests and care got those tests and care, we'd be in a much better situation.
And same point as above - if someone is at risk and they want to stay at home, they can stay at home and quarantine to protect themselves. If others want to get back to real life, and we all agree to the risks involved, we can do that without impacting those who don't.
@Scott Wolf - You clearly didn't read my entire post. Drunk driving is both irresponsible and ILLEGAL. I specifically say "within the confines of the law" which obviously went unnoticed. And yes, everything has intended and unintended consequences - but if we allow those to quarantine who want to quarantine and those who want to get back to work get back to you, it's a win/win. Do you disagree?
@Bryan Beal Y'all got a good point.
They are talking about Covid-19 because they don't want to face the real issues.
More people die of more than a dozen other diseases every day, not counting obesity, not counting car accidents, not counting accidental deaths and drowning, Yes, there are more drowning deaths! You can't win a emotional fight (Covid-19 and sheer unfounded terror) with facts.
Facts don't matter to them. They've become the "Land of the Enslaved and the Home of the Terrified".
When you look at the Facts, the whole world looks a lot rosier.
I'm in a buyin' mode because they're in a "Scared Sellin' Mode. Don't Wake them up (tho' I don't think you can anyway), cause the deals are getting better and I'm swooping them up. None are so deaf as those who will not hear.
Keep up the Spirit bro' there is a future to plan for.
Peter Johnson, that's a ridiculously outdated graphic there. The US ALONE lost over 4500 people yesterday. Beating tuberculosis handily. Not to mention how silly it is to compare COVID-19 to the others that aren't nearly as communicable. So much misunderstanding here. I wish statistics and logic were required to graduate high school.
Then...
OP worries about "our ability to grow wealth through REI." Man, I can only pray for your heart to be softened. Worried about your money when lives are at stake. You don't seem to understand that just having the old folks stay home will not solve the problem. Despite two pages plus of people trying to explain it to you.
Also, did you study history? Have you ever researched the INCREDIBLE financial devastation caused by two World Wars? Yet, here I sit, the child of a man who stormed Omaha Beach on D-Day, living in wealth. I just returned from 3 years of living in Germany, where an even greater percentage of the population has a decent standard of living than the US---and that country was DESTROYED by the war. (Hell, in the three years we were there, 17 bombs were found in my city. WWII bombs still are unearthed seventy years later!). It will probably be an incredible financial devastation. But we will rise up again from that.
Lastly, since you also seem to not understand civics, a brief article explaining how your "rights" are not exactly the same as your internalized idea of what American stands for. https://www.politico.com/news/...
You quote Politico? Can't you find a credible source instead?
How many people have been exposed and infected that nothing happened to them?
You don't know that number do you?
How many children have died from Covid-19
You don't know that number do you?
How many of the cases were related to people 65 & older who had obesity problems and an underlying medical condition ?
You don't know that number do you?
"Most cases are people over 65 who are obese and have underlying medical conditions" is the correct answer.
Why are we laying off 22,000,000 people (which drives up suicide rates) when the problem is basically obesity,
which is a CHOICE!, and which is a factor in dying from Covid-19. People are Obese because they choose to be obese! Eat less, and you lose weight. Control your weight and Type II Diabetes goes away. When Type II diabetes goes away, you don't die from Covid-19. Follow the facts.
Obesity is FAT people. There! I said it. Don't get fat and Stay Alive. Lose that weight, baby. Live long and prosper.
credible sources? you're using a chart from March 9th!
But you might be right about fat people. So I'm gonna lose some weight here!
@Bryan Beal Do you have children???
Let’s say you carry out YOUR right to live your free will. You contract COVID and are Asymptomatic. (Stay with me I’m getting to my point.) You are now carry this virus around with you. You go to the grocery store. You pick up a bag a chips. You decide you no longer want said bag of chips. You put it back. The virus has jumped from you to this bag.
Now, the fella (we shall call him John) who comes in a hour later, has a heart disease, not tech savvy and has no choice but to do his own shopping picks up this same back of chips.
John wears his gloves, his mask and takes his hand sanitizer with him. He gets home and washes his hands for a full minute just to be on the safe side. He puts away his groceries, grabs a bowl, opens the bag a chips, pour a healthy serving and watch the news as he eats them.
(2 Weeks later John dies from complications of COVID -19)
After YOUR outing of grocery shopping and visiting YOUR brother. YOU arrive home. (Back to my original question.) You realize you have to use the restroom. As YOU relieve YOUR bladder you sneeze (!) Unbeknownst to you little itty bitty particles has landed on YOUR toilet paper. Little Brittany (she’s YOUR hypothetical 5 year old daughter, who has really bad seasonal allergies) has had a runny nose due to a high pollen count. Brittany enters the bathroom after you to wipe her nose, use the toilet paper that YOU just infected with COVID.
(2 weeks later little Brittany falls victim and becomes apart of that 0.11% that YOU wrote of)
Is your brother married? For the sake of this response let’s say he is. Mary is wife who welcomes you into her home with the usual huge that you receive from her during any other visit. COVID can live on skin, clothes and hair. BOOM Mary is now infected along with YOUR brother and 2 nephew Peter and Micheal. Pet, little Mikey and Bob (Robert YOUR brother) has made a full recovery but Mary was not as fortunate. She too is apart of that 0.11%.
Now, because YOU and twelve other people decide to exercise YOUR free will and just had to attend that Guns and Roses concert. YOU have no became the reason of soooooo much heartache. John, Mary and Brittany’s families are now also victims to the Coronavirus.
I hope this little story time has helped YOU to see a different perspective of the magnitude of WHY we ALL should put of “FREEDOM” aside for a while.
Sincerely,
A 31 year old, who’s companion for human life out ways my selfish need to be free and exercise my free will during a PANDEMIC
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Nancy P.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
Let me address these one at a time -
@John Collins - I think you're missing the point. No one is arguing that the health care system is overburdened. If you choose to quarantine yourself so you don't contract this virus, that's perfectly fine. You stay inside, away from the world around you and you stay safe and cozy in your home. No problem with that at all. But if myself or anyone else is willing to carry the risk and go about our daily lives (and be surrounded by others that are willing to carry that same risk), why do you have a problem with that?
You talk about workers being "disproportionately affected" by this. And yes, that's exactly my point. Do you think that they don't also want to get back to work? If someone is willing to carry the risk, they should be allowed to go back to work. If they're not, they won't be forced to and they can stay home and stay safe. And I never came close to implying we shouldn't take care of the critically ill - don't put words in my mouth and get off your soap box. Rah rah.
@Scott Passman - At a certain point the damage done by shutting down the country is greater than the treatment itself. A large number of people who are taking these tests and burdening the health care system are not sick and not showing any symptoms. If only those who needed those tests and care got those tests and care, we'd be in a much better situation.
And same point as above - if someone is at risk and they want to stay at home, they can stay at home and quarantine to protect themselves. If others want to get back to real life, and we all agree to the risks involved, we can do that without impacting those who don't.
@Scott Wolf - You clearly didn't read my entire post. Drunk driving is both irresponsible and ILLEGAL. I specifically say "within the confines of the law" which obviously went unnoticed. And yes, everything has intended and unintended consequences - but if we allow those to quarantine who want to quarantine and those who want to get back to work get back to you, it's a win/win. Do you disagree?
@Bryan Beal Y'all got a good point.
They are talking about Covid-19 because they don't want to face the real issues.
More people die of more than a dozen other diseases every day, not counting obesity, not counting car accidents, not counting accidental deaths and drowning, Yes, there are more drowning deaths! You can't win a emotional fight (Covid-19 and sheer unfounded terror) with facts.
Facts don't matter to them. They've become the "Land of the Enslaved and the Home of the Terrified".
When you look at the Facts, the whole world looks a lot rosier.
I'm in a buyin' mode because they're in a "Scared Sellin' Mode. Don't Wake them up (tho' I don't think you can anyway), cause the deals are getting better and I'm swooping them up. None are so deaf as those who will not hear.
Keep up the Spirit bro' there is a future to plan for.
Peter Johnson, that's a ridiculously outdated graphic there. The US ALONE lost over 4500 people yesterday. Beating tuberculosis handily. Not to mention how silly it is to compare COVID-19 to the others that aren't nearly as communicable. So much misunderstanding here. I wish statistics and logic were required to graduate high school.
Then...
OP worries about "our ability to grow wealth through REI." Man, I can only pray for your heart to be softened. Worried about your money when lives are at stake. You don't seem to understand that just having the old folks stay home will not solve the problem. Despite two pages plus of people trying to explain it to you.
Also, did you study history? Have you ever researched the INCREDIBLE financial devastation caused by two World Wars? Yet, here I sit, the child of a man who stormed Omaha Beach on D-Day, living in wealth. I just returned from 3 years of living in Germany, where an even greater percentage of the population has a decent standard of living than the US---and that country was DESTROYED by the war. (Hell, in the three years we were there, 17 bombs were found in my city. WWII bombs still are unearthed seventy years later!). It will probably be an incredible financial devastation. But we will rise up again from that.
Lastly, since you also seem to not understand civics, a brief article explaining how your "rights" are not exactly the same as your internalized idea of what American stands for. https://www.politico.com/news/...
You quote Politico? Can't you find a credible source instead?
How many people have been exposed and infected that nothing happened to them?
You don't know that number do you?
How many children have died from Covid-19
You don't know that number do you?
How many of the cases were related to people 65 & older who had obesity problems and an underlying medical condition ?
You don't know that number do you?
"Most cases are people over 65 who are obese and have underlying medical conditions" is the correct answer.
Why are we laying off 22,000,000 people (which drives up suicide rates) when the problem is basically obesity,
which is a CHOICE!, and which is a factor in dying from Covid-19. People are Obese because they choose to be obese! Eat less, and you lose weight. Control your weight and Type II Diabetes goes away. When Type II diabetes goes away, you don't die from Covid-19. Follow the facts.
Obesity is FAT people. There! I said it. Don't get fat and Stay Alive. Lose that weight, baby. Live long and prosper.
Yes, indeed, I am going to lose some weight. Thanks for the motivation, Peter.
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
@Account Closed
What can I say? I am the soul of reason and I make good decisions, always.
Interesting topic.
Without health their no wealth. Sometime taking pain now will help down the road for a smoother recovery. Just like any health issue their initial pain and the hope is to get better. The initial part is the hardest part.
As for the cases reducing. That because of the lock down. If remove. it will spike. My friend who a nurse said the counts are higher. The people who have gotten the virus initially did not take it seriously now they are the ones who are asking people to stay home. As far as other parts of the country we will not know till later. Just like when the cases started in USA. It started first in Cali and Washington and Cali took action right away to slow the spread.
Regarding the right to choose. I agree a person has a right to choose. It a free country. But it has a liability: Law Suit. So let say someone goes out and is sick and make someone else sick. That will create a liability. If you look around a lot of lawsuits have already increased. Students are suing colleges for refunds. Even companies who plan to open are worried how to deal with privacy and liability. Insurance companies are worried about payouts. Now you wonder how would they track who spread it. For that gov has announce plans for tracking - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200415-covid-19-could-bluetooth-contact-tracing-end-lockdown-early
I wish the stimulus money that was first passed helped the small businesses and better distributed to the public then focusing on bailouts. They could have done infrastructure projects that would have created tons of jobs. It funny taxpayer money is used to bail out airlines, but in exchange they give us small seats, charge us for everything. Not allow us to cancel tickets etc. But yet we are suppose to bail them out?
@Peter Johnson You don't understand how much I travel do you? I was in the US Navy and I'm also work around the world as a travel RN so I see far more of the world than most people, likely including you. Anyways my point was that no matter which constant you choose to use in place of my world average, use whatever figure you choose because the math is the same. Millions of deaths if we did nothing, and even now with out social distancing we are still the world epicenter. Had we done nothing what is happening in NYC would be happening all over the US, so you choosing to ignore that is strange. This is a public health crisis, and picking at my wording but ignoring the validity of my argument is not helping anything and is making you look foolish.
Edit: I also have trouble locating where I once compared the US to Uganda, Indonesia, or Venezuela. I took publicly available numbers, used basic math, and applied the results. I even quantified by saying I know each country is different but let's assume a constant. You do know that means I used an average, right? I could have chosen to use mean, or perhaps country specific but my point was to show that doing nothing was not an option. Had you chosen to check my math and provide corrections or insight that would be helpful, but to make fun of me assuming and then assume I don't travel is rather hypocritical. Please provide discussion, real discussion with opinions backed by data. you tried to do that initially and once you were called out on using old data and your argument fell apart you resorted to name calling.
@Bryan Beal - I respectfully have to say that your original post (I didn’t even bother reading the rest of the thread) makes you sound like a very spoiled and selfish individual.
I wish there were a “thumbs down” button on BP.
@Bryan Beal
It'd be realllllyyyy horrible if you got it! It sounds like you understand the Healthcare system and all the ins and outs of it. Best to let everyone suffer while your bottom dollar is safe. I volunteer you as tribute.
@Bryan Beal
Real estate is always about balancing: Risk -v- Reward. Let's use that lense...
Money has a short memory. To say that the US economy will collapse if people have to stay in their homes for 2 more months seems a really far stretch. Yes, it might be harder and yes, the govt. will have to give more handouts - BUT the reward is back to a fully functioning system in a 6-9 months, maybe longer. Even it takes 12 months (a typical recession period- and aren't we due for a correction anyway?) money forgets and market forces will raise again.
Choice 2
Bryan gets the freedoms he desires. Reward. Reward? ...(to sit in a movie theatre alone?) ... I am sure there are many benefits people could come up with...
BUT AT WHAT risk - to himself, his neighbors, his family, his customers, the kids playing in his street (yes kids have pre-existing conditions too) the country? The virus can kill up to 10% - but seems to average around 2-5% dependent on location. REMEMBER ... the deaths in Italy and Europe ONLY STARTED TO RISE AFTER THE LOCKDOWNS were in place (March 12- look at death rate in Italy then). Can you imagine what the situation would be now if social distancing were NOT enforced there for the last month??? Is the freedom you seek worth the unforseen risk of a comletely out of control virus that kills 5% of the population.
Bottom line here...in the case.. #s will not lie. Some of those people in Michigan this week will very likely catch the virus. Places that open to soon will have higher death rates than those that don't (see Sweden's #) - They will not shut don't and #s are surging. In 12 months, the numbers will tell the truth - what should or shouldn't have been done. Personally, I don't think the reward is worth the risk.
I live in Singapore. People here trust the government to give them truthful information. Our numbers have begun to spike. Nobody is even considering wanting to go back to work.
Most people only generally believe what they see for themselves. When you see people in your own communities suffering with the virus opinions will likely change.
Wishing everybody health And wellness.
New Jersey and NYC are running out of places to store people that died from covod-19 & are looking to buy more refrigerated trailers. That picture is a temporary morgue at Rutgers university parking lot in Newark NJ.
Think about this people die all the time normally from various other diseases. we have morgues built and you never hear of a shortage of morgues. Which is crazy because someone is literally always dying during normal times.
Now imagine how overwhelmed a hospital must be right now if they're filling these morgues up so quickly that they ran out of space and need to use trailers. Good thing we have put these restrictions in place because guess what when we run out of clean hospital beds the fatality rate will go much higher and it will spread that much quicker. That is why we had to flatten the curve.
None of your liberties were taken away during this virus. You still have all the constitutional rights you're entitled to as an American.
"If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. "
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I have not read this thread so I am sure lots of others have said what I am about to say: Your problem, in economic terms, is externalities. Your becoming a carrier of disease imposes a cost on me. It's not like I choose to not buy your product or rent from you. I can be walking down the street near you and you cough. OR maybe I am quarantining and you deliver my food and groceries. Guess what? Your bar hopping and congregating just infected me, and imposed costs on me.
That's why states (general jurisdiction) have the power to curb your "rights" when your "rights" pose a threat to public health.
"Doesn’t the “common good” also let people live their lives and provide them rights to not worry about where their next meal should is coming because they can’t work and have lost their incomes? I’m all about having a discussion but this “common good” you speak of works both ways."
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Of course it does, which is why the decision to lock down is a political decision informed and necessitated by science (health) considerations. You may not like the balance struck, but that does not mean that your rights were "violated."
March 4, 1789"
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Actually Bill F, quarantines for public health is a state power that existed long before the U.S. Constitution. The federal government is irrelevant to the matter, Trump's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. The feds have no say in the matter.
@Scott Wolf if you want to make government
Larger and have more control of the people andtake away their rights, you place
fear in them. When the Spanish flu hit, the government did not shut down; not even when the second round hit. The CDC predicts there
will be 63,000 deaths this season due to the flu.
This has not made the news. The deaths have
been 36,000. These are not confirmed because
if someone dies from pneumonia or respiratory
problems, they are listed as the wuhan virus. New York has padded their numbers by 57%. So have other cities. What the increase in alcoholism, drug abuse, domestic violence, child abuse? I agree your rights can’t endanger other people’s rights; but I refuse to have the government tell me what business is essential; every business is essential to the person trying to support their family. I’m not wearing a mask when I go out in public. If other people want to, they can: then they are protected from me. The constitution was written for a reason and so was the Bill of Rights.