The 5 Biggest Mistakes New Investors Are Making Here In The Forums

[Jonathan Greene]

These are here to help you make better connections in the forums. It's ok to be new, but if you consider these five tips, you will get much better responses to your questions.

1. Writing too little or too much in a post looking for answers. There is a happy medium out there. If you write a novel, most of us won't read it because it's just too much. If you write too little, we have nothing to go on. Ask one question and tell everyone what you have done up to this point to get the answers. Also, give relevant information on rates, prices, square footage, etc.

2. Asking for a mentor without having anything to give. This is running rampant. It's great to get in the forums and look to make connections, but when you only put your hand out and ask for help and have nothing to give back, you are only going to get people who are going to pitch you. A few locals may reach out (more likely local agents), but you will never hear back if you hop on that call and only want to take from them.

3. Being fragile when you don't get the responses you want. If someone doesn't give you the answer you want and you clap back, your time in the forums will be short. Not because you will get removed but because you aren't open to advice. Sometimes, you will ask one question, but pros will have other questions to see if you are even asking the right question. Open forums aren't the best option if you are prone to fragility.

4. Asking questions without researching how often the same question has been asked. See "Should I start an LLC?" as an example. If you want to get the best responses, don't ask a question that has been asked a million times. Do your due diligence in the forums, looking for other answers, and use those to frame a better question.

5. Posting the same question in multiple forums. This is a definite no-no. Please stop. Pick one forum where your question makes the most sense. If it's a good question, we will find it. If you post the same question in several forums, we all know it's spam. You know it's spam. Don't spam.

If you are an experienced commenter here, let everyone know what you think of these to help them even more. Add some of your own.

If you are new, please use these to help yourself get better answers here.

[Jonathan Greene]

Quote from @FR W.:

Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness.  Being offended or taken aback by someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.  Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process.  Please be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as seasoned as you might be.  Your response just might be the final straw in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what others have successfully done before.  Lead with kindness.  Don't hide behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not.  What you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the question won't ask another... and that's not what we want.  We're here to help... not hurt or hinder. 

Thanks for the tips :)

F r a g i l e.

What you call rude, others call business.

Explain how the original post would not help a new person to the site for the better.

I will still be waiting...

[FR W.]

Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

Quote from @FR W.:

Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness.  Being offended or taken aback by someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.  Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process.  Please be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as seasoned as you might be.  Your response just might be the final straw in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what others have successfully done before.  Lead with kindness.  Don't hide behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not.  What you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the question won't ask another... and that's not what we want.  We're here to help... not hurt or hinder. 

Thanks for the tips :)

F r a g i l e.

What you call rude, others call business.

Explain how the original post would not help a new person to the site for the better.

I will still be waiting...

[FR W.]

I'm not sure why you posted F R A G I L E, but "do you" whatever it means. 

"You" took offense to what I said clearly since you came back and began your post with F R A G I L E.  I could have started this reply with C H I L D I S H but I didn't.  So, moving on. 

Those of you who have put yourselves on this pedestal because you spend so much time here posting and leaving clapback comments (that was your word, right?), that you've racked up so many votes from those who may not necessarily agree with what you've said, but are too afraid to challenge or add a different view of what you said, are most often the problem.  Your response to my take on your post is a perfect example.  I wasn't negating your post, I was only offering a different view... one that too many face and feel, yet one that not many will speak up on, again, because there are those with "bully" syndrome and this superiority complex who shut them down every time they ask a question. 

You're right, what some call business, I might find rude, because I don't think that there is EVER A TIME OR PLACE FOR RUDE. But there's always, always, always, time to HELP someone who needs it.

And those new investors asking for assistance, maybe they won't see your post with all that "helpful advice" as you call it, because you've posted it in one place - maybe they'll get on here and will be so overwhelmed at first, that they just won't know where to start;  maybe they won't know to jump on here and start searching; maybe they won't know that they have to come to the table with an offer of some kind of help TO GET HELP FIRST (by the way, if you're new and reading this, please know that everyone out there doesn't live in the land of, "If you want my help and advice, what will you do for me?" world - some people live genuinely in service to others and they want to help, without wanting anything in return); maybe the new investor won't know the right questions to ask or how much information they should have, or even HOW to formulate that information into a question worthy of "your" response.

So, I will repeat what I said initially, in case the folks in the back didn't see it the first time:  
Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned
investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness. Being offended or taken aback by
someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you
are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.
Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process. Please
be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as
seasoned as you might be. Your response just might be the final straw
in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what
others have successfully done before. Lead with kindness. Don't hide
behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not. What
you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the
question won't ask another... and that's not what we want. We're here
to help... not hurt or hinder.

Your wait is over...

[Becca F.]

@Jonathan Greene

#1 I've been guilty of posting novels. I've tried to be more concise in my posts

#4 I've had people DM about LLCs after I've posted multiple times about looking to get LLCs, holding companies all layered under a trust (still don't have LLCs). If someone's looking to start LLCs layered under different entities it ain't me lol

I would add expecting "push the Zillow button and expect $400 cash flow buying in 2023-2024 marketing using Other People's Money" because some social media guru told them RE investing is so easy after the run up in property values 2013-2022 and the guru quit their W2 jobs before the age of 40. 

[Becca F.]

Quote from @Michael S.:

Quote from @Michael P.:

What are the 5 biggest mistakes seasoned investors are making here in the forums? (jk)

 1.  Answering any post that starts with "I have one million in liquid cash and not sure what to do with it".  

2.  Putting "Columbus, OH" in any part of their post.

3.  Answering any post that starts with "I want to start investing and have no money".

4. Continuing to interact with posters who have no experience in REI, yet tell the experienced investor they are "wrong" or "old school" in their investing strategy.

5.  Conversing with any poster who is new and tells us how "great" their mentor program is that costs $20,000.  

 I laughed so hard I almost spit my coffee out on my laptop. 

Seriously #3  is pretty sad. I've warned a few people if you don't have large cash reserves are and are buying Class C in Midwest (I'm talking especially to my California friends), get ready to pay out for all the repairs and cap ex on your "cash flow on paper" properties (like I'm doing). 

#5 There seem to be shills for these gurus/mentors posting on the forums. 

[Jonathan Greene]

Quote from @FR W.:

I'm not sure why you posted F R A G I L E, but "do you" whatever it means. 

"You" took offense to what I said clearly since you came back and began your post with F R A G I L E.  I could have started this reply with C H I L D I S H but I didn't.  So, moving on. 

Those of you who have put yourselves on this pedestal because you spend so much time here posting and leaving clapback comments (that was your word, right?), that you've racked up so many votes from those who may not necessarily agree with what you've said, but are too afraid to challenge or add a different view of what you said, are most often the problem.  Your response to my take on your post is a perfect example.  I wasn't negating your post, I was only offering a different view... one that too many face and feel, yet one that not many will speak up on, again, because there are those with "bully" syndrome and this superiority complex who shut them down every time they ask a question. 

You're right, what some call business, I might find rude, because I don't think that there is EVER A TIME OR PLACE FOR RUDE. But there's always, always, always, time to HELP someone who needs it.

And those new investors asking for assistance, maybe they won't see your post with all that "helpful advice" as you call it, because you've posted it in one place - maybe they'll get on here and will be so overwhelmed at first, that they just won't know where to start;  maybe they won't know to jump on here and start searching; maybe they won't know that they have to come to the table with an offer of some kind of help TO GET HELP FIRST (by the way, if you're new and reading this, please know that everyone out there doesn't live in the land of, "If you want my help and advice, what will you do for me?" world - some people live genuinely in service to others and they want to help, without wanting anything in return); maybe the new investor won't know the right questions to ask or how much information they should have, or even HOW to formulate that information into a question worthy of "your" response.

So, I will repeat what I said initially, in case the folks in the back didn't see it the first time:  
Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned
investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness. Being offended or taken aback by
someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you
are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.
Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process. Please
be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as
seasoned as you might be. Your response just might be the final straw
in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what
others have successfully done before. Lead with kindness. Don't hide
behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not. What
you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the
question won't ask another... and that's not what we want. We're here
to help... not hurt or hinder.

Your wait is over...

Didn't read. TLDR.

[FR W.]

Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

Quote from @FR W.:

I'm not sure why you posted F R A G I L E, but "do you" whatever it means. 

"You" took offense to what I said clearly since you came back and began your post with F R A G I L E.  I could have started this reply with C H I L D I S H but I didn't.  So, moving on. 

Those of you who have put yourselves on this pedestal because you spend so much time here posting and leaving clapback comments (that was your word, right?), that you've racked up so many votes from those who may not necessarily agree with what you've said, but are too afraid to challenge or add a different view of what you said, are most often the problem.  Your response to my take on your post is a perfect example.  I wasn't negating your post, I was only offering a different view... one that too many face and feel, yet one that not many will speak up on, again, because there are those with "bully" syndrome and this superiority complex who shut them down every time they ask a question. 

You're right, what some call business, I might find rude, because I don't think that there is EVER A TIME OR PLACE FOR RUDE. But there's always, always, always, time to HELP someone who needs it.

And those new investors asking for assistance, maybe they won't see your post with all that "helpful advice" as you call it, because you've posted it in one place - maybe they'll get on here and will be so overwhelmed at first, that they just won't know where to start;  maybe they won't know to jump on here and start searching; maybe they won't know that they have to come to the table with an offer of some kind of help TO GET HELP FIRST (by the way, if you're new and reading this, please know that everyone out there doesn't live in the land of, "If you want my help and advice, what will you do for me?" world - some people live genuinely in service to others and they want to help, without wanting anything in return); maybe the new investor won't know the right questions to ask or how much information they should have, or even HOW to formulate that information into a question worthy of "your" response.

So, I will repeat what I said initially, in case the folks in the back didn't see it the first time:  
Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned
investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness. Being offended or taken aback by
someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you
are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.
Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process. Please
be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as
seasoned as you might be. Your response just might be the final straw
in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what
others have successfully done before. Lead with kindness. Don't hide
behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not. What
you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the
question won't ask another... and that's not what we want. We're here
to help... not hurt or hinder.

Your wait is over...

Didn't read. TLDR.

 I'm sure - Have an amazing weekend :)

[FR W.]

Quote from @FR W.:

Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

Quote from @FR W.:

I'm not sure why you posted F R A G I L E, but "do you" whatever it means. 

"You" took offense to what I said clearly since you came back and began your post with F R A G I L E.  I could have started this reply with C H I L D I S H but I didn't.  So, moving on. 

Those of you who have put yourselves on this pedestal because you spend so much time here posting and leaving clapback comments (that was your word, right?), that you've racked up so many votes from those who may not necessarily agree with what you've said, but are too afraid to challenge or add a different view of what you said, are most often the problem.  Your response to my take on your post is a perfect example.  I wasn't negating your post, I was only offering a different view... one that too many face and feel, yet one that not many will speak up on, again, because there are those with "bully" syndrome and this superiority complex who shut them down every time they ask a question. 

You're right, what some call business, I might find rude, because I don't think that there is EVER A TIME OR PLACE FOR RUDE. But there's always, always, always, time to HELP someone who needs it.

And those new investors asking for assistance, maybe they won't see your post with all that "helpful advice" as you call it, because you've posted it in one place - maybe they'll get on here and will be so overwhelmed at first, that they just won't know where to start;  maybe they won't know to jump on here and start searching; maybe they won't know that they have to come to the table with an offer of some kind of help TO GET HELP FIRST (by the way, if you're new and reading this, please know that everyone out there doesn't live in the land of, "If you want my help and advice, what will you do for me?" world - some people live genuinely in service to others and they want to help, without wanting anything in return); maybe the new investor won't know the right questions to ask or how much information they should have, or even HOW to formulate that information into a question worthy of "your" response.

So, I will repeat what I said initially, in case the folks in the back didn't see it the first time:  
Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned
investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness. Being offended or taken aback by
someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you
are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.
Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process. Please
be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as
seasoned as you might be. Your response just might be the final straw
in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what
others have successfully done before. Lead with kindness. Don't hide
behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not. What
you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the
question won't ask another... and that's not what we want. We're here
to help... not hurt or hinder.

Your wait is over...

Didn't read. TLDR.

I'm sure you read every single syllable - have a great weekend :)

[Leo R.]

@Jonathan Greene great list, I agree 100%

Another newbie mistake: not thanking experienced pros who take the time to provide a detailed, well-written, experienced-based response to a newb question. I see this happening fairly often.

Even if you don't agree with what a pro is saying, at least thank them for their valuable time--that's just basic courtesy and professionalism!

We have pros on this forum whose time is objectively worth thousands, tens of thousands (or possibly even hundreds of thousands or more) per hour--based on their actual earnings, and who have decades of experience in REI! 

Attorneys charge hundreds (or thousands) of dollars for every hour of their time, yet we have REI pros here whose time is objectively more valuable--and they're giving it away for free! The least newbies can do is thank these pros for their extremely valuable time--that's manners 101.

[Brad S.]

Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

Quote from @FR W.:

I'm not sure why you posted F R A G I L E, but "do you" whatever it means. 

"You" took offense to what I said clearly since you came back and began your post with F R A G I L E.  I could have started this reply with C H I L D I S H but I didn't.  So, moving on. 

Those of you who have put yourselves on this pedestal because you spend so much time here posting and leaving clapback comments (that was your word, right?), that you've racked up so many votes from those who may not necessarily agree with what you've said, but are too afraid to challenge or add a different view of what you said, are most often the problem.  Your response to my take on your post is a perfect example.  I wasn't negating your post, I was only offering a different view... one that too many face and feel, yet one that not many will speak up on, again, because there are those with "bully" syndrome and this superiority complex who shut them down every time they ask a question. 

You're right, what some call business, I might find rude, because I don't think that there is EVER A TIME OR PLACE FOR RUDE. But there's always, always, always, time to HELP someone who needs it.

And those new investors asking for assistance, maybe they won't see your post with all that "helpful advice" as you call it, because you've posted it in one place - maybe they'll get on here and will be so overwhelmed at first, that they just won't know where to start;  maybe they won't know to jump on here and start searching; maybe they won't know that they have to come to the table with an offer of some kind of help TO GET HELP FIRST (by the way, if you're new and reading this, please know that everyone out there doesn't live in the land of, "If you want my help and advice, what will you do for me?" world - some people live genuinely in service to others and they want to help, without wanting anything in return); maybe the new investor won't know the right questions to ask or how much information they should have, or even HOW to formulate that information into a question worthy of "your" response.

So, I will repeat what I said initially, in case the folks in the back didn't see it the first time:  
Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned
investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness. Being offended or taken aback by
someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you
are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.
Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process. Please
be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as
seasoned as you might be. Your response just might be the final straw
in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what
others have successfully done before. Lead with kindness. Don't hide
behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not. What
you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the
question won't ask another... and that's not what we want. We're here
to help... not hurt or hinder.

Your wait is over...

Didn't read. TLDR.

In other words .... See 1.

:P

[Bruce Woodruff]

Good post @Jonathan Greene!

My 2 gripes are: 

No simple thank you for advice that is insanely valuable

Everyone wants shortcuts and easy nowadays.....How many times do we hear - "Is there an App for ________?"

[Jonathan Greene]

Quote from @Leo R.:

@Jonathan Greene great list, I agree 100%

Another newbie mistake: not thanking experienced pros who take the time to provide a detailed, well-written, experienced-based response to a newb question. I see this happening fairly often.

Even if you don't agree with what a pro is saying, at least thank them for their valuable time--that's just basic courtesy and professionalism!

We have pros on this forum whose time is objectively worth thousands, tens of thousands (or possibly even hundreds of thousands or more) per hour--based on their actual earnings, and who have decades of experience in REI! 

Attorneys charge hundreds (or thousands) of dollars for every hour of their time, yet we have REI pros here whose time is objectively more valuable--and they're giving it away for free! The least newbies can do is thank these pros for their extremely valuable time--that's manners 101.

Yes, great point. It's because a lot people (newbies and oldies) only want a specific answer to a question that goes with what they want to hear instead of the truth. And they wonder why they fail.

[Jonathan Greene]

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Good post @Jonathan Greene!

My 2 gripes are: 

No simple thank you for advice that is insanely valuable

Everyone wants shortcuts and easy nowadays.....How many times do we hear - "Is there an App for ________?"

Yes, Bruce. I was mentioning in another reply that so many people only want you to tell them what they want to hear (even though they have no idea what they are doing). It's pretty sad and some of these responses show the same mentality.

I even went back and read my original post and was like, wow, this is the nicest thing I have ever written. :) And somehow not only are some people not thankful, they are offended. GL to them.

[Dan H.]

Quote from @David Dachtera:

@Jonathan Greene,

Good points, though some deserve a bit more discussion.

#1 and #3 are probably the best, though #1 is often just being new to any forum, REI related or not. Perhaps a forum-specific "First Post" template pinned to the head of the forum topic list could help new folks see how to structure an appropriate first inquiry.

#2 just about defines a "newbie": someone with little or nothing to offer other than futures. I often see this interpreted as being asked to work for nothing. My response to that would be "no one gets a paycheck their first day on a new job, aside from a signing bonus", and those signing bonuses often have tenure requirements for the payout. Just to bolster one's own credibility, offer to accept a portion of the newbie's first deal profits as a show of good faith. While the relationship may ultimately prove untenable, that will be YOUR payment for the education toward becoming an effective mentor.

#4 and #5 really just show up shortfalls in the Bigger Pockets Forums.

#4 shows up the need for a more effective way to search the forums. BP's search function can be likened to Google in it's infancy. Yes, it searches, but there's no way to identify the "head" of thread where a question first appears. It also doesn't seem to recognize a quoted string versus the individual words in a search query. Perhaps an option to only search topic lines versus searching the entire forum database would prove helpful.

#5 is sort of the reverse of #4. There is no option link a question to multiple forums. I had the same issue with AOL decades ago - they called it spam, I called it covering all the bases. A single question could relevant to multiple forums, but attempting to engage the denizens of multiple forums is considered "spam" (it isn't). For example, in the left-hand column on this page, under "Financial, Tax and Legal" are forum topics which often overlap such as "Tax, SDIRAs and & Cost Segregation", "Goals, Business Plans and Entities" and "Personal Finance" could all be relevant to someone's question, but there's (currently) no way to engage the denizens of all those forums without posting in all of them (what you want to call "spamming").

My $0.02 ...

I am shocked that a forum as big, popular, and profitable as bigger pockets does not have a more capable search function.   Something where I can make selections such as limit to topics only or include the bodies.  Search filtered by poster, date range, forum categories, etc.  means to order the search finding such as most recent, best match to search topic, etc.  Means to exclude certain matches.  Etc

with the poor search functionality, I do not blame newbies for not using it.  I have been using these forums a few years (my guess is 5 years) and I find the search hard to use. 

I do not want to discourage the passive investing sub forum (syndications), but I think improving search functionality would be more helpful to more of the users. 

I recognize BP has to prioritize and return is part of any analysis of areas to add/improve, but search function currently is very poor.  I think I Would give it a D-.

[Dan H.]

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Good post @Jonathan Greene!

My 2 gripes are: 

No simple thank you for advice that is insanely valuable

Everyone wants shortcuts and easy nowadays.....How many times do we hear - "Is there an App for ________?"

I think sometimes the newbies do not see the value of the information or offer of help.

there was a thread on starting on storage units by @henry Clark.  It had so much detail based on years of lessons learned.  The person the thread was primarily dedicated to simply was not following the advice accurately enough or being too lazy.  IMO the info that Henry presented in the thread could have formed the basis of a guru course worth thousands of dollars.  

just as the person it was directed to would not do what was requested, he also appeared to not fully value the great guidance offered.  

I recently was finishing a rehab that in terms of budget was my worst ever (not ideal at my experience level but shows even those with experience have learning opportunities) but was still feeling generous to a local newbie.  I told him what day I expected to finish the rehab and to contact me at that time and I would treat him to a burrito and beer to discuss local RE.  Note I have 8 digits of local RE and my net worth increases over 7 digits per year for at least the last handful of years.  If I judge my hourly on net worth, my hourly value is in excess of $500/hour.  He never contacted me.  When I was starting out I would have loved to have someone like me treat me to a lunch to discuss RE.  I would have placed the date on the calendar and on that date I would have inquired if the offer was still available and whatever date the experienced person had, I would have made sure I was available.  

I do not make such offers often and am surprised when someone does not make use of the offer.  At worst case, they would have gotten a free meal and beer for some time and if what we discussed had no value to them, they could ignore it.  Best case is they get a free meal and walk away with a lot of valuable information.  

some newbies will never not be newbies.  

[Bruce Woodruff]

Quote from @Dan H.:

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Good post @Jonathan Greene!

My 2 gripes are: 

No simple thank you for advice that is insanely valuable

Everyone wants shortcuts and easy nowadays.....How many times do we hear - "Is there an App for ________?"

I think sometimes the newbies do not see the value of the information or offer if help.

there was a thread on starting on storage units by @henry Clark.  It had so much detail based on years of lessons learned.  The person the thread was primarily dedicated to simply was not following the advice accurately enough or being too lazy.  IMO the info that Henry presented in the thread could have formed the basis of a guru course worth thousands of dollars.  

just as the person it was directed to would not do what was requested, he also appeared to not fully value the great guidance offered.  

I recently was finishing a rehab that in terms of budget was my worst ever (not ideal at my experience level but shows even those with experience have learning opportunities) but was still feeling generous to a local newbie.  I told him what day I expected to finish the rehab and to contact me at that time and I would treat him to a burrito and beer to discuss local RE.  Note I have 8 digits of local RE and my net worth increases over 7 digits per year for at least the last handful of years.  If I judge my hourly on net worth, my hourly value is in excess of $500/hour.  He never contacted me.  When I was starting out I would have loved to have someone like me treat me to a lunch to discuss RE.  I would have placed the date on the calendar and on that date I would have inquired if the offer was still available and whatever date the experienced person had, I would have made sure I was available.  

I do not make such offers often and am surprised when someone does not make use of the offer.  At worst case, they would have gotten a free meal and beer for some time and if what we discussed had no value to them, they could ignore it.  Best case is they get a free meal and walk away with a lot of valuable information.  

some newbies will never not be newbies.  

 That happens, people are funny aren't they? I have volunteered to mentor a couple of people on here, at no charge, who have been outstanding at doing the work I assign them, and so grateful for the help. 

And then there are others that I have reached out to via private message and offered a couple of free sessions, and been turned down flat. Go figure.

[Carlos Ptriawan]

Quote from @Dan H.:

Quote from @David Dachtera:

@Jonathan Greene,

Good points, though some deserve a bit more discussion.

#1 and #3 are probably the best, though #1 is often just being new to any forum, REI related or not. Perhaps a forum-specific "First Post" template pinned to the head of the forum topic list could help new folks see how to structure an appropriate first inquiry.

#2 just about defines a "newbie": someone with little or nothing to offer other than futures. I often see this interpreted as being asked to work for nothing. My response to that would be "no one gets a paycheck their first day on a new job, aside from a signing bonus", and those signing bonuses often have tenure requirements for the payout. Just to bolster one's own credibility, offer to accept a portion of the newbie's first deal profits as a show of good faith. While the relationship may ultimately prove untenable, that will be YOUR payment for the education toward becoming an effective mentor.

#4 and #5 really just show up shortfalls in the Bigger Pockets Forums.

#4 shows up the need for a more effective way to search the forums. BP's search function can be likened to Google in it's infancy. Yes, it searches, but there's no way to identify the "head" of thread where a question first appears. It also doesn't seem to recognize a quoted string versus the individual words in a search query. Perhaps an option to only search topic lines versus searching the entire forum database would prove helpful.

#5 is sort of the reverse of #4. There is no option link a question to multiple forums. I had the same issue with AOL decades ago - they called it spam, I called it covering all the bases. A single question could relevant to multiple forums, but attempting to engage the denizens of multiple forums is considered "spam" (it isn't). For example, in the left-hand column on this page, under "Financial, Tax and Legal" are forum topics which often overlap such as "Tax, SDIRAs and & Cost Segregation", "Goals, Business Plans and Entities" and "Personal Finance" could all be relevant to someone's question, but there's (currently) no way to engage the denizens of all those forums without posting in all of them (what you want to call "spamming").

My $0.02 ...

I am shocked that a forum as big, popular, and profitable as bigger pockets does not have a more capable search function.

Biggerpocket is searchable publicly. No need to have search inside BP. We can use AI that summarize the answer from all 10+ years discussions.

I alwasy ask something like this AI prompt "In biggerpocket site, what's the recommended approach when........ .."

[Kevin S.]

Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

Quote from @Kevin S.:

Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

Quote from @Kevin S.:

@David Dachtera

A well balanced response.  You took the time to dig deeper and come up with more plausible explanation than just shining 'more' negative light on newbies.  More respect to you.  

Newbies are newbies for a reason.  Yes, some will stay newbies and some will move up.  

I don't read anything negative in the original post aginst newbies. It's there to help people. There are good newbies who try and learn and a plethora of bad newbies who are just being time sucks and lazy. It's easy to find good newbies, but if they all can take the tips to help them get better answers, that was the point.

 I don't disagree with things you posted but you certainly grouped all newbies together for one.

"Asking for a mentor without having anything to give.  This is running rampant".  On a forum such as this where hundreds (?)of members are joining weekly or monthly, maybe thousands, a few dozens newbies asking for help on weekly basis may seem like it is running "rampant".  Or is it?

True, newbies sometimes don't realize what is expected of them and they have to be nudged or like one post mentioned some truly don't know how to navigate this forum yet.

You don't read anything negative?  Is there anything positive?  

The truly gracious seasoned members just ignore the newbies (uninformed post or whatever adjective you want to attach) giving them space and time to grow.  They don't complain instead choose to answer if and when they feel like they want to help. 

Then the truly, truly, truly gracious members neither complain nor expect anything in return for their help.  

You are the problem. How long have you been here? Some of us have been here for more than 10 years so we know what is still running rampant and what is not. You are proving the post in spades by your reaction. Is there anything positive? The post is to help newbies not step in the mud, which gets them no responses.

I also find it hilarious that you are intimating that I am not gracious. As if I should thank every newbie for gracing the forums. I don't work for BiggerPockets. I've been investing for more than 30 years and spend time in here to help people. Fragile people, like yourself, can only see the lens through their own self-worth.

 So that's it.  You are bigger and better than others.  And you are supposed to be a mentor?  I found a mentor here on BP and he certainly doesn't display such arrogance.  Your post is not about newbies.  It is all about you.  It's about how much better you are, how much longer you been here, your self worth is better than others.  You are so good you are able to help others.  

You clearly wrote in your post about getting something in return for helping.  Is that helping?  I am sure you did in the past and still do but your complaining an condescending tone about newbies is stark and glaring in your post.  You are using your good deed of past to justify your condescending post.  The fact that you find things "hilarious" is your arrogance on display.  Obviously the graciousness has hit a nerve.

Newbies are fragile, that I admit.  And you don't need to thank them for gracing this forum.  Just thank them for being a punching bag. Give you something to write about and feel good about yourself.  Using 'helping' as an excuse to write what you wrote doesn't hide what's (and who's) behind it.  I am sticking my neck out for newbies.  Then again, what do I know.  

I am the problem.  You been here longer.  You are the one helping people.  You get to decide what's hilarious, what 's not.  I am the fragile one.  And surely, my self worth is far below yours. More power to you.   

[Kevin S.]

Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

These are here to help you make better connections in the forums. It's ok to be new, but if you consider these five tips, you will get much better responses to your questions.

1. Writing too little or too much in a post looking for answers. There is a happy medium out there. If you write a novel, most of us won't read it because it's just too much. If you write too little, we have nothing to go on. Ask one question and tell everyone what you have done up to this point to get the answers. Also, give relevant information on rates, prices, square footage, etc.

2. Asking for a mentor without having anything to give. This is running rampant. It's great to get in the forums and look to make connections, but when you only put your hand out and ask for help and have nothing to give back, you are only going to get people who are going to pitch you. A few locals may reach out (more likely local agents), but you will never hear back if you hop on that call and only want to take from them.

3. Being fragile when you don't get the responses you want. If someone doesn't give you the answer you want and you clap back, your time in the forums will be short. Not because you will get removed but because you aren't open to advice. Sometimes, you will ask one question, but pros will have other questions to see if you are even asking the right question. Open forums aren't the best option if you are prone to fragility.

4. Asking questions without researching how often the same question has been asked. See "Should I start an LLC?" as an example. If you want to get the best responses, don't ask a question that has been asked a million times. Do your due diligence in the forums, looking for other answers, and use those to frame a better question.

5. Posting the same question in multiple forums. This is a definite no-no. Please stop. Pick one forum where your question makes the most sense. If it's a good question, we will find it. If you post the same question in several forums, we all know it's spam. You know it's spam. Don't spam.

If you are an experienced commenter here, let everyone know what you think of these to help them even more. Add some of your own.

If you are new, please use these to help yourself get better answers here.

 maybe people do not know but there's an Ai outthere that can summarize all the BP answer into one page. The prompt question is something like this "according to biggerpocket site, what is the best city for cash-flow in 2017 ?" ; make sure to use the "biggerpocket". So we no longer have to browse all the answers, been using it for a while now for almost everything. This thing already replaced google.

 Good tip.  Thanks.

[Kevin S.]

Quote from @FR W.:

I'm not sure why you posted F R A G I L E, but "do you" whatever it means. 

"You" took offense to what I said clearly since you came back and began your post with F R A G I L E.  I could have started this reply with C H I L D I S H but I didn't.  So, moving on. 

Those of you who have put yourselves on this pedestal because you spend so much time here posting and leaving clapback comments (that was your word, right?), that you've racked up so many votes from those who may not necessarily agree with what you've said, but are too afraid to challenge or add a different view of what you said, are most often the problem.  Your response to my take on your post is a perfect example.  I wasn't negating your post, I was only offering a different view... one that too many face and feel, yet one that not many will speak up on, again, because there are those with "bully" syndrome and this superiority complex who shut them down every time they ask a question. 

You're right, what some call business, I might find rude, because I don't think that there is EVER A TIME OR PLACE FOR RUDE. But there's always, always, always, time to HELP someone who needs it.

And those new investors asking for assistance, maybe they won't see your post with all that "helpful advice" as you call it, because you've posted it in one place - maybe they'll get on here and will be so overwhelmed at first, that they just won't know where to start;  maybe they won't know to jump on here and start searching; maybe they won't know that they have to come to the table with an offer of some kind of help TO GET HELP FIRST (by the way, if you're new and reading this, please know that everyone out there doesn't live in the land of, "If you want my help and advice, what will you do for me?" world - some people live genuinely in service to others and they want to help, without wanting anything in return); maybe the new investor won't know the right questions to ask or how much information they should have, or even HOW to formulate that information into a question worthy of "your" response.

So, I will repeat what I said initially, in case the folks in the back didn't see it the first time:  
Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned
investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness. Being offended or taken aback by
someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you
are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.
Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process. Please
be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as
seasoned as you might be. Your response just might be the final straw
in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what
others have successfully done before. Lead with kindness. Don't hide
behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not. What
you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the
question won't ask another... and that's not what we want. We're here
to help... not hurt or hinder.

Your wait is over...

 FRW, whoever you are you need to take the mentorship position.  Honestly.  Couldn't have said it better.  Somehow I get this feeling your response will not be well taken by the original contributor.  Just a hunch... 

[Kevin S.]

Quote from @Dan H.:

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Good post @Jonathan Greene!

My 2 gripes are: 

No simple thank you for advice that is insanely valuable

Everyone wants shortcuts and easy nowadays.....How many times do we hear - "Is there an App for ________?"

I think sometimes the newbies do not see the value of the information or offer of help.

there was a thread on starting on storage units by @henry Clark.  It had so much detail based on years of lessons learned.  The person the thread was primarily dedicated to simply was not following the advice accurately enough or being too lazy.  IMO the info that Henry presented in the thread could have formed the basis of a guru course worth thousands of dollars.  

just as the person it was directed to would not do what was requested, he also appeared to not fully value the great guidance offered.  

I recently was finishing a rehab that in terms of budget was my worst ever (not ideal at my experience level but shows even those with experience have learning opportunities) but was still feeling generous to a local newbie.  I told him what day I expected to finish the rehab and to contact me at that time and I would treat him to a burrito and beer to discuss local RE.  Note I have 8 digits of local RE and my net worth increases over 7 digits per year for at least the last handful of years.  If I judge my hourly on net worth, my hourly value is in excess of $500/hour.  He never contacted me.  When I was starting out I would have loved to have someone like me treat me to a lunch to discuss RE.  I would have placed the date on the calendar and on that date I would have inquired if the offer was still available and whatever date the experienced person had, I would have made sure I was available.  

I do not make such offers often and am surprised when someone does not make use of the offer.  At worst case, they would have gotten a free meal and beer for some time and if what we discussed had no value to them, they could ignore it.  Best case is they get a free meal and walk away with a lot of valuable information.  

some newbies will never not be newbies.  

 That is bad.  Some newbie make the rest look bad.  Please don't put every newbie in one basket.  I hope you can look past the bad ones.  Appreciate your contribution.

[FR W.]

Quote from @Kevin S.:

Quote from @FR W.:

I'm not sure why you posted F R A G I L E, but "do you" whatever it means. 

"You" took offense to what I said clearly since you came back and began your post with F R A G I L E.  I could have started this reply with C H I L D I S H but I didn't.  So, moving on. 

Those of you who have put yourselves on this pedestal because you spend so much time here posting and leaving clapback comments (that was your word, right?), that you've racked up so many votes from those who may not necessarily agree with what you've said, but are too afraid to challenge or add a different view of what you said, are most often the problem.  Your response to my take on your post is a perfect example.  I wasn't negating your post, I was only offering a different view... one that too many face and feel, yet one that not many will speak up on, again, because there are those with "bully" syndrome and this superiority complex who shut them down every time they ask a question. 

You're right, what some call business, I might find rude, because I don't think that there is EVER A TIME OR PLACE FOR RUDE. But there's always, always, always, time to HELP someone who needs it.

And those new investors asking for assistance, maybe they won't see your post with all that "helpful advice" as you call it, because you've posted it in one place - maybe they'll get on here and will be so overwhelmed at first, that they just won't know where to start;  maybe they won't know to jump on here and start searching; maybe they won't know that they have to come to the table with an offer of some kind of help TO GET HELP FIRST (by the way, if you're new and reading this, please know that everyone out there doesn't live in the land of, "If you want my help and advice, what will you do for me?" world - some people live genuinely in service to others and they want to help, without wanting anything in return); maybe the new investor won't know the right questions to ask or how much information they should have, or even HOW to formulate that information into a question worthy of "your" response.

So, I will repeat what I said initially, in case the folks in the back didn't see it the first time:  
Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned
investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness. Being offended or taken aback by
someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you
are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.
Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process. Please
be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as
seasoned as you might be. Your response just might be the final straw
in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what
others have successfully done before. Lead with kindness. Don't hide
behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not. What
you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the
question won't ask another... and that's not what we want. We're here
to help... not hurt or hinder.

Your wait is over...

 FRW, whoever you are you need to take the mentorship position.  Honestly.  Couldn't have said it better.  Somehow I get this feeling your response will not be well taken by the original contributor.  Just a hunch... 

:)

[FR W.]

Quote from @FR W.:

Quote from @Kevin S.:

Quote from @FR W.:

I'm not sure why you posted F R A G I L E, but "do you" whatever it means. 

"You" took offense to what I said clearly since you came back and began your post with F R A G I L E.  I could have started this reply with C H I L D I S H but I didn't.  So, moving on. 

Those of you who have put yourselves on this pedestal because you spend so much time here posting and leaving clapback comments (that was your word, right?), that you've racked up so many votes from those who may not necessarily agree with what you've said, but are too afraid to challenge or add a different view of what you said, are most often the problem.  Your response to my take on your post is a perfect example.  I wasn't negating your post, I was only offering a different view... one that too many face and feel, yet one that not many will speak up on, again, because there are those with "bully" syndrome and this superiority complex who shut them down every time they ask a question. 

You're right, what some call business, I might find rude, because I don't think that there is EVER A TIME OR PLACE FOR RUDE. But there's always, always, always, time to HELP someone who needs it.

And those new investors asking for assistance, maybe they won't see your post with all that "helpful advice" as you call it, because you've posted it in one place - maybe they'll get on here and will be so overwhelmed at first, that they just won't know where to start;  maybe they won't know to jump on here and start searching; maybe they won't know that they have to come to the table with an offer of some kind of help TO GET HELP FIRST (by the way, if you're new and reading this, please know that everyone out there doesn't live in the land of, "If you want my help and advice, what will you do for me?" world - some people live genuinely in service to others and they want to help, without wanting anything in return); maybe the new investor won't know the right questions to ask or how much information they should have, or even HOW to formulate that information into a question worthy of "your" response.

So, I will repeat what I said initially, in case the folks in the back didn't see it the first time:  
Whether asking a question as a new investor or answering as a seasoned
investor, ALWAYS lead with kindness. Being offended or taken aback by
someone's rude response, is not a sign of "fragility," it says that you
are one who would never respond so rudely to someone's simple question.
Stepping into these waters is already an intimidating process. Please
be mindful of the way you respond to questions from those who are not as
seasoned as you might be. Your response just might be the final straw
in someone's attempt to change their life for the better by doing what
others have successfully done before. Lead with kindness. Don't hide
behind a rude response as a way of helping, because you're not. What
you're doing in that moment is ensuring that the person asking the
question won't ask another... and that's not what we want. We're here
to help... not hurt or hinder.

Your wait is over...

 FRW, whoever you are you need to take the mentorship position.  Honestly.  Couldn't have said it better.  Somehow I get this feeling your response will not be well taken by the original contributor.  Just a hunch... 

:)

Kevin, I posted a nice and more detailed response for you here but what do you know, it mysteriously disappeared.  Thanks for your kind words.  Keep standing up for the underdog.  Somebody's got to do it :)

[Kevin S.]

@FR W.

Jonathan expects others to read his long post but responding yours' with 'TLDR'.  

[Dan H.]

Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

Quote from @Mike Dymski:

Unfortunately, most of the questions asked illustrate little to no advance work (#1 and #4).  That is not a newbie, it's a neverbie.  I'm not saying this to be condescending.  It's just reality...if we can't read a couple of books, listen to podcasts, or perform basic searches in advance and then ask better questions, there is no way in heck we are going to buy a property.  

Lack of available information is not what prevents us from doing stuff...information is everywhere (school, books, podcasts, webinars, forums).  Lack of persistence/effort/need does.

“If more information was the answer, then we'd all be billionaires with perfect abs.”
― Derek Sivers

I've always said the worst question a real estate investor can get from someone looking to invest is, "How do I become a real estate investor?" This shows you want the shortest short-cut and don't want to do any work. Also, you will never do what we tell you to do because it's hard, not easy, so...

My son who 1) is not stupid, he is graduating from UCSB next month 2) has been around my rentals and me his entire life 3) in high school had a fairly successful handyman business with a dozen part-time employees, indicated he wanted to be a real estate investor.   I asked what that meant and he said like you do.  I asked what he thought I do and he indicated you buy, fix up, and rent units.  I asked how he was going to purchase a property.  He had no idea what was required.  He did not know about low cost options or raising money.  He knew little of loans.  I told him if he thought Cutco sales was difficult he was in for an awakening trying to raise money without a track record of success.  I asked what he knew about local LL laws and more incorrect than correct info was his response. 

To be a successful RE investor requires a fair amount of knowledge.  I see absurd maintenance/cap ex numbers from a majority of RE investors (even those with modest experience).  I seldom see new investors that understand finance options available and the pros/cons of each.  Very few newbie investors are aware of value add opportunities other than rehabs.   Many newbies do not do basic underwriting.   If rent is greater than PITI, they believe they have a cash flow positive property.  

I recognize there is a lot to learn to being a successful RE investor (or in recent times they can get lucky due to a crazy RE market).  I, therefore, take no offense at the question but I also realize there is no way I can answer the question for them.  There are many RE books that usually cover a single RE investment concept.  There is no way anyone can answer the question without simply referencing many sources of information.  

I we were all newbies at some time. Most of the mistakes above I made. I did no underwriting. I did not know of BRRRR but did my first few brrrrs before I knew there was a name for it. House hacking was owning with roommates. I had no concept of actual maintenance/cap ex costs. Value add was paint, flooring and a little gardening (as though that would add much value). I had no idea of effort required on a brrrr.

today I had a tenant claim I had to give him 3 months notice (I gave him 2 months notice but was only required to give one month notice).  It is important to know the laws as tenants will say anything they desire is the law. 

I want to be tolerant of newbies, even those that appeared to put forth no significant effort to self educate.  I recognize there is a lot to know. Being tolerant is not difficult.