@Jorge Vazquez I've done a scope on every property I've bought before closing...I'll never buy a property without a scope.
To me, a few hundred bucks to potentially save myself a $15-$30k capex (or more) is a no-brainer. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
...I've bought properties with bad sewer lines, but I KNEW what I was buying because of the scope, and I factored that in to my numbers and offer...without the scope, I would have no idea what I was buying, and I would've wound up with a significant unanticipated capex.
We inspect every other part of a property before buying. The sewer main is one of the most important, and most valuable parts of the property...so, why wouldn't we inspect that too?
A scope is especially important on properties where the sewer line would be particularly expensive to replace (for instance, if the sewer line replacement would require breaking up and re-pouring a driveway, or removing numerous mature trees--these things can cost significantly more money above and beyond the cost of replacing the sewer line). Additionally, a sewer line repair usually results in vacancy and lost rent--even more lost money.
A new driveway can easily cost $5k on the low end, and plenty of properties in my area have $15-$25k+ driveways. Removing mature trees can quickly spiral into thousands more, and if you want to replace those trees, thousands more again. Lost rent from vacancy could easily be several thousand...so, by time you add it all up, it's easily possible for a sewer line replacement to end up costing $40k+ if it involves those types of ancillary expenses.
To me, spending a few hundred bucks on a scope to prevent a $40k+ capex on a property worth over half a million is one of the easiest choices I make in the world of REI!
Good luck out there!
@Jonathan Greene great list, I agree 100%
Another newbie mistake: not thanking experienced pros who take the time to provide a detailed, well-written, experienced-based response to a newb question. I see this happening fairly often.
Even if you don't agree with what a pro is saying, at least thank them for their valuable time--that's just basic courtesy and professionalism!
We have pros on this forum whose time is objectively worth thousands, tens of thousands (or possibly even hundreds of thousands or more) per hour--based on their actual earnings, and who have decades of experience in REI!
Attorneys charge hundreds (or thousands) of dollars for every hour of their time, yet we have REI pros here whose time is objectively more valuable--and they're giving it away for free! The least newbies can do is thank these pros for their extremely valuable time--that's manners 101.
@Allen Bannister first off, I'm a HUGE proponent of house hacking with a 5% conventional mortgage--I've done it myself many times, and it's arguably the BEST way to get started in REI, so good choice! (I've written about the topic on the forums many times).
I also have personal experience rehabbing properties with structural issues (unfortunately).
I've bought and rehabbed properties in almost every condition imaginable, but I've never knowingly bought a property with significant structural issues--that's my one deal-breaker. I've bought properties that had structural problems that revealed themselves after I bought (which I had to fix)--and having gone through that process, I can tell you that I would never knowingly buy a property with structural issues (except in rare circumstances outlined below).
So, why am I willing to buy a property that's on the brink of condemnation, but I won't buy a property with significant structural issues?
Mainly, because structural issues can be a complete black hole of money, time, effort--and it can be very difficult (and costly) to anticipate just how much money, time, and effort they'll consume.
First, you'll need to figure out what's causing the structural issues--it could be settlement at the footers caused by ground water, it could be wood rot or termites in a beam, it could be masonry degradation caused by water coming off the roof, it could be improper drainage of the roof, it could be tree roots degrading the foundation, it could be a plumber who cut out a critical joist to install a line 20 years ago, it could be improper construction, it could be any or all of those things, and it could be any number of other potential causes. The point is: at this stage, you don't know what you don't know, and just figuring out the cause alone can take weeks, months or even years of your time (and a lot of money).
Assuming you figure out the cause(s) of the problem, then you'll have to figure out the solution. This can also easily turn into a complete rabbit hole--the solution might create new problems, or you may discover new problems in the process of finding the solution. Especially with older buildings, finding the cause of one problem often reveals other problems, and solving one problem often creates a new problem...it's sort of like a game of whack-a-mole. For instance, I was once thinking about buying a property that had a minor issue with a relatively easy solution, but then we learned from the City that implementing that solution would create a new problem that would have cost us $50k+ to address in order to retain a certificate of occupancy (I didn't know what I didn't know, but I'm glad I found out before I bought the property!). Again, the solution(s) may take months or even years to sort out.
During the process of figuring out the cause(s) of the problem and the solution(s), you'll be paying a structural engineer (and potentially other pros like hydrologists, framing experts, foundation pros, etc.). Those guys don't come cheap (I have them on my payroll--I know from experience. They are highly skilled, highly credentialed, and that means they're highly paid).
Depending on the cause(s) and solution(s) to the problem, the property may need to be vacated--now you've got an empty property that's bleeding cash, and not bringing in any rent. How long can your cash reserves tolerate that before you're bankrupt? ...if you have hundreds of thousands or millions in reserve, it might not be an issue ...but if you only have a few thousand, it will be a major problem.
Now, having said all that, there definitely are scenarios where a structural issue is an easy, relatively cheap fix. ...and, there are some examples of settlement that can be ignored--for instance, minor settlement on a 100 year old house is fairly common, and might not affect the structural integrity of the house.
But, again (assuming that you're not a structural engineer), you don't know what you don't know--it could be five hundred bucks and a weekend of work, or it could be a hundred thousand dollars, a year of your life, eight months of vacancy, and ultimately bankruptcy.
So, when would I knowingly buy a property with structural issues? Well, first of all, I'd wait until I had about ten to twenty years' experience rehabbing properties (including properties with structural issues)--which I have. I would NOT buy a place with structural issues for my first deal (that's like trying to surf a 50 foot wave before you know how to swim!).
Assuming I had the experience, I would only buy a place with structural issues if I had 1) an experienced and trusted structural engineer telling me a clear, and verifiable explanation of the cause(s) of the problem and a viable and affordable solution, 2) trusted and experienced tradespeople who would be implementing the solution (carpenter, mason, etc.) confirming with me that they could fix the issue (with 90% or higher confidence that the issue could be resolved within budget), and 3) confirmation from city inspectors that the issue (and an inability to fix the issue) would not result in condemnation/revocation of occupancy permits. ...and even then, I'd only proceed if I had the cash reserves to ride out a major series of unexpected problems (e.g.; time overruns, budget overruns, unexpected revocation of occupancy permits from the city, etc.)
To sum it up: at this stage, you don't know what you don't know--this could be an easy fix, or the path to bankruptcy. So, before you even think about pulling the trigger, you'll want to have a thorough understanding of what you're getting into.
Proper due diligence is what often separates the aspiring real estate investors who crash and burn on their first deal, and those who build a successful portfolio. Don't skimp on your due diligence (especially when it comes to structural issues).
Good luck out there!
Short answer: a sewer scope is ALWAYS worth it.
A couple hundred bucks to potentially save yourself tens of thousands, and weeks or months of lost time and vacancy? That's a no-brainer.
Plus, even if nothing's wrong, you'll learn about one of the most important parts of the property you're buying. A scope can show you all sorts of important things other than just whether the sewer line itself is in bad condition (it will show you the material of the line, junctions, turns, tree roots, settlement points, etc.--all of which can be useful info, because it will help you understand the potential causes of problems that occur in the future). If you're not a plumbing expert, hire a scope pro who understands plumbing and can walk you through everything (or have a trusted plumber watch the scope with you and explain it).
I once bought a property where the seller had just installed a brand new sewer line. Seller told me "there's no need to scope it, it's brand new!". I had my plumber scope it anyway. Sure enough, the line from the house to the street was brand new...but the line under the slab was 60+ years old, and it was fried. A $20k time bomb just waiting to explode. The only solution: jackhammer and remove the slab over the line, dig out old the line and install a new one, backfill it, re-pour the demo'd slab, and re-finish a substantial portion of the basement...needless to say, we got some real concessions from the seller before closing (to offset not just the cost of the new line, but also the downtime, holding cost, and vacancy that had to happen while the line was being replaced).
I never buy a property without doing a scope (and it's saved me many tens of thousands of dollars, and major headaches).
Good luck out there!
@Robert S. keep in mind that regardless of whether water came in through the crack, the window well should not be filling with water.
So, you have two problems to resolve--the crack, and the window well filling with water.
Even if you fix the crack, if the window well is still filling with water, it's going to cause problems.
So, you need to troubleshoot why the window well is filling with water, and fix that issue, in addition to the crack.
The water in the window well is either rain falling in from above, or it's ground water rising up from below, or it's a leaking water main/sprinkler line or other plumbing...or, it could be all three of those things, or any combination.
Good luck!
@Robert S.BTW, if you hire a mitigation company, they may charge a lot less for drying out a basement compared to drying out a basement AND mitigating mold. ...so, if you wait for mold to start, the cost of the mitigation company might be higher (I don't know this for sure, but it's worth looking into)...I've never hired a company to mitigate mold, but I've heard it can be very expensive.
When I was in your shoes, my top priority was getting the basement dry within 24 hours to prevent the mold, so I threw everything into getting that done ASAP.
Once it's dry, then you can take a breather, and take some time to figure out the cause and solution.
@Robert S. if it flooded on Saturday morning, you're already running out of time, unfortunately. You can read up on this online, but most sources say that mold begins to grow within 24-48 hours after flooding--so, if you wait until tomorrow, the mold is probably already starting.
Personally, I wouldn't wait for a restoration company to come 48+ hours after the the flood, only to charge me thousands (possibly tens of thousands) to do something I can do myself. When I had my flooding problems, I generally found that waiting around for mitigation companies, insurance companies, the city, etc to come and solve the problem was a waste of time (they usually took forever, the bureaucracy was a nightmare, and they often didn't provide very good solutions).
When my property flooded, I called all my friends and got to work on it immediately. Another option would be to hire some day laborers to help out.
As I mentioned, the work doesn't require much technical skill (and there are probably lots of useful how-to articles and videos online), it just requires a lot of muscle and physical labor--it's a job where many hands make for lighter work.
I'm in your area, so, after it's dried out, if you want me to come take a look and discuss the possible causes and solutions to prevent further flooding, dm me.
@Robert S. also, take plenty of photos/videos to document everything, and keep all receipts...you will probably need those items if you go to file claims with insurers/the home warranty company, etc.
Unfortunately, in my experience, getting home builders/warranty companies to take ownership of problems like this is often more trouble than it's worth...your mileage may vary....
@Robert S. sorry you're experiencing this--I've been in your shoes, and it's no fun.
Luckily, I have extensive experience with this type of issue (I learned the hard way when I bought a property that was basically built above a subterranean river that caused three basement floods in about six months!). Incidentally, the property I had that had this issue was also in Salt Lake City; so, I'm familiar with your area.
As you probably know, water in the basement will start to produce mold in about 24 hours, so your first order of business is to get the basement dry ASAP.
You can pay a flood mitigation company to do this, but it will be expensive. You can do it yourself; the process isn't terribly complicated and doesn't require much technical skill, but it is a lot of physical labor, and you'll probably want to get friends to help. You can find videos/articles online on how to get the basement dry, but the basic process is:
1) turn off all electric to the basement (to avoid electrocution from the water),
2) run pumps to get the standing water out of the basement (sounds like you're already doing this)
3) remove all furniture and items from the basement,
4) once you've pumped out the standing water from the basement, rent a wet/dry carpet cleaner/extractor from home depot, and use it to extract as much water as possible from the carpets (they'll be much lighter and easier to move once you get the water out).
5) After you've used the carpet extractor to get most of the water out of the carpet, remove all carpet and get it out of the house for drying (if you're trying to salvage the carpets), or throw the carpet out. If you're trying to salvage the carpets, you'll need to get them bone dry in under 24 hours to avoid mold--so, it's a race against the clock to get them dry fast. If you can get the carpets in direct sunlight, and under industrial-strength drying fans (more on that below), you may be able to get them dry. If it's still raining outside, if you can get the carpets in a garage and under industrial drying fans, you may still be able to get them dry.
6) if the water soaked any drywall, you'll need to cut that drywall out and throw it out.
7) rent a bunch of industrial drying fans from home depot/lowes (they are specifically designed to dry up houses that were flooded, and soaked carpet. They're usually blue, so they should be easy to spot at the home depot/lowes rental desk); put them throughout the previously flooded areas of the basement, and all around the soaked carpet you've removed (if you're trying to salvage the carpet). If you're trying to salvage the carpet, turn the carpet over once every 3ish hours, and keep the fans on the carpet for 24 hours until the carpet is bone dry.
8) rent an industrial dehumidifier from home depot/lowes, and run it in the basement for at least a day or two until the humidity of the basement is low. If the upper floors of the house seem humid, you may need to rent multiple dehumidifiers and run them throughout the house.
Follow these steps quickly, and if you can get the basement dry in under 24 hours, hopefully you can avoid mold. Home depot/lowes sells mold test kits you can use once the basement is dried out.
Once you have the basement dry, the next order of business is to figure out the cause(s) of the flooding, and hopefully address those causes to prevent future floods.
There are multiple potential reasons for your flooding--it could be ground water rising up from underneath the house, it could improper drainage around the house, it could be cracks in the foundation or slab, it could be water coming in through the window wells, it could be all of those things, or it could be something else entirely.
Once you know the reason(s), for the flooding, then you'll be able to figure out a solution.
I'd also strongly suggest that you don't re-finish the basement until you've determined the cause of the flooding and fixed the problem (last thing you want is to re-finish the basement, and have it all ruined again by another flood).
I'd suggest first watching some videos on youtube on flooding, drainage, groundwater, french drains, sump systems, water catchment systems, etc, just to give you a better understanding on what can cause flooding, and what types of fixes might work.
A few questions might help you figure out the cause:
How much rain (or snow melt) was there before/during the flooding?
Does your house have rain gutters, and if so, where are they draining to? Do they drain into the areas of the yard that are flooding? Do they drain into areas near the flooded window wells?
Are there slopes/hills that drain water towards your house? Is there a driveway/patio/other solid surface near your house that would drain water toward the house?
Is the water in the window wells rain water that's falling in from above, or is it ground water that's seeping up from below the window wells? (or perhaps both?)
Where does the water seem to be entering the basement? Is the water in the basement solely around the flooded window wells, or does it seem to be coming in from other spots? FYI: groundwater raises and lowers (it usually raises after periods of rain/snow melt), and if the slab of the house is too close to the water table--that is, if the slab is too low--ground water can rise, and seep up through the slab from underneath the house. Although this is probably less likely than the water leaking in through the window wells, it is possible, and you'll want to eliminate it as a cause of the flooding before deciding on how to fix the issue, because if it's groundwater, then the solution to the problem may be completely different than if it's water coming from other sources.
As you consider these questions, keep in mind that water follows the path of least resistance--for example, water will flow through a gravel-filled trench much quicker than through solid earth/clay. Obviously, water flows downhill. So, water will be attracted to areas that are porous and/or downhill. Keeping those principles in mind, you can better understand why the water is flowing into some places and not others, and from there you can design sump systems/french drains/water catchment pits/gutter systems, etc. to force water to flow away from your house (for instance, a french drain will attract water and carry it away from the house. A sump pit with lots of gravel surrounding the sump basin will attract water much quicker than a sump pit with less gravel around the basin. etc.).
When I had my flooding issues, I paid a hydrologist to come out and inspect the property and educate me on how water was moving around the property, and importantly, how water was moving underground near my foundation. It cost me a few hundred bucks, but it was money well-spent, because it helped me understand how to design the flood mitigation system...rather than approaching it via trial and error, I was able to build a flood mitigation system that worked the first time, and the house hasn't flooded since. The hydrologist was located in Salt Lake, so let me know if you want their contact...
Let us know if you have questions.
Good luck out there!
I still post all of our companies rentals on Craigslist and I love it! Sure the site is a little out-dated in appearance but it is so user-friendly and although it isn't my highest producing lead source, I do tend to get very strong leads from there and no spam so far.
Personally I truly hate using Apartments for posting any listings. We have a free plan so we can only post a few properties at a time and none with more than 5 units. Apartments for me, is not user friendly at all, it almost crashes every time I touch the unit photos, and it will approve my listing then deny and unpost it a week later. Their filter is way to strong as well as you cant say if a property is not accepting section 8 and can't use the word glass.
@Alyssa Wright I couldn't agree more...I find Apartments.com, Zillow, Rentler (all sites that are supposed to be tailor-made for real estate) to be very user un-friendly from the landlord side. Like you mentioned, frequent crashes, problems uploading photos, weird restrictions on what words can't be used, listings removed for no obvious reason. ....and, to me, the navigation/operation is very unintuitive and cumbersome. Plus, they all push you into using their tenant application systems, which are equally frustrating. ...I could maybe forgive these issues if I got tons of leads from these sites, but I don't get many leads at all (especially considering the prominence of a site like Zillow).
...all I want is a simple, streamlined, fast, easy to use site that produces lots of quality tenant applications, why is that so hard? Craigslist was that site for years, but I don't get many leads from there anymore
...oh well, guess I'm stuck using FB marketplace and the ol' "For Rent" sign in the yard...