All Forum Posts by: Travis West

@Andrew S.

You raise some good questions. Unfortunately, my background is in mechanical engineering and the questions you are posing are ideally for some with a chemical engineering background.

MIXING SOAP AND BLEACH

You thoughts on using soap with bleach make sense ... but I have always learned to work on the KISS principle. Mixing soap (which is a chemical) with bleach (which is also a chemical) could create some other "unknown and uncontrolled" substance that could be extremely harmful to products or people. Now you'd ask me ... which products? Which soaps, etc.? I can't tell you exactly. I can only speculate because I don't recommend it and I don't do it. Just know that the compounds in dish soaps vary from brand to brand. Consequently, the "chemical soup" that you'd create by mixing one brand with bleach would likely be very different than the soup you'd create when mixing bleach with another brand.

PROBLEMS CAN HAPPEN

I can offer this one example that a peer related to me a couple of years ago. His instructions to a maintenance engineer in a very large building was to use bleach to clean some very contaminated metal pipe fittings. These fittings were under the sink in a 30 story office building. He directed the engineer to wet a rag with a bleach/water solution and wipe the piping clean. They were trying to eliminate the possibility of bacteria from a previous leak under the sink. As I understood it, the directions to the engineer on the product and method were very specific. Now, knowing that bleach was good, and realizing also that ammonia is used as a disinfectant, the engineer was ready to mix them together and clean the piping. Fortunately, my friend revisited the building about 5 minutes before the engineer began his mixing/cleaning process. Had this mixture NOT been avoided, it would likely have killed or severely impacted every person on the 18th floor and may have affected others on adjoining floors. These 3 floors had about 400 people on them.

My point here is that I (personally) and most of my peers - choose to avoid the use of harmful chemicals at any point possible. Sure, you and your closest 50 friends are not harmed by exposure to bleach. What if you opened a bottle and started using it when that one person (in 50) who WAS reactive was nearby?

THE USE OF OXIDIZERS

Using bleach will (almost) always leave a residual. That residual produce can continue to cause oxidation to occur on metal surfaces, electrical wiring, galvanized studs, nails, etc.

Using hydrogen peroxide doesn't leave a residual. I can not explain the chemical process, but that is what has been explained, demonstrated, and drilled into me by countless educators.

Using bleach to "kill mold" usually means that the user plans to saturate a surface with bleach. Saturating a surface with a mixture of water and sodium hypochlorite REALLY sounds to me like they are going to "saturate the surface." That's why we don't like the use of bleach.

The use of soap and water asks the user to saturate the rag and wring it out. Next, you wipe the surface, turn the rag to a clean location, wipe the surface, turn the rag, wipe the surface, etc. The purpose of soap and water is NOT to saturate the walls. Rather, the soap increases the surfactantcy of the water (makes it wetter) and that allows a damp rag to better pick up mold spores, hyphal fragments, mold pieces, etc. Hence, this is the more effective method. It removes the mold better and does not saturate the wall.

SURFACTANTCY TIPS

Although this is not the purpose of my whole response, I'd like to share a brief tip that I learned from a painter years ago. It involves a BETTER METHOD to remove latex paint from brushes, rollers, and other paint tools when you're done for the day.

1) buy some liquid fabric softener

2) pour about 1/2 a cup into a 2-3 gallon pail of water

3) place your "paint loaded" brush into the water solution

4) actively move your brush to agitate the water for 10-20 seconds

5) remove your brush and briskly shake it to remove the water

6) note that there is NO paint left in or on your brush

NOTE: This is because the fabric softener dramatically increases the surfactantcy of the water. It makes the size of the water droplets dozens (or maybe hundreds) of times smaller. These smaller water droplets do a much better job cleaning your brush and help to remove paint in the smallest recesses of the brush, roller pad, etc. The embedded latex paint doesn't stand a chance when confronted with these hyper-small water droplets.

SURFACTANTCY WORKS FOR MOLD TOO

So my point in the surfactantcy example above is that when you use dish soap (which also increases the surfactantcy of water) you are able to pick up MORE of the smaller mold compounds (spores, hyphal fragments, etc.) without using a lot of "liquid live water" and without saturating the wall - as you do with bleach. This is why soap and water works so well. It's designed to remove mold without using a lot of water!

_________________

As I said earlier, I advise AGAINST anybody creating custom compounds by mixing soap and bleach. This is because I am not a chemical engineer and because I do not know what new (and potentially dangerous) compounds you might be creating.

_________________

Besides, my professional liability insurance does not cover me for suggestions outside of my professional training.

Travis West

Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant - CIEC #0609003; Board Certified by the American Council of Accredited Certification

Licensed Mold Assessment Consultant; MAC0325; Texas Department of State Health Services

hi Jerry.

The meeting went well. We all made some new acquaintences.

There were ten of us. We had one of the cabanas on the rooftop and we were all able to introduce each other and talk about our investment needs.

We will probably try to do our next one in January.

Travis

@Karen Margrave.

Although there are different types (genus and species) of molds, the methods to manage or remove them do not vary. In fact, regardless of the type of mold we see, we use similar methods to get rid of them.

WHAT ABOUT DIFFERENT MOLD TYPES

Toxic black mold is all the rage. Everybody seems to fear that. They don't seem to have the same level of concerns when it's grey or green, fuzzy or not. But the facts are that ALL MOLDS create toxins. These toxins are generated by the mold as a defense mechanism. Some molds even create the toxins to kill other molds ... thereby allowing them to invade the 2nd mold's territory. (Yes, I'm saying that molds even value the real estate held by it's peers!) Some people claim that the toxins from Stachybotrys (black) mold affect their central nervous systems, making them sick. But, when you find Stachybotrys molds, you also find many, many other types as well. Who knows which toxins are affecting people.

MOLD REMOVAL

The method to remove molds varies by the total area affected - not by the genus or species of mold present. Small areas can be easily wiped away and treated. Larger areas might need to be cut out. Even large ones require containment (plastic walls) and expensive equipment designed to capture airborne spores.

An example might be: 45 sq. ft of mold along a perimeter wall (dining room, living room wall adjoining the outside of the house). This type of damage would likely require setting up a containment, placing that containment under a negative pressure (to capture spores and dust during demo) and doing a controlled demolition - usually by professionals.

In contrast, a small area of perhaps 4 sq. ft. may only require that you wipe the mold colonies (fuzzy stuff) away from the surface and treat with Kilz or similar paint. It may not even require removing any drywall.

NOTICE: These procedures are the same whether the 45 sq.ft. of mold was black, brown, green, grey, red or yellow.

TESTING THE AIR - BEFORE OR AFTER

There is really only one reason you'd need to test before you tear out mold damage. That would be if you think a tenant is going to an attorney. Then, you might want specific mold genus information for your defense (in the future). In fact, in those types of cases, we usually recommend that consultants (who do the testing) be hired by your attorney. That way the results are protected by the Attorney/Client privilege.

If you do any remediation/tear-out, testing can confirm that the air is clean (after the work is done). People who choose to do the work themselves, can often cause more problems by not properly containing the molds during tear-out. Post work air testing can confirm whether it's been done right or not.

Yes, there are advantages to using a consultant who specializes in mold. They carry general and professional liability insurance. That means that if they "miss the mark" in their estimation or they "misdiagnose" any part of your project, you have a way of recourse. You should never sue your helpful, friendly, knowledgeable, and sometimes w.o.r.d.y. mold consultant, but they have insurance ... just in case you do.

STATE STANDARDS

Some states license consultants and remediators. Most don't. Some states require that these companies ONLY have a business license. You'd have to check with your local (county) or state health department to make sure.

States that have some measure of guidelines include Texas, Florida, and New York. While I know that a number of states are trying to come up with licensing guidelines, I do not stay up to date on which states or when.

DISCLOSURES

Many state real estate boards have a mold disclosure form. When listing a home with a real estate agent, one of the questions that must be asked is whether there was a mold problem. If the homeowner (seller) says yes, then the real estate agent must bring out that disclosure form which must be completed. That then becomes part of the sales documents.

INSURING A MOLD HOME

In Texas (which is the only state I have knowledge of) there is a special MDR-1 form created by the Department of Insurance. When a mold remediation job is done, that form is completed by the mold consultant and the remediator and clearly states that; a) mold was found, b) a scope to remove it was created, c) it was removed consistent with the aforementioned scope, and d) the mold problem and the reason it occurred (roof leak, plumbing leak, condensation, etc.) has been repaired. Once the MDR-1 form has been signed by the mold professionals, that's given to the homeowner. That single - signed - form is designed to guarantee that the home cannot be denied insurance because of prior mold problems.

I don't know if other states have this option or not.

I hope that helps.

Travis West

CIEC (Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant); American Council of Accredited Certifications
MAC0325 (Licensed Mold Assessment Consultant; Texas Department of State Health Services)

@Simon Campbell.

Spraying any solution onto a reservoir of mold spores is one more of those things that we (you) should never do. While some portion of the spores do get wet and perhaps die, the spraying action causes many of those spores to become airborne ... only to move on to another surface.

If you can imagine what the spores would do if you chose to spray them with compressed air - then you can imagine how much the same thing would occur by spraying a water solution on the surface.

Sure, some of the spores do get wet, but many more (and remember that spores are too small to see with the naked eye) become airborne.

The solution (as I referenced in the EPA document) is to wet a rag, wipe the surface, turn the rag, wipe the surface, turn the rag, etc. Always wipe the surface with a clean portion of the rag, and rinse the rag out when it becomes dirty.

Travis West

@Pete Thomas, @Brandon Turner and @Sean Kuhn.

I have to agree with Sean on this one.

The use of bleach to disinfect mold contaminated areas is an old wives tale and is one that we in the Mold consulting community used to tell folks ... until we learned the truth.

Look at the contents of the bleach you buy in the store. It's about 3-5% sodium hypochlorite and 95-97% water. What we found was that while we did kill (maybe) 30% of the spores, we were putting water on the rest. Why in the heck would we want to put water on mold?!

There are a number of other products - and hydrogen peroxide is one of those - that will work much better.

The other thing to remember is that the sodium hypochlorite in bleach is an oxidizer. If used too heavily, you can cause rusting or other oxidation issues to electrical connections, wiring, etc.

If you follow some of the best guidance out there - provided by the US EPA - you will use a simple solution of mild soap (dish-soap) and water and lightly wipe the walls clean. After removing any hyphal discoloration, allow them to properly dry and then treat the walls with Kilz or Fosters brand antimicrobial paint. It's a good primer too!

I have run into mold remediation contractors all across the country who still use bleach on client projects. It's a hazard to the applicators, to the homeowners, and to the home's mechanical and electrical systems. Normally, when we find a remediator who uses bleach, we know that they are not "up to speed" with the latest and best techniques. In fact, we often consider them the type of people to avoid when we want the job done correctly (and safely).

Just my 2 cents worth!

Travis West

CIEC (Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant); American Council of Accredited Certifications
MAC0325 (Licensed Mold Assessment Consultant; Texas Department of State Health Services)

Hiya @michael young. You betcha' they are.

We all started sometime and my partner and I aren't that far from being new.

Come on out and let's get to know each other.

Travis

Hi Jerry.

We're going to be there from 6 pm till 8:30 or so.

Travis

I am sharing this invitation for a first-ever Unofficial Bigger Pockets meeting for North Side investors in the Houston, Conroe, Spring, Willis, Montgomery, Magnolia, Tomball and North Houston areas. This invitation is only going to BP members and is an opportunity for each of us to meet and network with others involved in this fast, challenging, and ever-changing business.

We are meeting next Wednesday, the 20th of November at Crush Wine Lounge, 20 Waterway Avenue, in The Woodlands. We plan to be on the rooftop overlooking the Waterway - unless bad weather sends us into the indoor bar.
We aren’t planning any presentations or speakers so this is a networking-only meeting. Interested parties or groups can even breakaway for dinner later in the restaurant.

We hope you can make it!

Travis West

If you're investing in North Houston, Conroe, Tomball, Spring, The Woodlands, and other North-side areas ... then you will likely be interested in this!

Mark your calendar for Wednesday, November 20th.That's when we are launching a BP North Houston Area Meetup. Created to bring like-minded members of Bigger Pockets together in a "networking only" event. This first event is scheduled in The Woodlands, with future events (January) coming to a different North-side location.

This is a non-pressure event where we can meet new friends, make new contacts, and maybe even work some deals. Heck! We can even talk about Josh Dorkin if we run out of other stuff!

The meeting is being held at Crush Wine Lounge, 20 Waterway Avenue, in The Woodlands. Meeting starts at 6 pm and we will be on the open-air rooftop (enjoying the views) unless it's raining. In that case, we'll be one floor down in the bar!

Join the Meetup HERE.

Dave.

The presence of a black colored mold is not really the issue.

A basement full of green, gray, or blue fuzzy mold can be just as harmful as the black stuff. All molds create toxins - to combat other molds that might "invade their turf." The poor sad black stuff has gotten a bad name by the press. It is no worse or no better than many of the others.

Just because it isn't black does not mean that you don't need to respect it and be cautious when removing it.

Travis West

CIEC (Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant)

MAC0325 (Licensed Mold Assessment Consultant, Texas Department of State Health Services)