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All Forum Posts by: Tom O.

Tom O. has started 10 posts and replied 208 times.

Quote from @Joe Villeneuve:

Refinancing isn't pulling out cash free.  Also, you're only accessing part of the equity,...and, since the principal on the new loan will be higher with the refi, your mortgage payment will also be higher, so your CF will go down.

Refinancing isn't the same thing as selling.  Refinancing is only a linear return, selling is an exponential return. I'm looking at a spread sheet I use to show this to my students, and the difference over time is quick, is rather large.


Quote from @Joe Villeneuve:
Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

Totally agree with having both, that's IMO a balanced investment. But why would you sell a property that is performing well? Amongst other issues selling will cost you at least 6%. And then you have to find another one, 1031 etc. If the asset continues to perform well, why would you sell it, like.. ever?

And to clarify, you are leaning heavey towards cash flow? If your trigger point is to accumulate CF to match your original cash outlay (buy+rehab). If you have a unit that cashflows $200 per month, $2400 per year it takes 10-30 years to get there depending on how much you originally spent. Whereas, if appreciation just follows inflation (no real gain) you reach your equity goal within 10 years, at the moment more like 3-5 years.

In either case, it takes time. If a new investor wants to get started and use cash flow as a propellant to grow, it has to come from somewhere else and not from the first property they bought.

A property that is gaining equity isn't performing well, it's losing value.  Your assumption that gained equity defines a performing property is wrong.  It's actually the opposite.  Let's look at the numbers:
1 - Property bought at $100k, paid 20% DP ($20k) cash = 20%/$20k equity.
2 - Property gains $20k in value, and thus $20k in appreciation.  New PV is $120k, and new equity is $40k.  Sounds good, right?  Wrong.  You think you gained $40k in equity, but you really doubled the cost of the property from $20k to $40k.
3 - With new values, you are paying $40k for a property worth $120k,...that's a 3 to 1 ratio.  You started with a 5 to 1 ratio.
4 - Sell that property and that $40k in equity, the same equity, now goes back to a 5 to 1 ratio, and buys you a property worth $200k.  That's an $80k difference/loss.
Notice I didn't mention the paydown, that's because I don't count it in the new equity.  This paydown is usually enough to cover the closing costs.

In my experience, it takes between 3 to 7 years for the CF to payback my costs, and the equity to double.

I never said this happens overnight.  Of course it takes time, but not that much time, and as you continue to move your equity forward as it grows, you are gaining an exponential return, not a linear one.

 Why would you sell, tho, if you can merely refinance and pull out your equity cash free? 

The investors I know that have hundreds of units with portfolios worth in the hundreds of millions NEVER sell. They repay the investors with a refinancing event in five years or whatever the time frame is. That way the pay the investors back with all or most of their money while their investment carries on and they use that money to invest in another deal. 

But the main point is a good one: I keep buying for cash flow but I keep putting the cash flow back into building upgrades, push up the rents, and the appreciation has been astounding. I'm about to refinance one deal and get my entire downpayment out. I refinanced a different building and bought another building with the proceeds.

This is the magic of Real Estate. You own an asset and it's appreciation with a downpayment of only a fraction of its price. Essentially, 80 percent of your appreciation is on an asset that the bank owns. 

Post: Multifamily insurance agents in Chicago

Tom O.Posted
  • Chicago
  • Posts 212
  • Votes 163

What insurance company did you get? How many units is this for? I'm having trouble with the larger over five unit buildings

Same story as many are telling: no claims but being non-renewed anyway by a company that apparently only wants new construction. Broker found a new insurance company at twice the price. 

I'm willing to consider replacement cost or actual value. 

Who can provide me an insurance quote? 

The building is in Kouts, Indiana, which is just south of Valparaiso. Nice, rural area. No crime. 

Thankis.

Post: Multifamily insurance agents in Chicago

Tom O.Posted
  • Chicago
  • Posts 212
  • Votes 163
Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:

I've never heard of HomeSite @Adam Kraft, but maybe it's a good thing!

I will shoot you a PM with my broker's details!  

Out of curiosity, which neighborhood is the property, and how is it performing?


 can you send it to me as well? thanks

Post: HELP: Just got renewal rejected on a 4-unit building

Tom O.Posted
  • Chicago
  • Posts 212
  • Votes 163

Well, it turns out my insurance broker who can write nationally found me a new insurer who is half the price of the old one. Only $1500 a year for a four-unit building. BUT, I had to put on a new roof which I didn't think I needed. Turns out, I was wrong there also. It totally needed a new roof due to the flashing being installed poorly. And, hell, the old aluminum siding looked like crap so I replaced it and the gutters. All for $20k.

Quote from @Simone Litsch:

would it make sense to rent to long term tenants? your expenses seem way too high. 

This would be my suggestion as well. Does it even break even as a long term rental? 

It's furnished though so maybe you should look at travel nurses or corporate mid term rental. 

Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:

Chicago Latin Kings are no joke @Tom O.!  Neither is 25 doors in 4 years!

Keep it up, brother!


 Thanks. It's been fun/interesting/profitable. 

Quote from @Rene Hosman:

@Tom O. & @Jacopo Iasiello did y'all use the link to apply?! I have no decision power but hope you hear your stories!


 OK, i officially "applied."