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All Forum Posts by: Bill P.

Bill P. has started 6 posts and replied 367 times.

Post: Pinnacle Development Partners, LLC

Bill P.Posted
  • Investor | Syndicator | Instructor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 435
  • Votes 197

Taxum and others-

We are not a country based on fairness, we are a country based on laws. While the below definition is not necessarily applicable in the current Pinnacle situation, the concept you are speaking about is called "avoidance". In bankruptcy law, generally the following is true:

A trustee or a debtor in possession has "avoiding" powers, which may be used to cancel a transfer of money or property made during a certain period of time prior to the filing of the bankruptcy petition. This "avoidance" of a particular transfer by a trustee, may force the return of the payments or property tranferred, for the benefit of all creditors. As a general rule, the power to avoid transfers is effective against transfers made within 90 days prior to the filing of the bankruptcy petition. If the transfers involved insiders, which include relatives, general partners, directors or officers of the debtor, the trustee or debtor in possession may "avoid" or cancel such transfers if they were made up to one year prior to the bankruptcy filing.

I hope this adds a little clarity on the situation. And the clock is ticking from the day the original people received their funds, not the day Mr. Hays stepped in.

Post: Pinnacle Development Partners, LLC

Bill P.Posted
  • Investor | Syndicator | Instructor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 435
  • Votes 197

As for my email: it's my username at gmail.com. Sorry, for any confusion. [email protected]

Post: Pinnacle Development Partners, LLC

Bill P.Posted
  • Investor | Syndicator | Instructor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 435
  • Votes 197

I hope this is read in the same spirit in which it is being written. As I once said, I have been reading this forum almost from the beginning. The sense of profound helplessness is overwhelming. The receiver’s first interim report gave an initial inventory of the assets and unfortunately it was not the most uplifting event for anyone. I have brought this situation to some other principals of my firm and we have brainstormed all week thinking on how we could help (if at all possible) soothe this terrible injustice. We have several ideas, including just let things unfold at the rate they currently are; but being an eternal optimist, I believe there is a solution that can be positive for everyone. Before I go on, you need to understand many things. 1) I am simply gathering input to see if our ideas would be acceptable to a majority of readers as a statistical sample. 2) There are many state and federal security laws that must be addressed. 3) No discussions have transpired with the receiver at this point and before any plan is placed in motion (if any), the receiver’s/court’s permission will have to be given. 4) Legal issues need to be resolved regarding ourselves as a successor company (We are not going to be involved with a battle with lawyers and regulators over problems that occurred before our watch) 5) Nothing said here is put in stone, as everything is in flux. The total assets and liabilities of Pinnacle are unknown at this time so nothing can be into motion yet, and may not be able to for the unforeseen future (if at all). With that said here are our thoughts on this matter:

Some of the problems that occurs with large financial fiascos is the fact that once discovered, a lot of funds are unaccounted, professional fees and the “fire sale” of assets eat away at the remaining funds, and the timing of a payout is unknown as litigation can cause it to be delayed, to mention a few. One of our solutions that addressed these issues worked like this: Assuming there are $66 million in investor funds backed by $26 million in “true assets”, that would be about 40% of value. For each $5,000 of investment that was made you would receive an initial ledger amount of $2,000 and paid 7% annually (paid quarterly) on that amount PLUS accrue interest at the rate of 10%. We can afford to do this because we can treat the entire $26 million as one big inflow of funds and we feel that we can generate 20%+ on this amount of funds giving our firm at least 3% of positive margin spread. (20% - (7% + 10%)). And because the 10% is a non-cash item until maturity, we have the liquidity to take our time and sell and deploy the current assets into the market. Sometimes timing is everything. As an ongoing business, we would also deploy the cash into assets that earn more than the current rate of return. All of these things taken together, make our job formidable, but within our risk parameters. It may take as long as 7 years but current income will be generated for the investors and everyone can be made whole over time. This description of the above process glosses over the details, the accounting issues, etc., but is does represent the thrust of the process.

Why would we do this? Many reasons. 1) We are genuinely good people and like to lend a hand where possible. We all believe in the “pay it forward” process of life. 2) We gain possibly 2000 new customers of which we hope a majority think positively of us after this ordeal is over. 3) Publicity and word of mouth could increase our business in other cities. 4) New city entry with ready made real estate, cash and a going concern business. 5) Quick infusion of assets offsets long period of acquisition through normal channels. 6) We believe we can make substantial money for ourselves over time.

Again, all of this is just at the embryonic stage at our firm. We may find after closer inspection that it becomes a regulatory nightmare to take over Pinnacle’s mess or you, the reader, do not want to be involved with another real estate company. But to start this process, I would like for you to email me at gmail.com with a general “Yes” or “No”, how much invested, what state you live in. (Of course, you may PM me if that is easier for you.) None of these answers will hold you to any performance of any kind. They merely give us a sampling of the prevailing attitude, the amount associated with the attitude, and the state which is important to ascertain the security law issues with our plan. I will tabulate the amounts and report them on 11/20/06 which gives 2 weeks for people to send me their inclination. And remember, this is all speculation at this time, so I am not going to answer specific questions with specific answers as that would be premature at this juncture.

(We will also be open to receiving your thoughts on how an investment plan of this magnitude could be made better for the investor, but we will solicit that information after we can ascertain if we are moving forward at all.)

Post: Pinnacle Development Partners, LLC

Bill P.Posted
  • Investor | Syndicator | Instructor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 435
  • Votes 197

It appears that things have changed into a positive bias. That is certainly great news. While it may take a while for the payouts, at least Mr. Hays and his company took immediate action which seems to be fortunate for everyone. Hopefully, the return of funds will approach the aggregate principal and lost funds will be kept to a minimum...... Good job Mr. Hays.

Post: Pinnacle Development Partners, LLC

Bill P.Posted
  • Investor | Syndicator | Instructor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 435
  • Votes 197

Anonyc-

Right you are. Delayed and lost are not the same. I have to believe the swift action of the SEC might have saved the day. However, I would believe that the bulk of the funds you are going to receive are frozen at the bank. All of the other assets that have been purchased take extra time to liquidate and never come close to 100% after discounted auction sale and fees. It would be nice to know what the entire amount of inflow was to Pinnacle and how much is frozen in liquid form (ie, bank accounts). That way people could feel better about the situation and know where they stand. Mr. Hays, if you are reading this, it would be great if a preliminary figure could be mentioned. I am sure the anquish Pinnacle has caused is probably causing marital rifts and thoughts of a dark nature. Perhaps you can give the Pinnacle investors some hope.

As far as class action suit, it will certainly happen, but watch the amount of fees the lawyers and accountants eat from that pie. See Enron, Worldcom, and anything else you can think of for a precedent

Post: Pinnacle Development Partners, LLC

Bill P.Posted
  • Investor | Syndicator | Instructor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 435
  • Votes 197

Guys, I truly appreciate your candor in letting me in on your mindset when you were researching Pinnacle. The strange part of this whole episode is that we were considering placing a much smaller ad in national publications to direct people to our company AND we were in negotiations with two property manangement firms to rent space for our office in Atlanta, as an expansion city. When we saw the Pinnacle ad, we were blown out of the water, for obviously three reasons. 1- They stole our thunder by placing a much larger ad in a national pub, 2- The rate of return was higher than any of our programs had ever been (made us feel like we must be working hard and stupid); and 3- They were already in Atlanta and we didn't want to seem to be a "copycat".

As far as the comment concerning growing 2000 investors using great business practices; I don't believe in can be done. I think 9 - 12 - 15% is not enough to catch the eye of normal people. I say this because we have tried for a number of years using a no pressure methodology and we have a high success rate for the people that actually call us, but I can't see the day where I would get an influx of 1000 - 2000 new investors in a few months. (However, we were hoping that our ad would increase call traffic and, hence, our new investors, but never could we imagine the growth Pinnacle had)

Next, this is to the comments on BBB, bank references, etc. for methods to check up on a company. Most of these organizations are financed by the people that they report. You buy your membership into the BBB based upon employees, gross sales or the type of business you are, depending on what part of the country you are in. So when I tell people that we are members of the BBB, the only thing that really tells you is that I have paid a fee to say I am a member of the BBB. But just by saying I am a member, it lulls a lot of people into a false sense of security. Even by asking about complaints doesn't really mean anything in a non-consumer arena, because most people that have complaints anymore, do not call to complain and if they do, there is a procedure to rectify the situation and not have any bad marks on the company's file.
My Dun and Bradstreet account was set up by our firm paying $500 +/-. A bank reference is worthless becasue of privacy laws.( and guess who will get sued if they say the wrong thing.) Chamber of Commerce is like the BBB. Etc., etc., etc.

As a reference point, credit bureaus are suppose to be properly reporting personal credit. However, a recent study says 1 in 3 reports have a major error in them. 4 in 5 have a reporting error in them. Why would their information be worth anything with that many errors? But that doesn't change the banks opinion on using them. Oh, as a sidenote, in my personal Experian file, I am deceased.

What I am trying to say is that even if you use the best traditional checking, you are still flying blind. Newsweek doesn't owe a fiduciary responsibility to its readers. It's just an ad. They owe a higher duty to their stories which they have to make sure are printed "without malice". If they make a mistake, thet can just decide to say "I'm sorry" and/or print a retraction.

Lastly, at which point do the actual investors owe a duty to themselves to tiptoe into the water. I can see a number of people losing $5,000 to $25,000 because of Pinnacle's reported minimum investment; but why would someone write a check for 6 digits and sometimes even without any paperwork?

In closing, I hope the comments keep coming because I have already got a new sense of understanding from the frst two responses. But answer me this, and be honest: "Wouldn't you have just passed right by our firm also if we were only offering 12%?".

Post: Pinnacle Development Partners, LLC

Bill P.Posted
  • Investor | Syndicator | Instructor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 435
  • Votes 197

Please excuse this post as I am sure it is going to upset some people. I have been reading this forum topic nightly since page 3. (I just joined today) I am amazed with everything that has transpired on this forum. From the cheerleaders in the beginning to the lynch mob mentality currently riding high, this entire Pinnacle mess is unbelievable.

For me personally, it has zero impact as I never heard of Pinnacle until I saw the Newsweek ads either. I never invested, although I did try to get their paperwork, because I wanted to see what they were doing, especially if it was something I could read and learn. You see, I have a real estate firm (please don't ask as I am not looking for investors from this forum or website) that does well for me and my investors, but nothing like the claim in the ad. I was trying to do research because my investors were wondering why I could not give them "Pinnacle type" returns.

My heart goes out to any investor which lost money in this endeavor. No matter how much, it is a shame, and unfortunately, a matter that will take a while to unravel. However, here is my question to this forum:

As a businessman who has built a firm investing in real estate for myself and my investors over the last decade, I do not understand what it is that makes people choose one firm over another. Generally speaking, our investors have received 7 to 34 ANNUALIZED depending on the overall market, the interest rate environment, cost containment and even a liitle luck. And I am always aware that past performance does not guarantee future results, so we work damn hard for our company, and hence, our investors. But we speak to so many people and so many of them pass on the opportunity even though every project is fully secured with the underlying property. The only thing we cannot offer is liquidity, and the only thing we will not offer, is a guarantee. (We can promise we will do our best)

What magic did the Pinnacle people use to get you to send them money. Was it simply the high rate? Nice brochures? Telling you what you wanted to hear? What? I ask this because I am trying to learn if I can use some of their magic but package it to promote legal real estate transactions. We are always registered where we need to be. Our investors always hold the first mortgage on the properties. We do everything right EXCEPT dazzle people to give us the money as easily as the Pinnacle group did.

2000 investors!!! What growth! Every businessman should be impressed with those numbers, I just don't know how it is always the "alleged crooks" that get it. (Of course, no true businessman would care for the end result)

In closing, I am sorry if this upsets anybody, but I would like to learn.