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All Forum Posts by: Robert M.

Robert M. has started 10 posts and replied 96 times.

Post: Would you put off retirement saving to buy real estate?

Robert M.Posted
  • Investor
  • Dundee, OR
  • Posts 99
  • Votes 158

Do not be in a hurry to buy a primary home. Unless you have a high income I would recommend the Roth instead of the 401K. Keep feeding the IRA, compounding interest is awesome. Speed kills!

Best of luck in your journey.

Post: Pros/Cons to paying off rental property early

Robert M.Posted
  • Investor
  • Dundee, OR
  • Posts 99
  • Votes 158
Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:
Originally posted by @Robert M.:

 Ask any investor who went broke in the 2008 crash. What went wrong?  Oh, and there was a LOT of them, most of which will never recover.  Debt = liability. I personally hate liability and want to pay my self the 5%  mortgage interest over the years, rather than the bank. I can come up with deductions other than mortgage interest. Once the properties are paid off I can owner finance to keep the income stream in my golden years or continue to collect rent without paying the bank first. If I wanted to be a BIG investor my strategy would be different. I just want about 5 paid for properties, that's all I need, the Roths will do the rest. Besides, about 5 paid for rentals is so much less work and stress than say 40 or 50. I guess im a dumb a$$ at math.

 Lost equity in a rental isn't a loss until you sell the property.  If  you don't need to sell the property, you didn't lose anything...yet.  I had rentals in 2008.  They dropped in value to the point I was upside down.  I didn't lose anything because I kept the property.  The equity I recovered, and sold the property at a profit some years later...and continued to cash flow the entire time.

When you pay down the debt using your cash, you are buying money at a cost much higher than the money you bought.  If I let the tenant pay off my debt, instead of me, I'm ahead.  If I come out of pocket to pay off my debt, then the cash flow I'm getting, even if it's double what I was getting before I paid off the debt, is just "catching me up"...not making me money.

Basic math:

Spend $16k on a down payment (20%) with a $700/month cash flow ($8400/yr) means I start making a profit in the 24th month.

Spend $90k cash on a property (100% payoff) with $1075/m ($12,900/yr) means it will take 7 years before I break even and make a profit.  During those 7 years, you can count on having to replace the roof, and other misc items like the floors, appliances, etc...  This means more out of pocket cash you need to catch up to before you make a profit.

The bottom line is this.  Any and all cash you spend, is negative.  Income is positive.  If you spend more cash than you get back in profit...you are losing money.

In addition, you are losing the compounding effect of what you could get in added profits by investing with those funds you are spending by paying off the mortgage.

I'm not going to disagree with your post, I have the spreadsheets that back it up. With that being said, it's not the way I want to invest in real estate, nor would I recommend to the original poster of this thread. I love paid for assets, it gives me true freedom. I don't want to wait 20 or 30 years for a paid for asset. Too much could go wrong in life and being leveraged only makes it more dangerous. At the end of the day, it is my dept and my responsibility, not my tenants. Inevitably I will get all my money back plus a handsome bonus. 

Post: Pros/Cons to paying off rental property early

Robert M.Posted
  • Investor
  • Dundee, OR
  • Posts 99
  • Votes 158
Originally posted by @Ben Wilkins:

@Robert M. - you had me until the last sentence.

There's a good argument to be made for both strategies - it all comes down to personal goals and preferences. Mathematically, one option is slower growth (which you agree to). The other option is safer and slower.

In answer to what went wrong - a lot of people didn't expect a crash, so they didn't keep reserves saved to protect themselves or their investments. This is why a lot of investors on here (if not all) will say that you should save 8% (or more) as a vacancy savings, 10% for CapEx, and 10% for Maintenance. Could there be another crash? Yes. Will my mortgage payments or expenses change? No. Will my income change? Maybe - but people need to continue living, and I would guess that my rental rates will stay similar to what they are now. I have no data to back that up, so now I'll have to go do some research as to what rent rates did during the 2008 crash. I personally don't seem to recall a drop in my own rental payments that I was making at the time, but I wasn't really paying attention.

If I assume that rent rates will stay the same, then I'm fine even if I have debt on fixed interest. If nothing else, I'll end up purchasing more properties for cheap and will love it.

The key is to have reserves, and I recall reading that the issue in 2008 was that investors were grabbing hand-over-fist and didn't bother to keep reserves. Because of that, they lost a lot.

Neither approach makes you dumb at math. One approach makes a lot of sense mathematically speaking, while another makes a lot of sense for ease of mind if you're inclined that way. Neither approach makes someone an idiot - it's just that some seasoned investors feel strongly that missed opportunities are a waste.

 Good points Ben. It's my opinion that most investors have little to no reserves, still.  There are so many new investors right now, due in part to cheap money and demand. Too many big hats with no cattle. Let's hope there isn't any economic correction any time soon. I hate sounding like a chicken little, but damn it, I'm going to have all my clothes on once the tide goes out. 

Post: Pros/Cons to paying off rental property early

Robert M.Posted
  • Investor
  • Dundee, OR
  • Posts 99
  • Votes 158

 Ask any investor who went broke in the 2008 crash. What went wrong?  Oh, and there was a LOT of them, most of which will never recover.  Debt = liability. I personally hate liability and want to pay my self the 5%  mortgage interest over the years, rather than the bank. I can come up with deductions other than mortgage interest. Once the properties are paid off I can owner finance to keep the income stream in my golden years or continue to collect rent without paying the bank first. If I wanted to be a BIG investor my strategy would be different. I just want about 5 paid for properties, that's all I need, the Roths will do the rest. Besides, about 5 paid for rentals is so much less work and stress than say 40 or 50. I guess im a dumb a$$ at math.

Originally posted by @Christian Hutchinson:

The SALT tax is a big middle-finger to people on the Coast, and Upper MW who live in Urban Areas (Chicago, MSP, Detroit, CLE, PITT, INDY).  Your average family of 4-5 has two income earners with a college education or a nice Union Job. They live in suburbs with nice school districts and homes cost $250-$600K their property tax bills are $4k-$15K a year. These people are not rich, they make $125K-$225K a year. They have state taxes of $3k-$10K a year, and some cases have local taxes thats $1K-$4K.

If your property values keep going up its like a double whammy, because every dollar over $10k is federally taxed, while more of your income is being taxed because of assessments.

The voting record in my state(Oregon) would suggest we/they are rich. Property taxes in my area have significantly gone up mostly due to ALL the bonds the taxpayers keep voting in. The county can only increase the property tax by 3% a year. My state and county currently have millions and millions of dollars in ten and twenty year voted in bonds.  It's my opinion that we should think about how we vote and what the outcome might be.  Is that 30 million dollar swim center really needed? We could be voting our selves out of a market. I also want to mention that most homeowners have NO idea what they pay in the way of property taxes, escrow accounts write the check.  People that rent also tend to check yes box as they think they don't have to pay the bill. Sorry for the rant, but I feel we did it to our selves.

There're millions of businesses that don't trade publicly and will reinvest through expenses. A successful business MUST spend money if they want to grow.   Expenses such as healthcare, taxes, and overhead are just a few reasons small businesses are failing.  It's also the reason large corporations are choosing to conduct business overseas. The point of going into business is to make money. Why is that a bad thing?  The GOP is trying to monetarily incentivize domestic business. I feel we need to do something as we are losing jobs to other countries faster than we can replace them. If the plan works, the idea is more jobs and spending will help boost supply but mostly demand. I don't think its a fix all or sure deal, but feel its a start in the right direction.  

Personally, we have been spending more money this year than the last ten. Rental properties in my area have skyrocketed since the GOP plan was first announced. 

The latter part of this is, we take even more from small businesses and publicly traded corporations to see what happens.

Post: Reasons Why Real Estate Investors Should NOT Use Bank of the West

Robert M.Posted
  • Investor
  • Dundee, OR
  • Posts 99
  • Votes 158

Thanks for the insight.  I have ran into some stupid banking practices over the years so I can relate.

Post: Impact of new tax bill (Forbes article)

Robert M.Posted
  • Investor
  • Dundee, OR
  • Posts 99
  • Votes 158

speculation is where the money is at.😁

Post: Advise on the new Trump laws

Robert M.Posted
  • Investor
  • Dundee, OR
  • Posts 99
  • Votes 158

We are waiting to see the final draft after approval. As of now,  the bill does have the 5-year owner occupied rule so to avoid capital gains tax. Im betting it will be the rule going forward.