Oceanpointe Investments LLC

[Todd Burton]

I believe this will the be the final and definitive word regarding Oceanpointe Investments LLC, Bert Whalen and by association, their closely allied business partner, Morris Invest.

The Indiana Attorney General has concluded their investigation of Oceanpointe Investments LLC and, along with the Indiana Real Estate Commission, they have “Permanently Revoked” the Real Estate license of Oceanpointe and Bert Whalen as of 12/18/17. Please note; per Indiana Code: 25-34.1-3-2; no person shall, for consideration, sell, buy, trade, exchange, option, lease, rent, manage, list, or appraise real estate or negotiate or offer to perform any of those acts in Indiana or with respect to real estate situated in Indiana, without a license.

Here is a  that has the case details as well as information regarding Mr. Bert Whalen which includes “Renewal Fraud” of his Indiana Real Estate License.

[Joel Wilmoth]

@Todd Burton @Jay Hinrichs  Thought I would clarify because my point was not made well and in the process I stepped right on the licensing law in Indiana.  I have been licensed as a broker in Indiana since 1994 and a salesperson in 1991.  So, unfortunately, I forget more than I remember.  I am pretty sure I am correct, and my point I was trying to make, is that in Indiana OP does not need a real estate license.  Mr. Whalen can own OP (I have no idea what the ownership structure is) and bring on a partner with a Broker licnese and they have all they need to continue operations.  

I suspect the AG ruling may prohibit such an arrangement but my point is, Oceanpointe may continue operations with a truly licnesed broker running the show, in official capacity only.  

Playing the cynic here and I could have done a better job explaining my thoughts on this. 

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Joel Wilmoth  agreed that is a very common scenario.. although management at OP no matter who or what sure seems to be lacking  LOL.. based on all the posts.. no communictions.. rent on vacant units  rehabs paid for not done.. ETC.

Its much like a building company you need one person to be the company GC  .. 

[Daniel G. Sohn]

The accusations and the complaint to the AG is against Oceanpoint and not to Oceanpointe. The letter makes no mention of Mr. Whalen yet his name is invoked in the preface of the post. The complaint is against a company that is currently not incorporated. I’ve had properties with oceanpointe for two years. I can only say great things to about Mr Whalen and Morris.  In pointing out this letter, there are interests that have much to gain.  They seek to confuse and scuttle Mr. Whalen’s business.

I personally have looked into some of the individual accusations and can prove that they are false.  

1. Oceanpointe investments has a license to deal with properties in Indiana. This is a fact that was highlighted in a earlier post with documentation. 

2. I visit most of my properties personally and have inspected them. When they are rented I receive as check in a timely fashion and when they are vacant I do not.  Accusations to the contrary are deliberate and should be documented. 

3.  I agree that there are many sharks in this market.  But be aware of the sources of these accusations.  Many are made by brokers and “pros”, not by private investors like myself. They are displaying more than schadenfreude and gleefully trying to steer investors away.  

In summary, I can only speak of personal experience. I’ve met with Mr.  Whalen and have bought more than 17 units from him. I’ve been extremely impressed with his work ethic and his devotion to his customers. This has translated into a significant increase in my personal wealth. Therefore, my balance sheet is the most cogent argument against these baseless accusations. 

[Todd Burton]

@Daniel G. Sohn:

Hello Daniel. Thanks for joining BiggerPockets and providing your experience. It's great to hear someone is having a positive experience with Oceanpointe but unfortunately, that does nothing for the many private investors who have expressed their concerns, problems and losses because of Oceanpointe and their associates. 

I can guarantee you 100% that the complaint at the AG's office was against Oceanpointe and the document that was provided from their office, while it says "Oceanpoint", that is nothing more than a scrivener's error. The AG's case against Oceanpointe is being re-submitted to be reopened. 

You claim to have facts and request others provide documentation of their claims yet you have not provided any to support your claims. I would encourage you to do so as most people on this forum are very skeptical of the posts of people who have just joined to make a specific rebuttal or support claim and have not provided any personal information or taken the time to fill out any of the information on their profile. 

This is a link to another TV news report on Oceanpointe from just a couple months ago (Nov. 2017). Check out that furnace! Circa 1920?!?

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Daniel G. Sohn  well your the lucky one.. there is post after post of folks that have the opposite experience.. so not sure who is making baseless claims here.. seems like you are ..

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Todd Burton  yup that looks like a freshly rehabbed Morris houses  NOT.. geez oh Pete what a train wreck these guys are .. sad

[Andrew Johnson]

If there was ever a need for a 3 hour BP podcast, it’s this! Were there leading indicators? What do you when you read releases like this? What’s the post-mortem for owners after 30 minutes, 30 days, and 12 months? What’s the per-gallon price on whiskey to help you handle it? How did the TK provider (who sold the property) handle this? And I’m sure there are 500 smarter questions that can be asked.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Andrew Johnson  this show was much more common pre 08... then the out of state rental business kind of cleaned up its act.. flushing out the slick markers who just wanted to make a bunch of dough and could care less about the after math.. and it also flushed out the providers like this company who if all these posts and articles can be taken at face value have taken in money from investors based on sales and marketing promises and simply not delivered either through gross incompetence or greed or both..

Then you take a price point.. you take a marketer who comes up with this Freedom BS and there you go has a big following preys on newbies or investors just starting out.. who are very trusting and who probably think Hey a guy with this big of internet presence would never misrepresent the investment.

Follow that up with BP post with that one guy saying he got a rent check every month and after 3 months of successful rent checks others jump in...

this is just a classic cluster from the top on down in my mind.. and then you take the guy who talked all these people into these investments and he is no where to be seen and has decamped to other markets. to do it all over again.. Sad really..

so either the marketer steps up for these clients or just leaves them to rot. Time will tell I hope some of the previous clients can make posts that say YES MOrris got duped as well but he stepped up and fixed my house as he represented it..

[Andrew Johnson]

@Jay Hinrichs The really fun part (I mean it's sad, but well...sometimes I lack a heart) is watching new accounts come to the defense of these guys.  It reminds me of everytime someone posts something about a 'guru program' that charges $50K for the uber-platinum 6 month direct-access coaching deal mega network.  You get people who magically create an account, have one post, and it's supporting the defamed institution (or affiliate marketing program) or person.  Or they have 8 posts and they are all responses to similar people touting bad experiences.  If anything, for me, it validates anything negative said.  That's not really well reasoned but shill accounts always have that "unintended consequence" for me.

I know that most of the people who arrive at the site are new but there's a massive knowledge gap that does exist from the pre-08 timeframe.  I'd posit that very few people had friends that ended up upside down in their homes.  Had to either pay a mortgage that was more than their home was worth or default and screw up their credit.  Heck, I'd imagine that majority of people here have never even see Erik Estrada on TV pitching NRPI.  Much less understanding what NRPI was doing, how their marketing worked, etc.

But nobody wants to learn about all of those pesky downsides, pseudo scams, etc.  Watching American Greed and seeing real estate themed ponzi schemes isn't "motivating".  Reading on forums that the $50K property purported to rent out for $1,000 per month has a little baggage with it isn't fun.

Freedom numbers are fun, no money down is fun, creative financing is fun...Ol' Andrew Johnson...not fun... 

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Andrew Johnson  not sure what NRPI stands for  but Estrada was a pitch man for California pines project.. the land game as you know is big in the west.  and the land game was the precursor to buying low value mid west assets.

I was just talking to one of my Indy clients this morning.. he said the issue is he has been contacted by 7 or 8 people.. and there is nothing he can do for them.. houses were never touched or if they were not even lipstick just some eye shadow..  He also wondered if Morris actually had a license to sell real estate in Indy ??? I don't know.. maybe some of the folks when they lawyer up will have that run down..

However there are a few PM's that will probably give it a go.

the end result will be some of these folks wont have the reserves to get the homes back in shape and will have to sell them off for what Morris/Oceanpointe paid for them before they ripped the money out of them  and that is 6 to 10k a door.. losing 30k per door .. .this will play out.. I have seen it so many times.. but like you said these same investors could have blown 30k on rich dad seminar or wholesaling guru seminar and ended up in the same place.. lost money.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Todd Burton@Joel Wilmoth  I was talking to another broker there in Indy who has been fielding the same calls..  HELP HELP  ... and he questioned if Morris was even licensed to sell real estate in Indy.. did you guys check on the state website to see if he was.. as you know you cant go on social media and webinars like he has done and sell real estate that it looks like was owned by oceanpointe with out a license.. or then he would have to have an ownership in oceanpointe then that's legal.. but then your an undisclosed principal in the transaction and boy attornies love to get into that one.

and you have all these buyers that could not even tell you who they bought from  .. they just think they bought a MORRIS house.. what a situation. 

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Andrew Johnson  Oh I see now that NRPI is CAL LAND  LOL..

[Andrew Johnson]

@Jay Hinrichs It was National Recreational Properties, Inc.  If memory serves they had more than a few different developments and deals they were pitching all over the U.S.  Some of them were lots of dead subdivisions and some were landlocked lots with no utilities (or roads) and part of the theory was "when you retire in 30 years this place will be booming".  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNiWO5gsms8

How you ever forget these awesome late night TV commercials?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Joel Wilmoth]

@Jay Hinrichs  Right you are.  I have looked for licenses for both Morris and OP.  Nothing comes up.

The real answer likely starts with a HUD from a acquisition. Anybody want to share who the selling entity was on their OP property and if any Realtors were paid?

The probably answer is that it is like a FSBO transaction. Though somebody better vesed than me in license law (lol) may be able to refresh my memory if a business for profit is required to be licensed.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Andrew Johnson  these guys are not the original developers of these places.. they buy them at tax sale from the first failed buyers.. or second failed buyers.. just like those buying from Morris.. many of these folks will end up selling their 40k financial freedom dream investment they paid 40 to 50k for... for about 6 to 10k.. mark my words... I know I see the huds  LOL  although not funny for them..

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Joel Wilmoth  there is no question if Morris did not have an ownership interest in what he was pitching then he was acting as a real estate broker/agent.. and licensure is required its required in all 50 states.. other wise why even have a real estate license at all.. any one could do anything they want like China... this is WAY to high profile to not have the correct licensure.. so it may be vested some where.

but if you look at the Marquis guys.. Clatfelter got nailed for the same thing.

There are simply too many people that are going to be too greatly damaged for complaints to the agencies to not come forth..   And if they don't well then these investors who bought this stuff simply get what they get.. but the reality is Morris was not doing this as a charity  he was getting paid and since I am in this part of the industry I know what these marketers make and that is 5 to 7k a house per sale.. so no doubt Morris probably ripped a million or two out of these deals..

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Joel Wilmoth  just like all gurus  they pitch the dream while they themselves make the millions LOL.

And if anyone thinks any different then they just are not up to speed with how our system works.

[Allen Scott]

Originally posted by @Ross Denman:

Oceanpointe/Morris owns a lot of units and have a lot of units under management. Interestingly enough, I saw some properties owned by Oceanpointe on the auction list for the tax sale this year. 

Great post and great discussion.  You can't place a value on the insight and the experience of the BP community.  I only wish I had leveraged it sooner.

I wanted to chime in on the specific issue referenced above because I experienced this situation in my dealings with Oceanpointe.  

I received a notice of tax sale just after the first of this year.  It came as a complete shock to me.  I purchased the property in July and was completely stunned.  The notice stated that the property would be seized in February if not redeemed - less than a month away.  Fortunately, I was able to determine that the title company had placed money in escrow to cover these fees and penalties.   The issue has now been resolved.

I know a lot of Morris Invest/Oceanpointe clients read these forums and are experiencing similar frustrations.  Hopefully this can help those who be may in a similar situation. 

[Ericka Thomas]

My name is Ericka Thomas. For those of you who invest through Morris Invest and have your property managed by Oceanpointe at one time or another we have likely spoken.

With our growth I have become operations manager for Oceanpointe Investments. To all of our valued customers we are an active business with an active license that we can send you a copy of or that you may go on Indiana licensing website to show our active status. Please call our office at anytime with any questions regarding this matter. If you do not have our number feel free to email me directly. I am not able to post phone numbers or emails in this post, so those of you who are concerned investors more than likely already have our information.

We have had some communication issues in the past, yes. We have heard the concerns and have put things in place that only our clients would know about; ie new client liaison department, specified departments for better communication. However, the allegations of us not having a license are false. Any of our clients who would like a copy are free to call our direct line and ask to speak with our client liaisons and we will gladly get that for you.

Thank you for being a client of Oceanpointe.

I will not reply to this post it is informational only and in order to combat the false comments posted on this thread. 

[Matt K.]

So then how does the letter play in this....

[Jeremy Buttell]

i'm a little confused by this. I looked at the link you posted and its dated 2015, over two years ago. The topic at hand was primarily the failure to deposit $650 into a trust as long as failure to disclose prior DUIs from 6 or 7 year prior. This doesn't seem related and the document with the name blanked out doesn't mention Bert at all. Seems like some information is a bit out of date here. 

"Permanently Revoked” the Real Estate license of Oceanpointe and Bert Whalen as of 12/18/17."

Where is that written? I see nothing on that document about Bert and 12/18/17.

[Caleb Heimsoth]

Ericka Thomas you spelled Indianapolis wrong on your profile...

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Todd Burton@Ross Denman@Joel Wilmoth

Hey guys it took me all of 5 minutes to check on Mr. Whalen who I guess owned or owns Oceanpointe.

from public records what appears to happen is there was a series of Alcohol related offenses both driving and water craft and it appears even a stint in the county jail.

what the state is saying is that he lied on his application and in addition he took rent money in from one tenant and did not put it in his trust account or did not even have a trust account.

so two violations one  lying on your application and trust fund violations.

his personal license according to the pleadings has been permanently revoked.. And the order was upheld.

Now the question is who was his Broker or was he a broker.. and who ACTUALLY owns oceanpointe.

have to dig a little deeper into that.. but its pretty clear and its TOTALLY public record. That anyone can access with about 4 clicks of their mouse if they care to.

[Matt K.]

@Jay Hinrichs

https://www.theindychannel.com/news/call-6-investi...

the plot thickens, from 2 years ago...

Call 6 Investigates visited the office of Ocean Point Property, but no one was there. The company formerly oversaw at least 70 properties in Indianapolis for Texas-based Olympic Capital Group. That business dropped Ocean Point as property manager – apparently before they finished repairs to Scott's home.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Todd Burton@Ross Denman@Ericka Thomas@Joel Wilmoth

ERika also a quick search of the state website shows no license for Oceanpointe investments LLC or Oceanpointe.. you may want to elaborate who Is your managing broker or broker in charge and what is the company name.. so people can verify you guys..

you offering to send a copy of a license is fine.. but really folks should be able to just go on line to the state and verify.. anyone can fudge up stuff these days.. state websites are pretty secure and accurate.

the upholding of the court order was on 1/25/18.. what ever appeal that was done was denied that license for Whalen is permanently revoked. along with that company oceanpointe.. so I guess you guys are changing your name ???? you guys are getting killed on social media it would seem to me you want to step up and be transaparent and this point other wise all the accusations I think we can take as credible.  for me I know the product so there is no denying the risk involved and if investors want to risk low end rentals god bless them.. but when your management is dysfunctional well that leads to all sorts of monitary losses.