Oceanpointe Investments LLC

[Todd Burton]

I believe this will the be the final and definitive word regarding Oceanpointe Investments LLC, Bert Whalen and by association, their closely allied business partner, Morris Invest.

The Indiana Attorney General has concluded their investigation of Oceanpointe Investments LLC and, along with the Indiana Real Estate Commission, they have “Permanently Revoked” the Real Estate license of Oceanpointe and Bert Whalen as of 12/18/17. Please note; per Indiana Code: 25-34.1-3-2; no person shall, for consideration, sell, buy, trade, exchange, option, lease, rent, manage, list, or appraise real estate or negotiate or offer to perform any of those acts in Indiana or with respect to real estate situated in Indiana, without a license.

Here is a  that has the case details as well as information regarding Mr. Bert Whalen which includes “Renewal Fraud” of his Indiana Real Estate License.

[Tyler Mullen]

And they joined bp today

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Tyler Mullen  plus the so called investor charlotte is in Sioux falls  no shortage of cheap D class stuff there why go to indy ???

[Tyler Mullen]

@Jay Hinrichs

I know...  *facepalm*

With the amount of fakery and fraud going on in America nowadays, it’s disheartening.  ACFE surveys it’s members every two years and they estimate 5% of the GDP is fraud.  After being in the industry for over a decade, literally nothing surprises me.  Every scheme I hear of it’s like, “Yup, of course!”

Maybe instead of spending so much of the GDP on posting photos of dinner plates and selfies, one day, “we” could use all this technology to share info better, to catch frauds faster and maybe even deter them from happening in the first place.

I've used sites like fraud.org, to which I'm not affiliated, BBB, I'm also a huge proponent in doing huge amount of DD on people and companies before doing business with them. In many localities public and arrest records are easily searchable, people need to use these resources. Search for previous violations on licensing sites, on FINRA, on MLS's...

Lastly, many fraudsters are able to repeat offend because their victims choose not to press charges or sue for fear of negative publicity.  We need to get over that too imho.

[Michael Thompson]

This is the most nefarious post I have seen on Biggerpockets.  I'm surprised this hasn't been taken down yet.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Originally posted by @Michael Thompson:

This is the most nefarious post I have seen on Biggerpockets.  I'm surprised this hasn't been taken down yet.

wickedevilsinfuliniquitousegregiousheinousvilefoulabominableodiousdepravedmonstrousfiendishdiabolicalunspeakabledespicablevillainous

from Wikipedia  this about sums up these guys as well.

[David Brown]

Does anyone in the Indiana market have a property lawyer they'd recommend?  We wanted to get a second set of eyes on everything as we go through it. Thanks!

[Michael Sarrail]

Interesting to say the least

[Ross Denman]

I really hate to spread anything that I do not know as fact, but I have been concerned about Oceanpointe for almost a year now. I have been getting calls from their dissatisfied clients for some time now, but I usually turn down most of the homes that they have brought my way. I have had 2 different clients of theirs express concerns that something odd was going on and they were afraid that there may have been ponzi scheme type activity going on. Both of the clients told me that they weren't even aware that some of the their homes were vacant, but they were still receiving rent. One of them found out because his insurance sent someone out and they would only insure the property as vacant. Their client asked the insurance company how could it be vacant when he had been receiving rent on the property. The other client of theirs came to town and drove by the property. Oceanpointe had crews in the property working on it, but he had been receiving rent for several months with no indication of vacancy. Really strange stuff. Personally, I would be very hesitant to work with them until some more information comes out. It's simply not worth tying your money to an organization that may be involved in unlawful activities.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Ross Denman  you may remember these guys

https://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/2016/lr23451.htm    this is how it started for them  RENTAL GUARENTEES  house is vacant provider paying rent.. and down the tube it goes.. they could pay rent because they were marking the dogs up like morris and oceanpointe does to massive profits.. and so what if they paid a little of it back.. this gave owners false sense of security.. and it gave them great social media power.. IE someone gets on and says I don't know what your talking about I got my rent.. LOL they may have got their rent but they may not know who paid it.. and as you know a vacant house if not properly insured has a fire which happens often its a total loss and poor owner thinks it rented.

these guys got what they deserve a cease and desist.. the poor investor who fell for the freedom number and morris sales tactics well as you saw first hand going to be some very sad people in a financial way... Although we can have this thread and someone will get on here and say HEY I am thinking about buying through MOrris.. and you just go REALLY can you be that  clueless LOL...

Anyway hopefully with BP allowing the other side of the story to come out we are protecting future investors from a bad bad investment.  And dealing with folks who simply are not ready for prime time.

NOw if Morris steps up and buys all these houses back that were crap and never really rehabbed to save his name.. I will be the first to crow.. but somehow I think that won't happen.

 

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Ross Denman  so in essence with the rental guarntees the provider is simply using the buyers money to pay themselves the rent  LOL>>> PONZI Yes in deed.  just ponzing yourself though.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Ross Denman  Also Ross since the other local PM that outed these guys got death threats by the owner of Oceanpointe I salute you for doing the right thing.. !!! and bringing this stuff to the publics attention..

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Ross Denman  one of the main complaints of Morris/Oceanpointe clients is they could never get responses from them and or copies of leases probably no leases to be had unless they were going to make them up.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Ross Denman  lastly the PRO oceanpointe / Morris camp has gone completely dark since all these revelations..   but I know that's not stopping Morris he just moved to different cities and is now selling hood rats in those cities to the unsuspecting.

[Matt K.]

@Jay Hinrichs will be looking for your posts on the future american greed episode. 

[Matt K.]

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

@Ross Denman  lastly the PRO oceanpointe / Morris camp has gone completely dark since all these revelations..   but I know that's not stopping Morris he just moved to different cities and is now selling hood rats in those cities to the unsuspecting.

 https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/RoseJ5 This seems totally legit lol

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Matt K.  you mean last year when I first got on this soap box.. and now I can say  see TOLD YOU SO

but its really not funny lots of people are going to lose a lot of money and be soured on RE basically forever.. I bet some get into some major marital discourse over it..  ( you know the "I told you we should not do that " )  I have seen this stuff first hand over the years in my lending days..

Its a testament to the internet and social media though..

[Ross Denman]

@Jay Hinrichs I always lover your insight. My biggest fear is what happens to the local investment market place. I have been trying to clean up the messes by a few of those types of investment groups for several years. The owners/investors usually have to spend quite a bit of money and/or take a loss to make these investments viable. We actually turn down more units than we take on because they are in too much distress and in too bad of an area for us to manage properly so I have to send them to property managers who work with those types of properties, I have a hard time believing that anyone can turn those properties around without a lot of time and money.

Oceanpointe/Morris owns a lot of units and have a lot of units under management. Interestingly enough, I saw some properties owned by Oceanpointe on the auction list for the tax sale this year. You would think that a successful turn-key type outfit could pay their bills, and while it's possible that they did redeem the properties, it's not every year that you see successful investment groups giving properties back to the city. It's possible that it was an oversight because I know that they are not very organized. Indianapolis can be a great place to invest and we have a lot of clients who do well and have stable and predictable performance every year, but predatory investment companies can ruin any marketplace. I just hope this doesn't end too poorly and create a lot of problems for the local real estate market.

My regards to @Todd Burton for sharing the things that he has and I hate to hear the stress that this has brought to him. While he is a competitor, I have had clients purchase properties from them and their property management company is probably the most organized I've worked with. We need more reputable and professional people in the industry.

[Matt K.]

Originally posted by @Tyler Mullen:

@Jay Hinrichs

I know...  *facepalm*

With the amount of fakery and fraud going on in America nowadays, it’s disheartening.  ACFE surveys it’s members every two years and they estimate 5% of the GDP is fraud.  After being in the industry for over a decade, literally nothing surprises me.  Every scheme I hear of it’s like, “Yup, of course!”

Maybe instead of spending so much of the GDP on posting photos of dinner plates and selfies, one day, “we” could use all this technology to share info better, to catch frauds faster and maybe even deter them from happening in the first place.

I've used sites like fraud.org, to which I'm not affiliated, BBB, I'm also a huge proponent in doing huge amount of DD on people and companies before doing business with them. In many localities public and arrest records are easily searchable, people need to use these resources. Search for previous violations on licensing sites, on FINRA, on MLS's...

Lastly, many fraudsters are able to repeat offend because their victims choose not to press charges or sue for fear of negative publicity.  We need to get over that too imho.

 BBB is a joke, it's literally a for profit business where you can pay to have bad info gone. Fraud/Scams won't go away till greed goes away...

[Matt K.]

@Ross Denman interesting about the taxes.... rumors swiriling that people are getting rent checks on vacant units, maybe that's the tax fund went.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Ross Denman  well we can give these guys Morris and oceanpointe the benefit of the doubt.. Hey did not know whats going on .. we are totally inept and unorganized  that sells for a while  but this is a scheme..   Just like when that fellow posted the U tube  Morris contacts him says take it down and then we will go fix what we were suppose to do up front.

I get it from the investor point of view that investor really only cares about his property and his money.. so if cooperating with Morris gets what he wants that's fine.. but to me.. its Hey Morris got caught .. admits it and now has to fix it.. the deed was still done and if this client had not flown out there and finally figure it out.. Morris was not going to come to him.

if people can't see through this smoke and mirrors then frankly they deserve to get burned like this.. this is not rocket science so much is out there to do help with due diligence.. why people think that a guy just because he has a big pod cast is some expert.. its that whole rich dad BS  people for some reason think all I have to do is buy rentals and I will be financially free.. not knowing that this is a business and it takes time effort to do right and there is significant risk if done wrong or get hooked up with guys that were flat greedy... Morris has to take ownership here to save his name.. he has to buy properties back that should never have been sold and or pay to get them rentable as he is the one promoting this and leading these people into these highly risky investments.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Matt K.  not paying property tax's is not an issue many folks with lots of properties don't pay all the time or on time..

its expensive money with the penalties.. but I don't see that as a huge issue.. 

the issue is the GROSS misrepresentation of the asset class how it will perform.. and then hooking up with a company that simply takes money into rehab and then it appears by other posters does not spend it on the houses but pockets it.. 

this is far from over.. .your going to get some really pissed off people.. smart people that will realize they got hood winked and they will start filing complaints with the AG  the AG will have to investigate and getting a license revoked or a cease and desist will just be the start of it. 

I wonder who Morris's real estate broker is who is handling all his sales and paying him.. we know Morris since he is out there needs to be licensed he is clearly selling real estate.. I would if I was an aggrieved buyer of this junk be looking into that and I would be looking for a recision .. IE get their money back.. let Morris own all these dumps so he can add to his freedom number   LOL

[Joel Wilmoth]

From a management company that has taken over dozens of OceanPointe properties over the last 6 months.  Do not know where the problem starts or what the connection between Morris and OP is.  All the issues we have encountered are with the OP management.

I also question if the action taken by the Indiana AG will shut down OP.  The action is against Mr. Whalen and not the company.  In Indiana, you just need to plug in another broker as the Principal.  It would be more reassuring if OP was licensed as a real estate company because as it stands, the business may remain operating and I believe they are doing so.   

They operated for years with no licenses so they may continue to do so.  You do not need a license to be a property manager in Indiana.  You do need one to lease a property and there may be other staff with licenses. 

One final word for those of you with OP properties.  OP is named on the tax records and official records as the address for your property.  In some cases it is in care of you as the owner.  In others it just lists the owners name and OP's address.  The reason owners are blown away when they find out the condition of their properties is they are not in the chain for any official notices from the Health Department.  I recommend you go on line and make sure this is not you and that the address is correct for contact to you directly.  Also be sure that the Health Dept. does not have existing claims by calling them (I had the number in here but BP will not let me post it-google Marion County Health Department).  

Fines accruing due to these notices going unresponded is the biggest immediate shock owners we work with receive. 

[Todd Burton]

@Joel Wilmoth: You do not need a license to be a property manager in Indiana.  You do need one to lease a property and there may be other staff with licenses. 

You do have to have a Real Estate License to manage in Indiana unless you are the property owner or an employee of the owner.

Indiana Code: 25-34.1-3-2; no person shall, for consideration, sell, buy, trade, exchange, option, lease, rent, manage, list, or appraise real estate or negotiate or offer to perform any of those acts in Indiana or with respect to real estate situated in Indiana, without a license.

[Joel Wilmoth]

@Todd Burton  thanks for pointing that out.  You need a real estate license.  There is not a manager license.

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Joel Wilmoth  a little off pointe  ( no pun intended) but I think Maryland might be the ONLY state in the country were you can manage properties for others without a RE license.. in Indy for sure you need one... or one in your organization who is responsible for signing the leases and controlling the trust account.. but after all of these posts.. can you imagine millions of dollars of rent money under these guys control..  scary