Mentoring programs

[Nancy Roth]

Hi, I'm considering joining a mentoring program run by a successful local wholesaler to help me develop a wholesaling business. In addition to counseling and reinforcement, the mentor would offer me contract forms, access to a wider network of contacts, and a legal and settlement team. But it's quite expensive: 4-14K up front (depending on level of access) for a year of mentoring, plus 50% of the first $100K of successful deals.

I have been learning a great deal on my own, but I think a good mentor could help me speed up the learning process. Speed is of the essence: I have no paying job at the moment. Cash is also scarce.

I'd like the feedback of the readers of this forum. How many of you have used a mentor, and how well did it work out for you? How much direct access did the program give you? Do you think it was it worth what you paid?

East Coaster

[Jeff S.]

I truly think the wholesaling ship has sailed, Nancy Roth. With virtually no barriers to entry, it seems everyone and their brother wants in, competing with the rehabbers, hedge funds, and other well-established wholesalers.

The most skilled and successful home buyers I know right now are those rehabbing and flipping the homes they buy; not those wholesaling them. They have the skills you need as well as the requisite resources and contacts. Their problem is they currently have to evaluate 150 homes (and climbing) to buy one.

With your license, training, and apparent excellent communication skills, you might consider finding the most successful flippers in your area and offer to help them for free in return for training. I can’t think of a faster, real world, less expensive way to learn the business. As long as you’re reasonably loyal, reliable, and willing to work your butt off, having more eyeballs scanning, driving, and evaluating properties is something I know many flippers would welcome.

Your $14k is also barely enough to perhaps fund the rehab side of a very simple paint and carpet flip. Perhaps partner with your potential flipping teammates and actually make a return on your money instead of spending it?

Lastly, it really seems you made up your mind. Your questions above are vague enough (Have you used a mentor?, How did it work out?) that any amount of positive answers will validate your decision. Is that your goal here? Instead, why don’t you ask for a list of non-cynical questions you should ask your potential “mentors” to establish your relationship with them.

Good luck either way.

Jeff

[Nancy Roth]

Just so you know, I'm taking your advice very seriously, and looking around for alternative--and not such ridiculously expensive--sources of education and skill-building--and I think I might have found one. I'll let you know what happens.

Thanks again to everyone for contributing to this interesting conversation.

[Joshua Dorkin]

I was just thinking about this thread and wanted to chime in. How many people could someone realistically mentor at once time while staying fully engaged with their business?

I can't imagine personally mentoring more than a small handful of people if I was going to do it properly . . .

I'm curious to hear how many mentees the average "coach" or "mentor" in the industry takes on?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the number is far more than a handful.

That's what troubles me.

Thoughts?

[Bill Gulley]

Very good question Josh! IMO;

I have engaged with beginners and seasoned Realtors, mainly you have three issues, the level of understanding and competence of a "student" and volume of business they (and you) are faced with and the degree of assistance you are offering.

On the persoanl side, I made the mistake long ago to help newbie Realtors expecting them to perfom. You can waste alot of time with someone who just doesn't have it in them. Unlike the gurus who say anyone can do it, in order to broaden their market, I'd say that just isn't true, not evreyone is cut out for real estate. I enjoy helping others but I can't really rely on their ability to partner most of the time.

If Marc F or Don K were to ask me to assist them with some transaction, it would be rather simple communicating suggestions or advice. (Picking on them because they are sharp guys, many others here are as well). I don'thave to explain what an assignment of collateral interst is, so that's time saved.

One reason most of the guru types push one system is that can't take care of and manage anything that comes along. If you're only doing lease/options, you can break that down into steps to accomplish and pretty well make it a mechanical process. You really can't jump from one type of deal, a commercial wharehouse that has issues to a rehab then to an intallment transaction like you can if you're just fitting round pegs in round holes. So, for a volume of deals they need to be standardized.

Another issue is your staff and support. I can manage hundreds or more from a macro position, but when any human begins to micro manage others, about 30 can be tuff to do, depends on the details required. You can delegate to others, but if you're a one person shop, you have physical and time constraints. If your service is to provide any and all kinds of deals that can drop in half. This is from dealing in a position of responsibility for the deal. Gurus, or others in the teaching side who don't take real responsibility for a deal but just push a product, not being personally involved, can spend the day on the phone with about 50 in the hopper a week. You can easily be on the phone 10 or 12 hourse a day with 20 students.

I believe the military for example, in adminstrative tasks, identifies that the average leader can manage no more than 12 others and effectively perform. A battalion commander can supervise 12 junior officers, a squad leader about 12 in his squad.

But, Josh, you're right, to hold hands and walk a new investor through a transaction, I wouldn't want more than about 6 in the pipeline. That means, to make decent money, in many residential deals, you need the lion's share of the profits. That's not going to get a newbie off to much of a running start on their own.

Newbies really need to get with someone who does not coach or assist as their business, that expert should have other means of making money and serve just a few, better yet, one at a time.

And, now off of the "how many can one manage" issue;

Paying someone for "contracts" is pretty silly. There is no contract in small commercial or residential RE that can't be accomplished off of the state standard contract and addendums. When you actually have a deal and you can identify that you can actually perfom at a price, you can sit down with an attorney and pay most $500 to fine tune the agreement and pay them at or after closing. And then guess what, you now have contract terms and considtions that you can adopt in similar deals for years! To hear some say they have time and money and research and attorney fees in setting up some RE "system" and it's worth thousands of dollars is a load of horsefeathers!

And now to Nancy, D.C. is a big place, there have to be sophistacted Realtors there. I understand staying at arms length from most of them, but there have to be some who know what you want to do or understand your goals. Your best efforts should be used to identify those local experts and buddy up with them to learn, IMO. If you have funds, pay them hourly for you to pick their brain, don't mooch off of them. Most will answer questions and point you in the right direction.

In RE, you really need to be rather bold, outgoing, willing to take personal and financial risks, have the ability to communicate effectively, be personable with anyone for a short period of time to deal with them, be able to adapt and associate rules, laws and methods to varied opportunities and have a mature business judgment. Those are close to being in order of impotance as well. :)

[Mike Gardner]

First Mistake, I am in a hurry, that is not going to happen. As I recall Real Estate is a process.

Personally, find a job and make Real Estate a Part time adventure... Read, Read, and then Read some more... You will Get it..

$14,000.00 plus 50% of a deal, that is an expensive Education.... How much are other Mentors charging, and what about finding the best Mentor, you can find , if you still need one.

Slow down, get another job, and why not make use of your Real Estate License while you are at it....

[Jerry Puckett]

Originally posted by Joshua Dorkin:

I was just thinking about this thread and wanted to chime in. How many people could someone realistically mentor at once time while staying fully engaged with their business?

Thoughts?

(Josh, James Vermillion hope this doesn't set off the spam alert, just trying to answer the question)

I do not have a "program" to sell. I ended up doing some coaching after the Denver conference because my phone started ringing off the hook and I saw an opportunity to expand to other areas...even out of state.

Basically, my model works like this: engage me to do your marketing for you, and the coaching comes included. You begin by learning how to market; when calls come in you learn how to take them. When a deal is struck you learn contracts, when the deal closes....well, you learn what success feels like. In the last 6 months, I've gotten 4 from BP to that level. I had one other that bailed.

Those 4 were not all at once, but looking at the way it panned out, I would say I could handle up to 4 at one time and still stay fully engaged in DFW.

[Bill Gulley]

Some view RE as a science, others as an art.

You can teach someone to play a trumpet, that does not make them a composer or a conductor. To be a composer or the conductor you need to understand music theory, you don't need theory to play the horn.

To write your own music (or deal) you need the theory behind it. Someone who teaches another to play a horn doesn't need a great understanding of music theory.

I can play the horn and conduct and I try to convey both.

Anyone with hands can strum the guitar, without talent you won't be very good at it. Not everyone has the talent. You can pay for lessons for years and never play one song properly. :)

[Jerry Puckett]

Originally posted by Bill Gulley:

Anyone with hands can strum the guitar, without talent you won't be very good at it. Not everyone has the talent. You can pay for lessons for years and never play one song properly. :)

Just so. You didn't happen to read this thread, http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/93/topics/74141-how-can-i-distinguish-a-better-wholesaling-mentor-program-from-another# where I compared music lessons and golf to REI did you?

[Bill Gulley]

Nope, didn't see it. If I recall Jerry, you played trumpet, I wasn't picking on ya. We have made these analogies before, at least I have. My pricipal instrument was french horn, but played all brass and a few others. LOL

[Rachel H.]

I'd be cautious with any program trying to sell you on having access to their network. Yes, it is a starting point but I don't think it should be the focus point.

When I first started out, I remember there were groups that would try to sell packages to folks on their "training programs" but stressing the importance of having access to their network so that you already have a team to begin with. In all honesty, knowing how to hire good people is part of running a business and a skill that is definitely learned through experience. Without this experience, it's hard to hire good people. It may sound easy but it's not — finding good people and building a great team is probably one of the hardest things to do but is definitely worth the time and effort.

One thing I have learned is that sometimes it's a personality conflict. Some folks use certain people because they work well together personality wise. Though, it does not necessarily mean another person who works with them will have the same experience — it may not be the case.

I've talked to folks who have given me recommendations in the past for specific team members who work great with them but in some cases for me it just has not been the same and vice versa. All in all, it usually is the case that different personality types and styles of doing things conflict.

Hope that helps!

[Nancy Roth]

To update the group, I wanted to mention that I have recently identified someone with whom I'm hoping to form a mentoring relationship.

I think he meets many of the criteria laid out in the discussion we have had. He rarely mentors and he's clearly not pushing a program. He has been very successful as a real estate wholesaler/rehabber/investor and heads an REI group, which is how I met him. After hearing him deliver a presentation about negotiation skills I asked him to recommend someone who would help me improve my own skills (and unlearn some self-defeating mental habits that made negotiating difficult for me)--and to my surprise he said he would consider working with me himself.

I do have to pay him something, on the order of $1500 for a year of guidance, which is modest compared to the fees of many other so-called RE mentors. He does not need it as a key revenue source. I think he just wants his students to have some skin in the game. He also has no interest in taking a cut of any deals I bring in.

So we have discussed this in detail, and now have to work out the expectations on both sides of the relationship, and I hope we can come to an agreement. Will let everyone know if it works out; I'm not taking anything for granted.

Again, I'd like to express my appreciation for the comments from this forum, which gave me a measuring stick by which to judge the merits of the mentoring opportunities I'd encountered. I've come a long way since my opening post, when I was considering signing up for a very expensive mentoring program, which, in addition to the upfront fee ($4-14K), would have cost me 50% of the first $100K I earned during my work with him. I feel like I dodged a bullet in large part because of the cautions this forum delivered. My humble thanks to all.

[James Vermillion]

Great Nancy Roth, sounds like you found a great opportunity to hone your skills without a huge financial burden...keep us updated on how things go and if you get what you anticipated out of the relationship. This thread could serve as a great example of how instead of paying thousands for a program, you sought and found someone with the skills you are looking for and the ability to work with you.

[Mike Hill]

Completely Disagree with criticism of a mentoring program and here's why: First, let's assume that you've already done your due diligence and confirmed that your mentor is the real deal and actively doing deals. I would also recommend going with someone local.

It's NOT about what the mentor will teach you. Honestly, you could learn everything you need to know online these days. But it's more about having someone to keep you accountable and on track. Also, a good mentor will have a network that is priceless (buyers, partners, title company, attorneys, other investors, etc).

$4k - $14k is the price of one or two successfully completed deals. So if your mentor will help you get a deal that much faster, do the math, it's worth it.

When I started my mentoring, I didn't have the money to get started, but my mentor agreed to break up payments for me and I decided that I had to change my mindset: I needed to mentally get to a point where the $8,000 did not seem like a lot of money. Otherwise, how could I ever see myself as a millionaire? You have to change your mindset/perspective and attitude towards money - you need to see it in your mind and believe it before you can make it happen.

Also, I invested over $200,000 in my undergraduate education at Duke University and it hasn't made me as much as the $8000 investment in my real estate education.

Another student of my mentor said he was embarrassed to tell people that he invested $25k in mentoring b/c he would hear the usual talk of "scams" etc. But since then, his net worth is up $180k so he's not ashamed anymore :)

Ultimately depends on your goals. if you want to flip a house a year then don't do it. If you want to work in this full-time I think it's a must.

Think about it, even the best athletes need coaches and mentors, why would you not?

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Mike Hill:

It's NOT about what the mentor will teach you. Honestly, you could learn everything you need to know online these days. But it's more about having someone to keep you accountable and on track.

If you need to pay someone thousands of dollars to keep you accountable, you're probably not motivated enough to be successful in this business. There are plenty of ways to keep yourself accountable without spending money. Tell your friends and family or start a blog (my blog was a great motivator for me, since I knew lots of people were watching to see if I'd succeed or fail).

Also, like I've said before, a "mentor" isn't someone who charges for their services. A mentor is someone you have a relationship with who has a vested interest in seeing you succeed -- but that interest is not monetary, it's personal.

Someone who charges money in return for expertise is a coach or consultant.

If you want to work in this full-time I think it's a must.

A must? I'm proof that's not the case.

Not saying paid coaching is bad (a good coach is certainly worth more than you'll pay him), but I know plenty of people who have been successful without paying for coaching, so it's clearly not a "must."

[Randy F.]

My dad used to tell me... "The only way thru it, is thru it". In my early years I was always looking for the quick fix. The grand schemes I came up with were quite comical looking back, but at the time and in the middle of it all, they made perfect sense. Why would I go thru it if I can go around it? One of the things he was trying to teach me is that often the process one goes thru to attain a goal is much more important than the prize.

The problem I have with the gurus and the high dollar mentors, is that they prey upon quick fix, easy money mentaliy. Knowledge is power and the vast majority of people who recognize that they need the knowledge, do not posess the self confidence and drive to go "thru it". They are too easily convinced that they can buy the knowledge and shortcut the learning process, and the gurus will gladly take their money whether they have the capacity to put the knowledge into practice or not.

After several posts by Nancy, it was obvious that she's a pretty sharp cookie with the hootspa to getter done. And it sounds to me like what is lacking is just the confidence that comes thru action taken that creates even the smallest of successes. Even failures can provide positive reinforcement because the lessons learned in failures are often the most powerful.

I truly resent the gurus and the "mentors" who sell their success. When so many are out of work and desperate to get something going fast, these guys do much more harm than good. The percentage of those who succeed in real estate investing is likely as dismal as those who succeed in multi-level marketing. Somewhere in the single digits. And being that they likely understand this, its my opinion that they are nothing but crooks.

Im so glad Nancy found one who sounds to be a true mentor... Someone who has worked "thru it", achieved success, and is willing to give back for all the help they received along the way by helping others acheive the same success.

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Randy F.:

The problem I have with the gurus and the high dollar mentors, is that they prey upon quick fix, easy money mentaliy.

Exactly...

I don't generally hear the big-name coaches saying things like, "Investing is really hard. You're going to have to put in a lot of time and effort to succeed and even then, not everyone is successful."

Most of the big name coaches are selling a dream, not a reality.

But again, I'm certain that's not true for all coaches/gurus...I'm sure there are lots of good ones out there who provide a great, honest service to new investors. Just like in real estate investing in general, the many can give the few a really bad name.

[Will Barnard]

Selling a dream AND delivering a nightmare is more accurate.

[Chris Clothier]

J Scott - I think it would be good to read back through the thread beginning in last October where you make a distinction that way too often gets blurred - including the last few comments.

There is a difference between a mentor and a coach. There is a difference between a coach and a learning program. And not all of these can be summed up by the boogie man word "guru". So many people, sometimes by the speakers themselves and sometimes by those promoting them, attach the word guru when describing a person. A guru in many cultures and industries is a great honor. In real estate, it is often hijacked and therefore definitely carries a bit of negativity to it for people who have been in the industry for a while.

Without rambling much more - a mentor should be just that. A person you can turn to for advice that can help you navigate tough decisions and I have not heard of too many paid mentors. Not if they are truly a mentor. Why would you do that anyway??? A mentor should be someone that you personally have a great deal of respect for and often you already have some sort of relationship. Mentors get as much out of a relationship as the mentee so there is not need for them to seek payment.

A coach on the other hand is someone you pay and again, you should only pay someone that you truly respect and know the value they will give you.

Lastly, a program - and sometimes these are the most costly - is something that you enter much like you would enter a college degree - knowing that the juice is worth the squeeze meaning you know exactly what you are going to get on the other end.

Its unfortunate that all three often get lumped into one category so i would advise people to read the early part of this thread where you broke this distinction down as well.

See ya - Chris

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Chris Clothier:

J Scott - I think it would be good to read back through the thread beginning in last October where you make a distinction that way too often gets blurred - including the last few comments.

Agreed. I made that distinction again a couple hours ago at the bottom of the last page...

Mentors are in a completely different class than coaches/consultants/"gurus" simply because they aren't in it for the money -- they're in it to help someone they have a relationship and non-financial vested interest in.

Also, as I've said repeatedly, when it comes to coaches/consultants/"gurus", they run the gamut also. Many are successful investors who see an opportunity to make extra money (or most of their money) by providing an honest and valuable service to new investors -- they care about the results as much as they care about the money (and they should because better results gets them future money).

Unfortunately, many of these people care more about the short-term money than they do about the results their students are seeing. They don't care about the results they're getting, as long as they're making lots of money. These guys give the entire teaching industry a bad name.

While it may not always hold true, I've found that a few of the common distinctions between the good and bad coaches/consultants/"gurus" are as follows:

- The good guys still make lots of money investing in real estate. It's hard to keep up with the changing markets, trends and rules if you're not actually in the business, and if you rely on coaching to make the bulk of your money, there's pressure to make lots of money from coaching regardless of your student's results. If you have other sources of income, I imagine it's less pressure to make as much as possible via coaching.

- The good guys tend to be more local than national. Perhaps it goes back to the point above -- if you're doing this on a national basis, it's probably less likely that you're still making any significant money investing. Not saying this is always true, but I'm guessing it's generally true.

- The good guys tend to be more reasonably priced that the bad guys, and will tend to tie their pricing to the student's success. If you vet your students well and only accept the ones that are truly likely to succeed, there's no reason you can collect fees on the back-end when the student does some deals and can more readily afford it. If a coach needs his big payday upfront, that doesn't imply to me that he's very confident the student will stick around long enough to be successful. If that's the case, (I believe) the ethical thing to do is to tell the student, "I don't think you have what it takes and I don't want to take your money. If you still want my coaching, I need your money upfront." If the student still goes for with that warning in place, caveat emptor.

- The good guys will spend time on-site with their students at real properties that the students are considering buying (or have bought). The value of a coach is real world help, and if you're just providing written training materials, DVD and phone support, you're not offering much more than what someone can get for free on the Internet.

Personally, I couldn't imagine ever coaching for money. The amount I believe is reasonable to charge isn't enough to get me motivated to do that work. It would only be worthwhile to me to do it if I were to scale the business (i.e., become a full-time coach). But, if I were to become a full-time coach, I think I'd find myself losing touch with the real-world aspects of the business. Think about how much has changed in the past 6 years (and again in the past 12 months). I've had to change my strategy several times in that period of time, and if I weren't actively investing, there is no way I could adequately prepare students for the real world.

That's why I have an issue with most large-scale coaches...

Again, all of this is my opinion...anyone is free to listen or to ignore me...

[Chris Clothier]

Originally posted by J Scott:

[quote=Chris Clothier
Again, all of this is my opinion...anyone is free to listen or to ignore me...

LOL - some would say you give away too much for free! I'm sure I've said it before and the next person readin this will see it...but, I really appreciate your input and even view point. Doesn't matter on if I agree or disagree with any of your posts on any topics - I just appreciate you enjoy and care enough to keep making well thought out postings. Good stuff all the way around -

Chris

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Chris Clothier:

I really appreciate your input and even view point. Doesn't matter on if I agree or disagree with any of your posts on any topics - I just appreciate you enjoy and care enough to keep making well thought out postings. Good stuff all the way around -

Likewise...

Btw, if you ever get into paid coaching, I have a feeling I'd endorse you... :)

I know you have family that does paid coaching...if they have your level of professionalism and integrity, I'd endorse them too...

[Bill Gulley]

Great comments, and while there are some good ones, seems there are more bad or poor ones. You may see some make thier qualifications based on the time they have been doing some strategy, which is poor ruler to measure competence as if you do things that are illegal or unethical and not get caught (even if they did) they could easily continue and end up teaching others with the same issues. I've seen the claims of how much some have made, totally unverifiable, and I'd say anyone working hard in RE for 15 years should make a million, no big deal. Then there is the number of deals claimed as the basis for experience, that mirrors the years in the business.

I'd say the best way to judge a coach or mentor is by thier actions and the way they conduct business, here on BP we can see thier attitudes and how they may display actual knowledge or if they simply hammer away on systems and programs with little in depth information being given.

Then, as has been mentioned, the fluff. How to find millions of properties, set up incomes long into the future and other grand claims to hook the unaware. I put this bunch in the scammer department. The more the fluff usually the worse it really is, after all, if it were really good, there would be no need for the fluff. :)

[Mike LaCava]

Hey Chris you summed it up great by distinguishing the difference between a coach, mentor and programs. They are not all the same like you said but they get tossed around and lumped in together. There was a pretty heated debate a while ago on wholesaler’s and I spoke my piece on that. Coaching is know different than any other profession in that there are good one’s and bad one’s and you should do your best diligence in hiring one if you chose so. Just like wholesaling. I am not embarrassed to say I spent thousands and paid $8000 for my first online coaching program 5 years ago. Like you and the Carlton sheets program, it may not have been the best but it got me to take action. Knowing what I know now I would of seek out a local successful investor and offered to pay him or her to teach me or find one that provided coaching services. The point is I didn't know any better back then and was only exposed more or less by the tv ads. I am now a full time investor & have a full time acquisition manager and an operations manager and my business is going great. I offer on a limited basis some coaching and I work extremely hard for my students & treat them like they are family and help them better than myself because I care about there success. I have done my share of mentoring for sure and help as many as I possibly can with the time I have all for FREE and I know you do the same. The funny thing is my first student approached me and asked me to teach him & he would pay me. That’s how HFS started. I am now seeking a coach to help me on my next level of growth for my company. Can I do it without one? sure I can but why when a great coach or advisor can get you there more quickly & hold you accountable. Especially in real estate as your first deal could wipe you out & never allow you to do a second.

I agree that so many programs by some of the national guys sell the dream and most are disappointed with the high price training they get.
I believe so many people look for that easy button and even when they have a decent program they just don't want to put the effort in or they get denied the first few times & say it doesn't work.

I will end on this. Many people that have a high priced college degree and learned for 4 years and more doesn't guarantee them success. At the end of the day only you can do that for yourself & if you can get some help through a paid coach, mentor, advisor, program or whatever then do it. Just do your due diligence when seeking out anyone to help you. That why BP is so great!!!

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Mike LaCava:

I am now seeking a coach to help me on my next level of growth for my company. Can I do it without one? sure I can but why when a great coach or advisor can get you there more quickly & hold you accountable. Especially in real estate as your first deal could wipe you out & never allow you to do a second.

I would highly recommend a good business coach (or a good business school) to help you achieve this. In many cases, scaling a business is more about process, cash flow management, delegation, good sourcing, and managing overhead than it is about scaling the operations...and I think this is the case with most real estate businesses.

So, a good business coach is likely to be more helpful than a successful investing coach.

Just my $.02...

[Chris Clothier]

Originally posted by J Scott:

Originally posted by Mike LaCava:

I am now seeking a coach to help me on my next level of growth for my company. Can I do it without one? sure I can but why when a great coach or advisor can get you there more quickly & hold you accountable. Especially in real estate as your first deal could wipe you out & never allow you to do a second.

I would highly recommend a good business coach (or a good business school) to help you achieve this. In many cases, scaling a business is more about process, cash flow management, delegation, good sourcing, and managing overhead than it is about scaling the operations...and I think this is the case with most real estate businesses.

So, a good business coach is likely to be more helpful than a successful investing coach.

Just my $.02...

This is one of the reasons that this debate goes round and round with no real answer beyond doing due diligence and knowing EXACTLY what you expect to get our of spending your money. Many of the "coaches" and programs today purport to teach everything...and some of them actually do. They are not talking simply real estate, but also entrepreneurship and business development.

LIke I said, I know some of them do just that and can be extremely valuable. But, it is getting harder and harder to tell who is legitimate and who is following a well scripted marketing plan to convince people to buy their product, system or program. It really is a convoluted mess and it makes it extremely difficult for anyone interested in hiring a coach or joining a coaching program to distinguish between one that will help them and one that will fleece them. When the coaching is about business development, but wrapped around a real estate business, the attraction is like a bug to a light. It is very appealing, but also can be very confusing to the consumer and to commentators on forums. It is almost like we have to ask the question like what in the heck are we talking about? Real estate, business, personal development, etc...

I think this will always be a discussion as long as you know some consumers are being taken advantage of.